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Brexit matters

najaB

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The opposite of capitalism is democracy...
Off topic, but these are not opposites. Capitalism is primarily an economic system, democracy is a political one. While there is overlap, they aren't the same thing.

"protectionism". You have hit the nail on the head.
Imagine that. An organisation looking out for the best interests of its members. Funny that we didn't have any issues with EU protectionism when we were in the EU - we actually helped to write the rules that we're railing against now.
 
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brad465

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Off topic, but these are not opposites. Capitalism is primarily an economic system, democracy is a political one. While there is overlap, they aren't the same thing.


Imagine that. An organisation looking out for the best interests of its members. Funny that we didn't have any issues with EU protectionism when we were in the EU - we actually helped to write the rules that we're railing against now.
What's interesting is the protectionism argument is a left-wing reason for not wanting to be in the EU, and there are some right-wing supporters who accuse the EU of this without probably realising. There certainly were left-wing arguments for leaving (and would explain those in the red wall voting leave), but these never materialised because the right wing arguments had the money, media coverage and corrupt interests to go with them.

An example of this is journalist Grace Blakeley is eurosceptic but is arguably the most anti-capitalist journalist in the UK and most of her journalism is on the latter than on the EU specifically. She's also where I got the argument that democracy should be promoted over capitalism, and believes herself the opposite is not communism or whatnot.
 

REVUpminster

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Socialism and the EU don't go together. Jeremy Corbyn knew this hence his opposition to the EU until he became leader and suppress his views.

As for protection rackets it is the members that have to pay and not the people outside the racket. In the 2008 crash we bailed out Ireland while Germany bailed out Greece so they could continue to buy goods. Ireland have just about paid the UK back but Greece may never be able to, and god knows who Italy and Spain owe money to.

Britain did alright out of the EU because we have businessmen that could work the system, but they got rich, lazy and complacent and now have to start over again; which they will.
 

najaB

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In the 2008 crash we bailed out Ireland while Germany bailed out Greece so they could continue to buy goods. Ireland have just about paid the UK back but Greece may never be able to, and god knows who Italy and Spain owe money to.
Alternative view: Germany and UK gave Greece and Ireland the room to breathe while they restructured their economies. The alternatives - either complete economic collapse or and IMF-led restructuring would have been a *lot* worse.
 

JonasB

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I don’t think that will happen. Today there are Dutch elections and probably a new pan-European party will be voted in parliament for the first time. This party is openly supporting a United States of Europe.
Isn't D66 federalists as well?
 

brad465

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Socialism and the EU don't go together. Jeremy Corbyn knew this hence his opposition to the EU until he became leader and suppress his views.
I do wonder how the campaign would have gone had Corbyn retained those views for it: the way the right wing and left wing factions fighting for leave on two fronts would have made it a very divided looking side, which could have improved remain's chances of winning. The reality was the right wing arguments for leaving (deregulation and speculative gains from currency crashes) would have drowned out left wing arguments because the former had the money and media consensus, and may also be why Corbyn (half-heartedly) turned to remain as it was better than a right wing brexit, although if true he didn't speak up about the deregulation goals.
 

21C101

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I do wonder how the campaign would have gone had Corbyn retained those views for it: the way the right wing and left wing factions fighting for leave on two fronts would have made it a very divided looking side, which could have improved remain's chances of winning. The reality was the right wing arguments for leaving (deregulation and speculative gains from currency crashes) would have drowned out left wing arguments because the former had the money and media consensus, and may also be why Corbyn (half-heartedly) turned to remain as it was better than a right wing brexit, although if true he didn't speak up about the deregulation goals.
I think Anthony Wedgewood Benn elucidated most clearly my reasons for voting out. Don't underestimate the impact of Labour leave, even if it had little or no support from the party heirachy.
 

JonasB

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Not to the same extent. They are not so clear about wanting a United States of Europe anymore, but are clearly pro-EU.

Thank you, I'm no expert on Dutch politics but my impression is that the Dutch voted even more pro-EU than last time, with VVD, D66 and Volt doing well. A result of Brexit maybe?
 

37424

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Thank you, I'm no expert on Dutch politics but my impression is that the Dutch voted even more pro-EU than last time, with VVD, D66 and Volt doing well. A result of Brexit maybe?
Don't tell the Daily Express that according to them Holland, Sweden, Italy and just about every other country are ready to leave the EU:E
 

biko

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Thank you, I'm no expert on Dutch politics but my impression is that the Dutch voted even more pro-EU than last time, with VVD, D66 and Volt doing well. A result of Brexit maybe?
VVD is not really pro-EU or anti actually. I don’t think there is a fundamental change. Indeed D66 and Volt won, but also two other anti-EU parties won, so it seems to be no net change. But overall the Netherlands are still clear pro-EU.
 

REVUpminster

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So the EMA have approved the Oxford vaccine BUT they want blood clots included as a side effect. That's a sop to Merkel and Macron. Why no mention of blood clot side effects of Phizer. This is all so political not medical.

Will there be a rush to take it in Europe? The politicians have done the damage.
 

brad465

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So the EMA have approved the Oxford vaccine BUT they want blood clots included as a side effect. That's a sop to Merkel and Macron. Why no mention of blood clot side effects of Phizer. This is all so political not medical.

Will there be a rush to take it in Europe? The politicians have done the damage.
I can understand why Macron would want to politicise it but for Merkel there must be less of an incentive given she's on her way out regardless; her party can then try and claim to a fresh start (albeit the length of time the CDU has been in is of a length that voters get bored of them anyway).
 

edwin_m

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How do you delete a post.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Boris gets the blame for excess deaths for taking the scientists advice. Will Macron and Merkel be blamed for ignoring the scientists advice?
Scientists were advising a lockdown in September. It didn't happen for three months.
 

jon0844

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Scientists were advising a lockdown in September. It didn't happen for three months.

How long did it take for us to protect our borders and put people into hotels instead of sending them onto the Piccadilly Line with only a promise of going straight home and staying there for a week?

And then making no real attempt to check anyway.

You can argue that Boris did do the right thing eventually, but in some cases we're talking the best part of a year to do so - and even then make a complete mess of things, like having people to be quarantined queuing with everyone else upon arrival.
 

REVUpminster

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How could you put 3 million returning people into hotels. They had to be trusted to self isolate if they had symptoms. The present lack of air flights has meant only thousands have to be put in hotels. This country is an international hub.
 

najaB

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How could you put 3 million returning people into hotels.
You couldn't. But they could have been more strict on follow-up of those who were required to isolate. I know several people who traveled into the UK during 2020 and not one of them had any follow-up at all.
 

AlterEgo

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You couldn't. But they could have been more strict on follow-up of those who were required to isolate. I know several people who traveled into the UK during 2020 and not one of them had any follow-up at all.
Yup. I travelled into and out of the UK for work several times during the pandemic and was not contacted once after entering, despite filling in the passenger locator forms correctly. I know several people in the same position.
 

REVUpminster

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Yup. I travelled into and out of the UK for work several times during the pandemic and was not contacted once after entering, despite filling in the passenger locator forms correctly. I know several people in the same position.
And did you self isolate?
 

DerekC

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So the EMA have approved the Oxford vaccine BUT they want blood clots included as a side effect. That's a sop to Merkel and Macron. Why no mention of blood clot side effects of Phizer. This is all so political not medical.

Will there be a rush to take it in Europe? The politicians have done the damage.

I can understand why Macron would want to politicise it but for Merkel there must be less of an incentive given she's on her way out regardless; her party can then try and claim to a fresh start (albeit the length of time the CDU has been in is of a length that voters get bored of them anyway).
It was interesting to hear Professor Andrew Pollard (Oxford Vaccine Group) on BBCR4 "Today" this morning - unfortunately they don't do transcripts but you should be able to listen to it on this link from later today/tomorrow:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj9z/episodes/player

He made it pretty clear that what has been happening in the EU is not political and he welcomed it as part of the system working as it should - in other words that you identify what might be a problem, follow it up to see whether the balance of risk remains in favour of continuing the rollout (which it is) and then continue investigating to see whether there is real evidence of a causal link.

Trying to get back to topic, I wonder if this "us and them" view of the European mainland (we are in Europe too) will in the end be the biggest downside of Brexit. They make cockups for sure, but so do we. One of the vaccines we both depend on was developed in Germany, the other in the UK. What's not to co-operate about?
 

21C101

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It was interesting to hear Professor Andrew Pollard (Oxford Vaccine Group) on BBCR4 "Today" this morning - unfortunately they don't do transcripts but you should be able to listen to it on this link from later today/tomorrow:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qj9z/episodes/player

He made it pretty clear that what has been happening in the EU is not political and he welcomed it as part of the system working as it should - in other words that you identify what might be a problem, follow it up to see whether the balance of risk remains in favour of continuing the rollout (which it is) and then continue investigating to see whether there is real evidence of a causal link.
It is political because behind it lies a political philosophy, the Precautionary Principle that was formally icorporated into just about everything the EU does in the 1997 Treaty of Amsterdam

It all sounds very good and noble but when you stop vaccinating to examine a miniscule risk that, if it does exist, will kill far fewer people than will die due to Covid due to the suspension and subsequent public reluctance to have the vaccine due to bad publicity, then you are part of the problem.

Had the UK followed the precautionary principle, we would not have delayed the vaccine second dose to 12 weeks against WHO advice, which has saved many lives by evabling rolling out the first dose to vulnerable categories of people twice as fast.

The precautionary principle is one cardinal reason I support Brexit, it flows from Napoleonic law where everything is prohibited except where specifically permitted and is at the root of excessive EU bureaucracy "non tariff barriers" etc, wheras in English Common Law anything is permitted except what is specifically forbidden.
 

REVUpminster

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It is political and financial as Phizer will male a lot of money out of this crisis and a cheaper alternative is not good for profits. It's M&S v Lidl !!
 

jon0844

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How could you put 3 million returning people into hotels. They had to be trusted to self isolate if they had symptoms. The present lack of air flights has meant only thousands have to be put in hotels. This country is an international hub.

Why would there be 3 million people flying?

If you're telling people to go home and stay indoors, is it good when they get on the tube/taxi and start the spread before they've even got there?

We could have also rapid tested people on entry. A result in 30 minutes or less (usually a lot quicker) and those that pass won't need do anything at all.

As for the hotels, if a British citizen (or a resident) is returning for good reason, I would have no issue with the taxpayer part funding the hotel. The cost seems vastly inflated anyway, especially if the hotel gets just £700-750 of the £1750. That's a lot of money to transport people to a hotel and carry out two tests (the hotel responsible for the other stuff, like food, cleaning etc).
 

edwin_m

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It's been posted at least once, but it obviously needs repeating, that it was member states that stopped using the AZ vaccine, despite the EU agency recommending them to continue while any problem was investigated.
 

biko

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It's been posted at least once, but it obviously needs repeating, that it was member states that stopped using the AZ vaccine, despite the EU agency recommending them to continue while any problem was investigated.
Exactly, not all countries stopped, each medicine authority made its own decision. The Dutch minister explained it very clearly: he said there probably isn’t a problem, but we should be careful in order to keep the vaccine uptake high.

I don’t think it is political at all. Nobody here is mentioning where which vaccine has which origin and nobody cares about that. People only care about why our government made a mess of the vaccination programme. The EU isn’t really involved: they only managed the purchase, but the countries make their own decisions about whether they want to use vaccines and how to roll them out. It seems Brexiteers want to see things in it that are not really there.
 

WelshBluebird

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It seems Brexiteers want to see things in it that are not really there.
It is almost like they can't believe that EU member states are still sovereign countries that can still make their own policy decisions etc!
 

DerekC

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It is political because behind it lies a political philosophy, the Precautionary Principle that was formally icorporated into just about everything the EU does in the 1997 Treaty of Amsterdam

It all sounds very good and noble but when you stop vaccinating to examine a miniscule risk that, if it does exist, will kill far fewer people than will die due to Covid due to the suspension and subsequent public reluctance to have the vaccine due to bad publicity, then you are part of the problem.

Had the UK followed the precautionary principle, we would not have delayed the vaccine second dose to 12 weeks against WHO advice, which has saved many lives by evabling rolling out the first dose to vulnerable categories of people twice as fast.

The precautionary principle is one cardinal reason I support Brexit, it flows from Napoleonic law where everything is prohibited except where specifically permitted and is at the root of excessive EU bureaucracy "non tariff barriers" etc, wheras in English Common Law anything is permitted except what is specifically forbidden.
I am sure this what you believe, but it really is complete wibble. The Precautionary Principle wasn't formulated until the 1970s and doesn't have anything whatever to do with Napoleonic law - it was a German idea which was originally conceived to apply in relation to the environment. The Treaty of Amsterdam mentions the "precautionary principle" just once - in relation to environmental impact assessments:

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/treaty/pdf/amst-en.pdf

"Community policy on the environment shall aim at a high level of protection taking into account the diversity of situations in the various regions of the Community. It shall be based on the precautionary principle and on the principles that preventive action should be taken, that environmental damage should as a priority be rectified at source and that the polluter should pay."
 

gysev

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Exactly, not all countries stopped, each medicine authority made its own decision. The Dutch minister explained it very clearly: he said there probably isn’t a problem, but we should be careful in order to keep the vaccine uptake high.

I don’t think it is political at all. Nobody here is mentioning where which vaccine has which origin and nobody cares about that. People only care about why our government made a mess of the vaccination programme. The EU isn’t really involved: they only managed the purchase, but the countries make their own decisions about whether they want to use vaccines and how to roll them out. It seems Brexiteers want to see things in it that are not really there.

Indeed, but if you only consult the British tabloids you could get that impression. I was amazed to see in the DM that my country (Belgium) "resumed" vaccinations with AZ. In fact, we never stopped using it in the first place.
 

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