nlogax
Established Member
I wouldn’t go that far, yet if forum rules weren’t as they’d are I’d have something more sweaty to say about them. Anyway, happy new year all.
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Brexit matters
- Thread starter Xenophon PCDGS
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I'm not sure the Forum Rules have anything to say on sweat!
overthewater
Established Member
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Surly the thread should be changed to EU - UK relations, and how to keep them positive?
Its for everyone interest that we remain friendly with each other to trade and and visit but not stay it seems.
Its for everyone interest that we remain friendly with each other to trade and and visit but not stay it seems.
Journeyman
Established Member
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- 16 Apr 2014
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I've actually decided I'd like to get better at French, in an effort to prove that not all Brits are knuckle dragging Europhobes. I did it at school years ago and got reasonably good, but I've got pretty rusty since. That's a task for the months to come.
GusB
Established Member
That's something that I've also been thinking about. I did French as far as Standard Grade level at school, and the only time I've ever had to put it into practice was a trip to France with a youth orchestra back in the 90s; even then, in the places that we visited, people were doing their best to try to talk to us in English! It's about time I brushed up on it.
One thing I would just like to add to you ardent Brexiteers is to never forget why the EU or EEC was created in the first place. It was created because countries that have close trading ties do not usually go to war with each other. Europe has seen two world wars and I do not wish to see any further wars. Listening to Francois in the commons anyone would think the EU is our arch-enemy with who we are on the verge of armed conflict. These are our closest trading partners and allies. The Americans are not our big friends on the other side of the pond.
nlogax
Established Member
First forum typo of the year!I'm not sure the Forum Rules have anything to say on sweat!
Well yes the language used by the likes of Farage and the ERG was utterly ridiculous, but as far as the EU goes it should have remained a more a trading block, I don't think it ever really had a mandate for closer integration well certainly not in the UK, and had their been a UK referendum on the proposed Constitution for Europe I think it would have been a certain No vote given that even the Dutch and the French voted No.
The Hard Brexiteers like to make out that the EU will soon fold, I wouldn't go that far but I think there is certainly potential for other countries to leave especially if we are seen to have made a reasonable success of it, and clearly there are potential dangers in a more fragmented Europe.
The worry going forward of course is what crackpot idea's this right wing Tory government comes up with now we are out of the EU, and if Boris does go any replacement will be almost certainly be to the right of Boris
What I would love to see is Biden do a deal with the EU before the UK, you could really trash the Brexiteers over that. I gather there are indications that the Biden Administration will not consider a UK Trade Deal before 2022 at the earliest that a good kicking for the Brexiteers in itself, although I think an US Trade Deal would be difficult I doubt the EU will accept Chlorinated Chicken or American Health Companies getting involved in their Health Services unlike us.
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I am expecting to see further trade deals (but not a comprehensive one with the USA) over the next year.
To be followed by the UK joining the Trans Pacific Partnership to howls of outrage from the EU over the regulatory divergence required.
The aim will be to rapidly diversify trade so that the tariff sanctions available to the EU are increasingly futile and self damaging.
With four years until the next election there is sufficient time for this not to have to be rushed.
To be followed by the UK joining the Trans Pacific Partnership to howls of outrage from the EU over the regulatory divergence required.
The aim will be to rapidly diversify trade so that the tariff sanctions available to the EU are increasingly futile and self damaging.
With four years until the next election there is sufficient time for this not to have to be rushed.
Journeyman
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But surely if TPP requires specific regulations to be followed, that's a sacrifice of sovereignty? How come that's OK, if a sacrifice of sovereignty to the EU isn't?
You haven't thought this through.
This, on a t-shirt!
I think you forgot the rules about sovereignty only apply to an EU Trade deal and not to any other Trade Deal. Similarly Freedom of Movement is OK for Canzak because they are not really Foreigners but mainly English people that moved abroad.
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In other words, they want to be like the USA.
I don't remember that on the side of the bus!
I hope the proponents of joining the TPP have looked at who is currently in the club and who is likely to join. Current membership is:- Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, Vietnam. Only two of these currently feature in our top 15 trading partners: Japan (1.8% of exports) and Singapore (1.5%). http://www.worldstopexports.com/uni...Importing UK Exports in, +0.9% 6 more rows .
So even a sizeable increase to any of the eleven is hardly go to be a game changer; the countries who are interested in joining (besides the UK) include Colombia, Indonesia, Philippines, South Korea, Thailand - and China, with the exception of the latter, not exactly leading trade partners. According to the Council For Foreign Relations (https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-trans-pacific-partnership-tpp
I'm no fan of Trump, but he may have a point!
Hate to tell you this but the TPP has rules you have to sign up to thereby taking sovereignty away. And you want to do this without the EU slapping tariffs on the UK while you hope to diverge the UK economy away from its close ties to the EU. Good luck with keeping the £ in any kind of strength to that import costs for food don’t skyrocket.
Personally in 2016 I would quite happily have remained in EFTA, but not a customs union (EEA) or proto federal state.
The TPP has no intention of becoming a state, or having its own law or courts. It is a trade agreement based on mutual recognition. If the EU had stuck to that, instead of trying to create a modern version of Austro-Hungarian Empire I, doubt we would have left
It is clear though that we are going to to shortly join the Trans Pacific Trade agreement, the die is now cast.
Much is made of Biden blocking a UK/US free trade agreement. However such a free trade agreement with the US will be achieved by the back door when we join TPP, followed by Biden reversing Trumps policy and joining too.
www.gov.uk
The TPP has no intention of becoming a state, or having its own law or courts. It is a trade agreement based on mutual recognition. If the EU had stuck to that, instead of trying to create a modern version of Austro-Hungarian Empire I, doubt we would have left
It is clear though that we are going to to shortly join the Trans Pacific Trade agreement, the die is now cast.
Much is made of Biden blocking a UK/US free trade agreement. However such a free trade agreement with the US will be achieved by the back door when we join TPP, followed by Biden reversing Trumps policy and joining too.
UK takes major step towards membership of Trans-Pacific free trade area
The UK has today taken a major step in the process of joining CPTPP (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership).
Personally in 2016 I would quite happily have remained in EFTA, but not a customs union (EEA) or proto federal state.
The TPP has no intention of becoming a state, or having its own law or courts. It is a trade agreement based on mutual recognition. If the EU had stuck to that, instead of trying to create a modern version of Austro-Hungarian Empire I, doubt we would have left
It is clear though that we are going to to shortly join the Trans Pacific Trade agreement, the die is now cast.
Much is made of Biden blocking a UK/US free trade agreement. However such a free trade agreement with the US will be achieved by the back door when we join TPP, followed by Biden reversing Trumps policy and joining too.
UK takes major step towards membership of Trans-Pacific free trade area
The UK has today taken a major step in the process of joining CPTPP (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership).
But you have repeatedly said Brexit is about Sovereignty and the ability to make our own rules and do what we want to do. By trying to sign up to the TPP you are already sacrificing that sovereignty as guess what that club has rules to follow!! Your previous comments basically say that you don’t really care about sovereignty or making our own rules, as long as it’s not the EU setting rules that’s fine. The hatred towards the EU is quite unbelievable from the far right considering that for the last 100 years or so we have been the closest of friends and alliEd. Remember the US forced us to repay the debts we build up during the wars. That’s why the UK is so far behind and most households didn’t have an automatic washing machine in the 50’s and 60’s. We were broke paying the US back.
So presumably it comes down to which set of rules do you want to follow, as each rule does not have equal weight?
An analogy for this decision making situation would be the relationship between spouses/partners. People don't stay together just because that is the most financially and/or socially advantageous for one or both of them. They may well have been friends for years. The desire to break may not have been caused by a single reason, and it may not be because a rival partner has been found already, or that another partner will necessarily be a faultless wonder. Nor is the partner desiring the break necessarily assigning no blame to themselves. The cause may well be that one of the partners feels threatened by something, and/ or feels the other is trying to change their character. There may well be significant immediate downsides for the break.
The feeling for the break was significant, just over 50% in a free vote. This was not a mere fit of temper. Whether such a change should be made by such a margin will be argued about forever. We are where we are now and have to make the best of it.
Personally I wouldn’t want to see a return of any of those things (although really don’t care about the colour of a passport), and I would very strongly object to bringing back the death penalty, not because I’m a ‘softy’, but because it is ineffective, costly, and people who are wrongly convicted of which there are surprisingly quite a lot wouldn’t have much chance to appeal their conviction! And corporal punishment in schools? That is just barbaric and ineffective, and open to abuse.
I really don’t want to be anything like the USA either, for a huge list of reasons
nlogax
Established Member
Considering this is a new year and the deed is finally done I'm going to have a stab at being optimistic. Just this once, mind you.
The post-Brexit deal is thin gruel but it does give us tariff-free trade which is a base to build from. Grant Shapps yesterday announced we'd not be required to use International Drivers Permits to drive through the EU. I imagine there'll be some firming up of financial services agreements in coming months as both sides of the channel start to find their feet in our new shared reality. And things may improve in terms of reductions in non-tariff barriers over coming years.
Long story short, this is just the beginning. What we have now with the post-Brexit agreement is merely a foundation and this should hopefully get a bit easier once everyone understands the practicalities of what we're working with. That said it will never come close to replacing what we've lost.
The post-Brexit deal is thin gruel but it does give us tariff-free trade which is a base to build from. Grant Shapps yesterday announced we'd not be required to use International Drivers Permits to drive through the EU. I imagine there'll be some firming up of financial services agreements in coming months as both sides of the channel start to find their feet in our new shared reality. And things may improve in terms of reductions in non-tariff barriers over coming years.
Long story short, this is just the beginning. What we have now with the post-Brexit agreement is merely a foundation and this should hopefully get a bit easier once everyone understands the practicalities of what we're working with. That said it will never come close to replacing what we've lost.
Oh come off it. The impact on soverignty with a trade agreement are trivial compared with a customs union and political federation, and also far less complicated to withdraw from or amend.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Meanwhile, as of 23.00 last night, Electric Pulse Trawling was prohibited in UK waters by DEFRA.
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The TPP members are rather far away from Great Britain. They're also following some markedly different or varied standards in some industries compared to the European Single Market standards, almost all of which the UK still applies today. And also Northern Ireland won't be able to benefit from the new trade agreements. The European Commission won't be that bothered by the divergence or otherwise of the UK because the European Single Market continues to grow successfully and has a secure future as one of the three main trading blocs in the world. The new Treaty allows the European Single Market to be protected from divergence-induced competitive advantage in the UK - that's the whole point. At the moment the 27 do not have to consult with the UK on anything trade or institution related, making their lives easier and cheaper, but still get to take full advantage of our market. Sounds like a good deal if you're the Commission.
In sum, TPP is a red herring.
In sum, TPP is a red herring.
Journeyman
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2014
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- 6,295
So, TPP unelected bureaucrats are fine, but EU ones aren't?
We actually had a voice in the EU parliament. British MEPs were very close to getting VAT on sanitary products removed across 28 countries. We're now congratulating ourselves for doing it, while the issue has slipped off the EU's radar. We could have achieved that goal right across Europe.
We had a voice. Now we don't. And TPP rule makers don't have to answer to the electorate.
It is, however, a smokescreen to deflect from mountains of paperwork and added costs of us leaving the EU, which papers like the Mail, the Sun and the Express will use to champion the diligence of our PM and the rest of the cabinet. 'Massive trade deal sealed with Australia, Japan and 9 others'. I would be a little surprised if the average voter would be able to pinpoint Brunei, Peru and Vietnam on a map, even the average tabloid journalist. Johnson will bluster away about how everyone said it couldn't be achieved and some will still believe he has done a good job of getting Brexit done.
Actually, Red Herrings are some of the few fish that EU fishermen will not be fishing for post Brexit. They'll be leaving them to us.
eoff
Member
Presumably this is offset by the Bonfire of Red Tape Boris has had a year to get ready for as outlined in the story below...
Brexit boost: Boris Johnson's 'Bonfire of redtape' for small UK firms
BORIS JOHNSON is promising a “Bonfire of redtape” on small businesses, to help them gain Government contracts post-Brexit at the end of next year.
www.express.co.uk
A Boris Promise, was it on the side of the bus?Presumably this is offset by the Bonfire of Red Tape Boris has had a year to get ready for as outlined in the story below...
Brexit boost: Boris Johnson's 'Bonfire of redtape' for small UK firms
BORIS JOHNSON is promising a “Bonfire of redtape” on small businesses, to help them gain Government contracts post-Brexit at the end of next year.
Presumably this is offset by the Bonfire of Red Tape Boris has had a year to get ready for as outlined in the story below...
Brexit boost: Boris Johnson's 'Bonfire of redtape' for small UK firms
BORIS JOHNSON is promising a “Bonfire of redtape” on small businesses, to help them gain Government contracts post-Brexit at the end of next year.
In other words contracts will be issued to companies that completely coincidentally have bosses who are Tory party donors, or was that just for Covid contracts?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
There have been so many announcements of contracts going to Cronies. I must buy some shares in Cronies plc.
arbeia
Member
Whatever your viewpoint, from 2300 last night, your vote became more powerful.