Brexit matters

[Journeyman]

That's because nothing's changed.

Excuse me???

 

[ainsworth74]

That's because nothing's changed.

Come again? Nothing's changed in the last 47 years? Are you serious?

 

[Richard Scott]

They want to join the EU and become proper Europeans again.

For they read she. Not all Scotland does. Don't think Sturgeon speaks for everyone living in Scotland. She seems to be making same divisive mistake as Brexit, a large minority if Scots, at the moment, don't want independence.

 

[37424]

I have followed the whole saga, instead of working with result, Remain instead decided to try and reverse the referendum result with court cases, parliamentary road blocks, any dirty tricks they can think of, without considering the other side's case instead they are focusing on their own needs and priorities, engaging in their own lies and propaganda that they accuse Brexiters of doing, this has caused massive problems with our negotiations with the EU, weakening our position, they would be willing to wreck the British position to prove a point, the bitterness, sarcasm, trying to drown out Brexiters opinions in an avalanche of unconstructive criticism seems to be the weapon used, reasoned debates is not possible in the face of it.

Democracy is important to this country, that to subvert it in order to impose a loser's agenda makes a mockery of it.

What would be the point of a referendum if it's not acted on in good faith.

Whether anyone agree with the result or not, the people have spoken, never more clearly than the last general election with an 80 seat majority for Brexit, in truth no one knows how it will turn out, predictions are merely estimates, projections, fantasies up to the hysterical.

I do know one thing, after we joined the EEC in 1973 WITHOUT a referendum, food prices went up because of a common custom regime, the Common Agricultural Policy is a money pit that benefitted French farmers who see no need for reform, wasteful butter mountain, wine lakes, artificially raising prices for the internal market, corruption is widespread, our laws were subverted in favour of EU law which is actually illegal as parliament derives consent from the people for which they haven't given a referendum to join the EU, this was done without the permission of the people, the referendum of 1975 was done with promise that the failings of the EEC will be addressed, as history has shown it wasn't and is still a problem now.

To me Brexit is more than pure economics, it's about parliamentary soverignity, who decides how Britain govern for its people, our right to decide for ourselves without reference to 27 other countries, who fishes our waters, decide our trade policy and partner.

Our workers rights have already been enshrined in UK law long before we joined the EEC and others afterward is written in the statute books, they are not going to disappear overnight as soon as we leave, theres is a very good chance we will leave in a very hard Brexit because the EU believe they hold the cards because of the infighting, they even "offered" us 18% of OUR fishing water in exchange for a deal, it is an insult, it's deeply disrespectful and impossible to accept, they would only do that if they believe our position is very weak, I would rather have no deal than servitude on such terms.....

If we had run a referendum on the basis of No deal with an Impact assessment of the consequences and people still voted to leave then I would certainly have accepted that, the reality was at the time of the referendum nobody was talking about no deal, we had Tory MP's talking about the 'easiest deal in History' we even had Farage talking about a Norway style Deal' which is why I dont believe there is a mandate for No Deal.

After the referendum the likes of Farage and the Hard Brexiters came up with being in the EEA and/or Customs Union is not really leaving, and we started moving to the Basic Trade deal narrative and then the No Deal narrative from the likes of Farage and the Hard Brexiteers and I think thats why many Remainers have a problem with it.

I believe Norway pays around 400 million Euro and accept Freedom of movement to be in the EEA, we are not accepting freedom of movement so the EU are going to want something in return in this case Fish which as its not a big industry for this country seems potentially a resonable price to pay but as usual the Hard Brexiteers want everything without giving anything in return. I think the figure of 18% which you call an insult is 18% of the current EU allocation which would be returned to the UK above the existing UK allocation.

The reality is they will protect their Single Market structure and they are not going to do a Basic Canada style deal with us, and whats important to me is Jobs and prosperity above so called soverignity.

 

[nlogax]

That's because nothing's changed.

Well done on your world view being preserved in aspic. When you finally join us in the 21st century please let us know and we'll let you know what you've missed.

 

[Senex]

I wouldn’t assume all Remainers want to rejoin the EU (although I probably would support that), I get the impression that many Remainers just want a good deal so we can move on.
And getting a good deal would have been a better compromise than a hard Brexit and no deal. The government seems to forget that 49% of voters wanted to Remain, and seems to just be appealing to Brexiteers which probably isn’t wise if they want to reduce division. With almost half of voters wanting to Remain, it would surely be obvious to a competent government that compromises would have to be made.
It’s almost as if it is part of a plan to increase division.

Everything that has been done since 2016 sieems to have been designed to firm up division by ignoring completey the near-half of the voters who wanted to remain by failing to loook for any sort of compromise. They've now got the utterly divided society they seem to have wanted.

 

[alex397]

Democracy is important to this country, that to subvert it in order to impose a loser's agenda makes a mockery of it.

What would be the point of a referendum if it's not acted on in good faith.

Whether anyone agree with the result or not, the people have spoken, never more clearly than the last general election with an 80 seat majority for Brexit, in truth no one knows how it will turn out, predictions are merely estimates, projections, fantasies up to the hysterical.

Democracy also means we have the right to speak about things we disagree with. And a lot of people disagree with Brexit, and/or they way we are doing it. Democracy doesn’t mean all the Remainers should shut up. We still have the right to disagree, to protest, to point out hypocrisy, and so on.

Impose a loser’s agenda? This does sound like a Trump-ism. If a large majority of people voted for a hard no-deal Brexit, then fair enough. But it was only just over 50%, and it was unclear about what sort of Brexit that was. I doubt all of that 51% wanted a hard no-deal Brexit.
Also, some Brexiteers need to accept that the referendum was very divided. Democracy doesn’t mean we just listen to the 51%.

No one knows how it will turn out? Well, we don’t know exactly what will happen, but it’s pretty clear it’s going to be difficult. Well, it’s already been difficult, and there have already been changes. And there are experts to listen to - most of them don’t just make guesses (and they arnt all lefty remoaner snowflakes). And despite what Gove says, I suspect experts probably have, erm, expert knowledge.
Hopefully things won’t be quiet as bad as many are predicting, but it looks pretty obvious there are going to be difficulties - the lorry queues for example. There are already huge disruptive queues, and that’s before the extra bureaucracy is added.

 

[Vespa]

Well done on your world view being preserved in aspic. When you finally join us in the 21st century please let us know and we'll let you know what you've missed.

Corruption is timeless, doesn't matter of it's EEC, EEA or EU, different name, same corruption.

You can try to bury me under pro remain posts, it won't change anything....

 

[nlogax]

Corruption is timeless, doesn't matter of it's EEC, EEA or EU, different name, same corruption.

You can try to bury me under pro remain posts, it won't change anything....

No-one's trying to bury your posts. We're trying to understand your point of view. Unfortunately for you the more you say the less we understand.

 

[radamfi]

Corruption is timeless, doesn't matter of it's EEC, EEA or EU, different name, same corruption.

You can try to bury me under pro remain posts, it won't change anything....

You only think that because you have been conditioned to think that by the media and politicians. If you grew up and lived in Ireland, you would have a different view.

 

[alex397]

Corruption is timeless, doesn't matter of it's EEC, EEA or EU, different name, same corruption.

Or UK, Tory party, Russia and so on.

Most Remainers would probably accept that there is some corruption in the EU. It isn’t perfect. But the UK isnt exactly an angel. Far from it. London is the money laundering capital of the world. The EU is trying to stop such practices.

 

[37424]

Or UK, Tory party, Russia and so on.

Most Remainers would probably accept that there is some corruption in the EU. It isn’t perfect. But the UK isnt exactly an angel. Far from it. London is the money laundering capital of the world. The EU is trying to change such practices.

Theres is plenty I don't like about the EU believe me but overall I made the judgement It was in our best economic interests, and as far as sovereignty goes it seems to me that the most important decisions over the past 40 years have been made by the UK government despite being in the EU.

 

[Grimsby town]

I have followed the whole saga, instead of working with result, Remain instead decided to try and reverse the referendum result with court cases, parliamentary road blocks, any dirty tricks they can think of, without considering the other side's case instead they are focusing on their own needs and priorities, engaging in their own lies and propaganda that they accuse Brexiters of doing, this has caused massive problems with our negotiations with the EU, weakening our position, they would be willing to wreck the British position to prove a point, the bitterness, sarcasm, trying to drown out Brexiters opinions in an avalanche of unconstructive criticism seems to be the weapon used, reasoned debates is not possible in the face of it.

Democracy is important to this country, that to subvert it in order to impose a loser's agenda makes a mockery of it.

What would be the point of a referendum if it's not acted on in good faith.

Whether anyone agree with the result or not, the people have spoken, never more clearly than the last general election with an 80 seat majority for Brexit, in truth no one knows how it will turn out, predictions are merely estimates, projections, fantasies up to the hysterical.

I do know one thing, after we joined the EEC in 1973 WITHOUT a referendum, food prices went up because of a common custom regime, the Common Agricultural Policy is a money pit that benefitted French farmers who see no need for reform, wasteful butter mountain, wine lakes, artificially raising prices for the internal market, corruption is widespread, our laws were subverted in favour of EU law which is actually illegal as parliament derives consent from the people for which they haven't given a referendum to join the EU, this was done without the permission of the people, the referendum of 1975 was done with promise that the failings of the EEC will be addressed, as history has shown it wasn't and is still a problem now.

To me Brexit is more than pure economics, it's about parliamentary soverignity, who decides how Britain govern for its people, our right to decide for ourselves without reference to 27 other countries, who fishes our waters, decide our trade policy and partner.

Our workers rights have already been enshrined in UK law long before we joined the EEC and others afterward is written in the statute books, they are not going to disappear overnight as soon as we leave, theres is a very good chance we will leave in a very hard Brexit because the EU believe they hold the cards because of the infighting, they even "offered" us 18% of OUR fishing water in exchange for a deal, it is an insult, it's deeply disrespectful and impossible to accept, they would only do that if they believe our position is very weak, I would rather have no deal than servitude on such terms.....

I do think there was some acceptance of Brexit at first by remainers but this reduced has the saga dragged on. There has been an unwillingness to find a compromise solution ever since the vote on both sides. As nobody came in and tried to bridge the gap between sides, positions became more entrenched.

In hindsight, the referendum should have been a vote to begin negotiating with the EU and triggering article 50. There then should have been a second vote on the deal.

The whole brexit process has been constituionally confused. It gave the direct power to the people to start the process of leaving the EU but not to choose how to leave the EU. You prove in your post how confused the whole democratic process has become by saying that there was an 80 seat majority for brexit. There wasn't. There was an 80 seat majority for a conservative government and yes a large part of the manifesto was to leave the EU although they were pretty vague on how to do that. You can read into that election in different ways though. If, as most people appear to think, it was solely a vote on brexit, then pro-EU / referendum parties won more of the vote. Trying to solve something that started with direct democracy with multi issue representative democracy and not trying to heal divides was alway going to weaken our negotiation hand due to it causing confusion and division on what we are trying to achieve.

 

[alex397]

There definitely are bitter Remainers, but you can’t say all of them are like that. Some think we should re-join. There are also those that just want a deal to move on. There are others who can’t be bothered with it anymore as quite rightly they are bored of it. There are Remainers who love the EU. There are Remainers who don’t actually like the EU.

Just like not all Brexiteers are nationalist, or want a no deal, or right wing, and so on.

 

[yorkie]

That's because nothing's changed.

I don't understand what you mean?

 

[geoffk]

I don't recall EEA-EFTA ever being an option. Right from the start, Theresa May ignored this route because of her rigid freedom of movement "red line". The 2017 election, which resulted in a hung parliament, was the chance to pursue a cross-party consensus which might have given us EEA-EFTA, but instead May offered a bung to the most right-wing party on the opposition benches, the DUP, and bought their support. In 2016, Vote Leave broke electoral law and, had the referendum not been advisory only, it would have been struck down by the courts. For this and many other reasons, including the likely involvement of Russian money, remainers were and still are angry, and for Boris Johnson to inflict on us "no deal", for which nobody voted, in the middle of a pandemic, is criminally irresponsible. There are still 18 days left for some sane voices in the Tory party, if there are any left, to persuade him of the error of his ways.

​

 

[bb21]

You are all reminded to please refrain from using provocative language, especially those (not so) subtly aimed at other forum members. Thank you.

 

[37424]

So the talks appear to be extended, but is there chance of a real deal or is Johnson just running the clock further towards January in order to limit the time for dissent to a shorter period before it happens?

 

[Snow1964]

So the talks appear to be extended, but is there chance of a real deal or is Johnson just running the clock further towards January in order to limit the time for dissent to a shorter period before it happens?

There is 97.5% of an agreed deal, although if don’t close gap on other 2.5% then that never happens

It is also clear that a number of Conservative MPs have made it clear No Deal would be unforgivable, and the disruption it causes for few months would not be forgotten by the electorate.

Ultimately Johnson is more likely to look after himself and his close chums, and put that ahead of worrying about people losing jobs. He will spin it to his advantage whatever the deal.

There was an article in Sunday newspapers, seems country is split, about third are Brexiteers and annoyed we haven’t left yet, another third are remainers and think leaving is stupid with more downsides than advantages, the other third are just fed up and don’t care.

 

[Dave1987]

There was an article of Sky News yesterday about the potential of the Nissan factory closing if JIT logistics didn’t work because of port delays. The factory is a major employer in the area. I was astonished to read that many locals weren’t bothered if it closed. Some Brexiteers were saying if they close it then the UK Govt should "seize the land and equipment and flog it" as "punishment" for closing the plant. Wow this is "global Britain" for you. Seriously if people want Britain to be an independent sovereign state we have to realise that the UK is a small economy. We have chosen to leave the big club. Australia are trying to negotiate a FTA with the EU right now so saying WTO "Australia style" is fine is just being extremely disingenuous. And threatening to "not buy German cars" is just ridiculous. VW, Audi and BMW are not going to go bust just because some British people have boycotted their cars. Their main export markets are the US and China.

 

[birchesgreen]

The realities of international trade and law is about to hit some folk real hard.

 

[LittleAH]

Seems the Remainers have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.

I quote Peter Mandelson who, whatever you think of him, was an able politician.

[Hard Brexit is the] ‘price the rest of us in the pro-EU camp will pay for trying, in the years following 2016, to reverse the referendum decision rather than achieve the least damaging form of Brexit’

Sorry but what does that mean?! Democracy isn't based on one vote and you must follow through at all costs - plenty of those who voted remain still respect that referendum result but any opportunity to work cross-party on a solution for Brexit was ditched by May's government and led to your Farage's and ERG types demanding Hard-Brexit at all costs. Amazingly enough, nobody knew what Brexit was in 2016 and that's how the people's vote movement was born. That's not remainers learning nothing, it's remainers realising that Brexit at all costs is going to harm the country socially and economically for decades to come for a result that varies from person to person. Brexiteers/Tory party have also failed to engage with any of those on the opposition side causing a bigger divide in society.

I honesty struggle to understand what you're trying to drive in your points. Yesterday you were saying that National Service (nobody under 78 will have done this) and Grammar schools (Nobody under 60 would have gone to a Grammar Schools as you view them) were what drove Brexit - but they weren't. Have a watch of John Harris' Anywhere But Westminster - something most politicians should actually watch. The reasons for Brexit weren't just your view of the world.

To me Brexit is more than pure economics, it's about parliamentary soverignity, who decides how Britain govern for its people, our right to decide for ourselves without reference to 27 other countries, who fishes our waters, decide our trade policy and partner.

Our workers rights have already been enshrined in UK law long before we joined the EEC and others afterward is written in the statute books, they are not going to disappear overnight as soon as we leave, theres is a very good chance we will leave in a very hard Brexit because the EU believe they hold the cards because of the infighting, they even "offered" us 18% of OUR fishing water in exchange for a deal, it is an insult, it's deeply disrespectful and impossible to accept, they would only do that if they believe our position is very weak, I would rather have no deal than servitude on such terms.....

Would help if the UK government and UK fishermen hadn't sold off the fishing rights. Of course our digital tech sector is 9000% times bigger than Fishing and will be seriously affected by Brexit, but to you it's not just pure economics is it. Of course the economy drives jobs, government finances and society as a whole. So when you see jobs move, businesses potentially going under what happens to the UK as a country? Fishing is really a nothing industry in terms of our GDP and success as a country - heck, the collapse of Debenhams had a bigger affect to it than Fishing ever would, so why are Brexiteers standing on this hill? I'd love to know.

 

[Mag_seven]

The realities of international trade and law is about to hit some folk real hard.

But I suspect the right wing leaver press will do what they always have done - and blame it all on the EU!

 

[birchesgreen]

Would help if the UK government and UK fishermen hadn't sold off the fishing rights. Of course our digital tech sector is 9000% times bigger than Fishing and will be seriously affected by Brexit, but to you it's not just pure economics is it. Of course the economy drives jobs, government finances and society as a whole. So when you see jobs move, businesses potentially going under what happens to the UK as a country? Fishing is really a nothing industry in terms of our GDP and success as a country - heck, the collapse of Debenhams had a bigger affect to it than Fishing ever would, so why are Brexiteers standing on this hill? I'd love to know.

There was an amusing stat over the weekend, in terms of percentage of GDP the Games Workshop chain is three times bigger the fishing industry.

 

[LittleAH]

There was an amusing stat over the weekend, in terms of percentage of GDP the Games Workshop chain is three times bigger the fishing industry.

An even more stark one is that in 2015/16 our exports to the world were worth nearly $800bn, in 2019 this fell to $467bn. I wonder what changed.

 

[Dave1987]

An even more stark one is that in 2015/16 our exports to the world were worth nearly $800bn, in 2019 this fell to $467bn. I wonder what changed.

The stat that made me chuckle is that all the money BoJo has chucked into no-deal preparations would be enough you pay every single person in the fishing industry to retire immediately. Absolutely astonishing the amounts of money pumped into no deal.

 

[najaB]

Absolutely astonishing the amounts of money pumped into no deal.

And it's not like the money bonfire ends on Jan 1, 2021. This has a long way to go.

A lot of people see "Deal" or "No Deal" as destinations when they're actually just waypoints.

 

[nlogax]

The realities of international trade and law is about to hit some folk real hard.

When the brown stuff hits the fan there is not going to be a single pang of regret from certain pro-Brexit types . Certainly not outwardly, anyway..they've nailed their colours to the mast and that's that. I imagine they also aren't in positions that will disbenefit from what will happen in the event of no-deal.

The stat that made me chuckle is that all the money BoJo has chucked into no-deal preparations would be enough you pay every single person in the fishing industry to retire immediately. Absolutely astonishing the amounts of money pumped into no deal.

I read something along the lines of enough money to turn each person in the fishing trade into a millionaire. While presumably inaccurate it still puts the insane amount of investment (if that's the right word?) for no-deal into context. Already the *cough* £350m per week saving appears to have vanished into thin air.

 

[najaB]

I read something along the lines of enough money to turn each person in the fishing trade into a millionaire. While presumably inaccurate it still puts the insane amount of investment (if that's the right word?) for no-deal into context.

According to official figures there are 12,000 fishers working on UK-registered boats. At a million pounds each, that would be £12B. I have no doubt believing that the government was spent over £12B "preparing" for a no-deal Brexit so far.

 

[Tester]

Talking of sovereignty, whilst the Royal Navy are (currently) a UK organisation, provision of the data they use to locate errant fishing boats has been contracted out to a, wait for it..., French company part owned by the French government.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...-its-waters-to-a-french-firm-last-year/13/12/

Military vessels patrolling UK waters after Brexit may have to rely on data from a French firm that was handed the license to monitor them back in October last year.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) yesterday confirmed that four 80-metre armed vessels had been placed on standby to guard British waters from EU trawlers in the event that there is no new agreement on fishing rights after December 31 when transitional arrangements end.

French President Emmanuel Macron has been particularly vocal on the issue as he looks ahead to a reelection race in 2022, but in a moment of irony reminiscent of the blue passport fiasco, he may not need to fret.

You truly could not make it up.