Brexit matters

[nlogax]

Maybe if there had been referenda at both the 1992 and 2007 changes to the EEC/EU then we would not have had the 2016 one at all?

I do agree the Maastrict Treaty should probably have gone through a referendum in the UK.

 

[edwin_m]

I do agree the Maastrict Treaty should probably have gone through a referendum in the UK.

Judging by their behaviour since 2016, the Brexiters would just have taken a rejection of one of these treaties as a reason to demand more.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I had not planned to post in this thread, but reading it has been very interesting. But since I've already made a few posts why not continue.

There is a small Scottish cheese company that makes great cheeses, and I usually buy one or two to bring back home every time I'm in Scotland. But that is no longer possible. Of course I could apply for the necessary permits to import cheese, but I'm not going to do that for a 200 g piece of cheese. They will not go bankrupt selling 2-3 less cheeses per year, but I think they would rather sell them than not sell them. And I would prefer to be able to bring back a cheese or two. So in the end we are both worse off.

I think that sums up my position by this stage too. But the othe way around. The cost of importing some nice German beers and food is now higher and in terms of food it is less fresh (less shelf life left by time i get it) . The shop I order it from I bet is struggling or at least reduced income.

A few brexit friends think I'm a disgrace for ordering anything from the nasty Germans who we beat in two world wars. I would like to reassure the brexit supporters in this thread that I eat enough food and drink enough beer over the course of the year that my german imports are negligible and over 99% of my beer spend is on local and regional beer.

But the point is, it was something nice that enhanced my life, especially at the moment as I can't travel. And it has got harder and more expensive for no reason. British beer hasn't got cheaper?

And yes there are much bigger problems

 

[jon0844]

Brexit logic dictates that anything we can't do now, or have to pay more to do, is worth it for all the benefits we are enjoying. If we can't do it, we probably didn't want to do it anyway.

 

[Dave1987]

I think that sums up my position by this stage too. But the othe way around. The cost of importing some nice German beers and food is now higher and in terms of food it is less fresh (less shelf life left by time i get it) . The shop I order it from I bet is struggling or at least reduced income.

A few brexit friends think I'm a disgrace for ordering anything from the nasty Germans who we beat in two world wars. I would like to reassure the brexit supporters in this thread that I eat enough food and drink enough beer over the course of the year that my german imports are negligible and over 99% of my beer spend is on local and regional beer.

But the point is, it was something nice that enhanced my life, especially at the moment as I can't travel. And it has got harder and more expensive for no reason. British beer hasn't got cheaper?

And yes there are much bigger problems

Remember we are going to be importing fruits from halfway across the globe just to stick two fingers up at Spain. I was highly supprised to hear how many people have been booking holidays to Europe this year. Surely that goes against everything Brexit was about, relying on the EU for a sunny holiday . Surely British people should be flying off to anywhere but the EU for their holidays.

 

[RT4038]

Remember we are going to be importing fruits from halfway across the globe just to stick two fingers up at Spain. I was highly supprised to hear how many people have been booking holidays to Europe this year. Surely that goes against everything Brexit was about, relying on the EU for a sunny holiday . Surely British people should be flying off to anywhere but the EU for their holidays.

Even if it were true that this goes against everything Brexit was about, which I don't think it was (save in the minds of a small minority), nearly half the country voted against Brexit, so presumably would be quite morally free to book European holidays and eat their fruit?

 

[najaB]

Surely British people should be flying off to anywhere but the EU for their holidays.

No, surely they should be flocking to Bognor Regis, Scarborough and Barry Island.

 

[AlterEgo]

Even if it were true that this goes against everything Brexit was about, which I don't think it was (save in the minds of a small minority), nearly half the country voted against Brexit, so presumably would be quite morally free to book European holidays and eat their fruit?

Even if you voted to remove the UK from the EU, you’re still morally fine to take a holiday there and eat fruit that’s grown there.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Even if you voted to remove the UK from the EU, you’re still morally fine to take a holiday there and eat fruit that’s grown there.

Absolutely except the ones that said you didn't need non UK holidays!

 

[Typhoon]

A few brexit friends think I'm a disgrace for ordering anything from the nasty Germans who we beat in two world wars.

Tell them that if it wasn't for Blucher and his nasty Germans we would never have beaten Napoleon and his even nastier French!

 

[davetheguard]

Tell them that if it wasn't for Blucher and his nasty Germans we would never have beaten Napoleon and his even nastier French!

Completely and utterly true; without the Germans -or strictly speaking the Prussians- coming to the rescue Wellington would have been defeated at Waterloo.

What xenophobes often forget (or choose to forget) is, yes, we've been at war with almost every country in Europe at one time or other, but at the self same time we've also been allied with almost every country at one time or other...

 

[RT4038]

Completely and utterly true; without the Germans -or strictly speaking the Prussians- coming to the rescue Wellington would have been defeated at Waterloo.

What Brexiteers often forget (or choose to forget) is, yes, we've been at war with almost every country in Europe at one time or other, but at the self same time we've also been allied with almost every country at one time or other...

Perhaps the Brexiteers are not confusing 'allied' with an 'economic and political union' ?

 

[davetheguard]

Perhaps the Brexiteers are not confusing 'allied' with an 'economic and political union' ?

You are of course correct: "Brexiteers" was the wrong word to use, when what I meant was "xenophobes". I've corrected it now.

 

[daodao]

Completely and utterly true; without the Germans -or strictly speaking the Prussians- coming to the rescue Wellington would have been defeated at Waterloo.

What xenophobes often forget (or choose to forget) is, yes, we've been at war with almost every country in Europe at one time or other, but at the self same time we've also been allied with almost every country at one time or other...

The tragedy of the 20th century in Europe was result of the Entente Cordiale of 1904, following the death of Queen Victoria (who was German and whose husband was also German) and the consequent fracturing of the hitherto close relationship between the UK and Germany, at that time ruled by her eldest grandchild. If the British royal succession had not excluded females where there was an eligible younger brother, as is now the case, Wilhelm II would have become Emperor of Germany and India and his Brittanic Majesty; WW1 (if it had happened) would have taken a very different course.

 

[edwin_m]

The tragedy of the 20th century in Europe was result of the Entente Cordiale of 1904, following the death of Queen Victoria (who was German and whose husband was also German) and the consequent fracturing of the hitherto close relationship between the UK and Germany, at that time ruled by her eldest grandchild. If the British royal succession had not excluded females where there was an eligible younger brother, as is now the case, Wilhelm II would have become Emperor of Germany and India and his Brittanic Majesty; WW1 (if it had happened) would have taken a very different course.

The Entente Cordiale was Britain's settling of its historic differences with France, triggered to a large extent by distrust of Germany by both. Had that not happened then the Great Powers would probably still have gone to war in one way or another, as they had been doing for several centuries previously. What put an end to that legacy was the bringing together of those powers (excepting Russia which is still causing trouble) into Nato and the EU.

It's most unlikely that Victoria's eldest daughter would have been married into the German royal line if she'd been the heir to the British throne.

 

[Senex]

The tragedy of the 20th century in Europe was result of the Entente Cordiale of 1904, following the death of Queen Victoria (who was German and whose husband was also German) and the consequent fracturing of the hitherto close relationship between the UK and Germany, at that time ruled by her eldest grandchild. If the British royal succession had not excluded females where there was an eligible younger brother, as is now the case, Wilhelm II would have become Emperor of Germany and India and his Brittanic Majesty; WW1 (if it had happened) would have taken a very different course.

I agree. But I think there were two tragedies (at least!). One is that Victoria was succeeded by Edward VII with his fetish for all things French and hatred of pretty well everything his mother had done, and so desperate to kick off the German ties and bind us in to the old enemy with the Entente Cordiale. But the other one was a couple of decades earlier when Vicky's husband died young and her son succeeded to the Prussian throne. (Incdentally, William II, like William I, was never "Emperor of Germany" — the most that the most powerful of the other states, especially Bavaria, would allow was "German Emperor").

 

[Typhoon]

The tragedy of the 20th century in Europe was result of the Entente Cordiale of 1904, following the death of Queen Victoria (who was German and whose husband was also German) and the consequent fracturing of the hitherto close relationship between the UK and Germany, at that time ruled by her eldest grandchild. If the British royal succession had not excluded females where there was an eligible younger brother, as is now the case, Wilhelm II would have become Emperor of Germany and India and his Brittanic Majesty; WW1 (if it had happened) would have taken a very different course.

This is true but I suspect that neither the United Kingdom or the united Germany would have been happy with a monarch ruling both, especially as the status of the monarch of the UK was rather different to the status of the Kaiser. Having a king who was Elector of a small state like Hanover is one thing, ruler of a united Germany is another. Neither Gladstone nor Lord Salisbury were the types to be dictated to on policy and I suspect they were have been united on finding an alternative.

Whilst the EU has healed many rifts between European countries, I would suggest that others are more longer lasting. One element of the 'Leave' campaign that I found particularly disingenuous was the picture of (supposed) Turks lining up to enter Europe when Turkey was given access to the EU. I suspect that many of the Balkan countries will need an awful lot of convincing before that happens given their country's treatment under the Ottomans, especially given the current Turkish leadership. Although we may not agree with them, members of the EU are democracies, the previous wars were started by dictators in some form or other.

Thanks to the following for interesting contributions:

The Entente Cordiale was Britain's settling of its historic differences with France, triggered to a large extent by distrust of Germany by both. Had that not happened then the Great Powers would probably still have gone to war in one way or another, as they had been doing for several centuries previously. What put an end to that legacy was the bringing together of those powers (excepting Russia which is still causing trouble) into Nato and the EU.

It's most unlikely that Victoria's eldest daughter would have been married into the German royal line if she'd been the heir to the British throne.

Agreed, there was a very good reason why Edward VII was married to a Dane, from an unthreatening, small, protestant nation.

I agree. But I think there were two tragedies (at least!). One is that Victoria was succeeded by Edward VII with his fetish for all things French and hatred of pretty well everything his mother had done, and so desperate to kick off the German ties and bind us in to the old enemy with the Entente Cordiale. But the other one was a couple of decades earlier when Vicky's husband died young and her son succeeded to the Prussian throne.

Well, fairly young (56). These demonstrate features that seem common to several monarchies at the time - a rift between the monarch and the next-in-line, the approaches of Frederick III and Wilhelm II were almost diametrically opposite.

 

[Dave1987]

The extreme "hard Brexit" pursued by BoJo has definitely soured relations with the EU going forwards. I think trade between the UK and EU will get less and less as the EU simply does not trust the UK Govt anymore. I have read that the EU is looking for legislation to have all Euro-denominated clearing done inside the EU because they simply do not trust the UK to not deviate from EU rules massively and then hold the EU to ransom on Euro exchange transactions. What a very very sad state of affairs. The silly dispute on the EU ambassador and the threat of Article 16 has not helped matters. Considering these are supposed to be our closest friends and allies we are acting as the EU is hostile.

 

[RichT54]

The extreme "hard Brexit" pursued by BoJo has definitely soured relations with the EU going forwards. I think trade between the UK and EU will get less and less as the EU simply does not trust the UK Govt anymore. I have read that the EU is looking for legislation to have all Euro-denominated clearing done inside the EU because they simply do not trust the UK to not deviate from EU rules massively and then hold the EU to ransom on Euro exchange transactions. What a very very sad state of affairs. The silly dispute on the EU ambassador and the threat of Article 16 has not helped matters. Considering these are supposed to be our closest friends and allies we are acting as the EU is hostile.

and Bojo making eurosceptic Lord Frost a member of the cabinet and chair of the EU-UK committee tasked with implementing the Brexit deal, sends a further signal to the EU that the UK government is not going to be at all helpful in resolving the enormous detrimental issues that the trade deal he stubbornly negotiated has caused.

 

[Senex]

The extreme "hard Brexit" pursued by BoJo has definitely soured relations with the EU going forwards. I think trade between the UK and EU will get less and less as the EU simply does not trust the UK Govt anymore. I have read that the EU is looking for legislation to have all Euro-denominated clearing done inside the EU because they simply do not trust the UK to not deviate from EU rules massively and then hold the EU to ransom on Euro exchange transactions. What a very very sad state of affairs. The silly dispute on the EU ambassador and the threat of Article 16 has not helped matters. Considering these are supposed to be our closest friends and allies we are acting as the EU is hostile.

It sounds from the brief account in the media so far as though the new book "Goodbye Britannia" by Sylvie Bermann (former French ambassador) is well worth reading.

 

[XAM2175]

... Bojo making eurosceptic Lord Frost a member of the cabinet and chair of the EU-UK committee tasked with implementing the Brexit deal ...

I find this particularly notable given the amount of diatribe directed at the EU's "unelected bureaucrats" - yet Lord Frost, a life peer, soon-to-be Minister of State for the Cabinet Office, and successor to Michael Gove as chairman of the EU–UK Partnership Council, is similarly unelected and will be holding a position of far greater prominence and arguably also power.

 

[Dave1987]

I find this particularly notable given the amount of diatribe directed at the EU's "unelected bureaucrats" - yet Lord Frost, a life peer, soon-to-be Minister of State for the Cabinet Office, and successor to Michael Gove as chairman of the EU–UK Partnership Council, is similarly unelected and will be holding a position of far greater prominence and arguably also power.

I did think that was highly amusing. An unelected bureaucrat who has muscled his way into the cabinet is now lecturing the EU's supposedly "Unelected bureaucrats" on sovereignty. Apparently he threatened to quit if BoJo didn’t give him a top job in the cabinet and oust Gove (an elected MP). You really could not make this stuff up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Feb 2021 ==

and Bojo making eurosceptic Lord Frost a member of the cabinet and chair of the EU-UK committee tasked with implementing the Brexit deal, sends a further signal to the EU that the UK government is not going to be at all helpful in resolving the enormous detrimental issues that the trade deal he stubbornly negotiated has caused.

Indeed, I believe the Daily Express suggested withholding clearing services for Euro transactions if the EU did not agree a trade deal. Now the EU is looking to legislate to move Euro clearing within the EU to prevent being held to ransom by the UK, the BoE is now warning the EU against denying equivalence to the UK. As the UK pulls more and more away from the EU the EU will pull more and more away from the UK. Part of the hard Brexit BoJo wants probably means that the EU will demand things like this are brought back within the EU to ensure the UK cannot blackmail them.

 

[Senex]

I find this particularly notable given the amount of diatribe directed at the EU's "unelected bureaucrats" - yet Lord Frost, a life peer, soon-to-be Minister of State for the Cabinet Office, and successor to Michael Gove as chairman of the EU–UK Partnership Council, is similarly unelected and will be holding a position of far greater prominence and arguably also power.

Ah, but it's one thing for Westminster to follow its non-democratic and anti-democratic traditions and quite another if there's any suspicion that Johnny Foreigner might be doing the same.

 

[Typhoon]

I did think that was highly amusing. An unelected bureaucrat who has muscled his way into the cabinet is now lecturing the EU's supposedly "Unelected bureaucrats" on sovereignty. Apparently he threatened to quit if BoJo didn’t give him a top job in the cabinet and oust Gove (an elected MP). You really could not make this stuff up.

That just goes to demonstrate the weakness of Johnson as a leader. He's got a majority of goodness-knows-how-many and is still doing what he is told to. Bullied by a man with an almost non-existent power base.

 

[Dave1987]

That just goes to demonstrate the weakness of Johnson as a leader. He's got a majority of goodness-knows-how-many and is still doing what he is told to. Bullied by a man with an almost non-existent power base.

Yup! We don’t get a vote on applying to join the CPTPP despite the fact it means us following the rules of the CPTPP even though we will have no say in the rules of said trade bloc. The hypocrisy is unreal! Complain about the EU “dictating“ rules to the mighty UK yet the UK had a major impact in setting those rule, yet the very first thing we do is beg to join a trading bloc for which we will have zero say in the rules of. Now we have an unelected power grabbing advisor in charge of the UK‘s future trading relationship with its former closest trading partner. How much more hypocritical can you possibly get?

 

[jon0844]

Did anyone in Wales, Cumbria - or places like Sunderland (where 61% voted to leave) - ever think the Tories would keep funding these areas the same as the EU?

Brexit-backing Sunderland says it is not receiving same level of funding outside EU

"I don’t think the Government has any intention to give us pound for pound what we had,” Council leader Graeme Miller said.

www.thelondoneconomic.com

Brexit-backing Sunderland says it is not receiving same level of funding outside EU​

"I don’t think the Government has any intention to give us pound for pound what we had,” Council leader Graeme Miller said.​

Sunderland City Council leader Graeme Miller has accused the government of trying to sneak through a watered down replacement for European Union funding in a blistering attack.

The North East received £437 million out of the European Structural Investment Fund (ESIF) pre-Brexit between 2014 and 2020, but there are suspicions that the replacement UK Shared Prosperity Fund (SPF) is unlikely to live up to those numbers.

“When you look at England and you look at the regions that are benefiting from ESIF, the UK SPF, to be quite frank, is not going to support to those levels,” Miller said.

“If we are quiet about it, the Government will just sneak through a smaller, weaker, less supportive package of finance, because that is what it intends to do.

“We must continue to press for a full share, as we had, with no damage to the region caused by us leaving the EU and losing those funds.

“The government has to be held to account – I don’t think the Government has any intention to give us pound for pound what we had.”

(Oh and then there's Cornwall....)

Post-Brexit Cornwall to receive only 5% of what it needs to replace EU funding

Post-Brexit Cornwall is set to receive just 5% of what it needs to replace EU funding, according to a local councillor.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk

 

[birchesgreen]

Did anyone in Wales, Cumbria - or places like Sunderland (where 61% voted to leave) - ever think the Tories would keep funding these areas the same as the EU?

I don't know about anyone else but i'm shocked!

 

[RichT54]

I also wondered what would happen when the loss of EU funding started to bite in these areas. However, several weeks ago (I can't remember if I read it on a news site or heard it on the radio) a journalist went to some of the affected areas in south Wales and interviewed the locals. Most of the ones they spoke to were still vehement in their support for brexit, claiming that the schemes supported by EU grants were "white elephants" because they were simply something they personally didn't want (e,g, a sports hall) and were ignoring any side effects such as increased employment and the effect that would have on the local economy.

 

[Senex]

Well, if they lose their EU grants and find that they're getting nothing (or very little) in substitution, then they're getting exactly what they voted for — control repatriated to a Westminster government that has a long established history of ignoring as much as possible the more remote English regions. They should be blissfully happy.

 

[najaB]

I don't know about anyone else but i'm shocked!

Me too. Never saw that one coming. Now, I've got this bridge I'm trying to get rid of...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2021 ==

So, it looks like HM Government plans to breach international law, in a limited and very specific way:

The EU says a UK move to unilaterally extend grace periods for Irish Sea border checks will be a breach of international law.
NI has remained a part of the EU's single market for goods so products arriving from GB undergo EU import procedures.
The grace periods mean procedures and checks are not yet fully applied.
The first of these periods will expire at the end of March, but the UK has said it will be extended until October.

Brexit: EU says UK grace period extension breaches international law

The latest Brexit flare up is over checks on goods to NI, which remains in the EU's single market.

www.bbc.com