Brexit matters

[birchesgreen]

Brexit fatigue is setting in, I for one am fed up with the whole thing and I just want it over

Bad news for you, its only just begun.

 

[najaB]

I would hardly say 97% of a treaty text agreed is point zero. Sources on both sides have confirmed to the media that figure.

But I thought that the treaty was practically finished back when we triggered Article 50?

I'm not sure what's been discussed with this, but we'd have to have the right to replicate what the ERDF and ESIF funds currently do.

I struggle to see why state aid is such a stumbling block given that the UK was against state aid when we were in the EU. More Brexit madness I guess.

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the club. Regardless of what you think you voted for in 2016, you voted for this. We're all sick and tired of it.

Agreed. People who voted for it caused the uncertainty

Do we take @Vespa's post as expressing regret for voting that way? If so that's very open honest and noble of @Vespa

 

[peters]

50p says they're going to be extremely disappointed if they think that any form of Brexit let alone no-deal will see the factories, steel mills, etc re-open or that we'll even manage to keep what we have...

There was a BBC report recently on how mining in Cornwall could be used to extract lithium, to cope with the increased demand for lithium batteries as electric cars become more commonplace. Although, that has nothing to do with Brexit, the reason for looking for a British solution is due to the difficulty and expense in transporting lithium. It also relies on the Cornish people not objecting to a mine being dug and a lot of additional freight traffic in and out of their county.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2020 ==

Quite liked this bit in the Guardian article:


But that can't be correct surely - individual EU states making their own decisions?

We knew that from a decision made by Austria in 2008. They wanted to avoid football hooligans getting into their country through the back doors ahead of Euro 2008 so guess what, despite being in the Schengen Zone they implemented passport control at all land borders and refused entry to some EU nationals with criminal records. According to the FCDO information for Denmark "Border controls were also introduced in November 2019 for travellers from Rønne, Helsingør, Frederikshavn, Grenaa and those using the Øresund Bridge, including all train traffic from Sweden. These checks are temporary but will be in place for an unspecified period of time."

Amazing isn't it that Schengen zone countries with a land border with another Schengen zone country can take control of their borders and we can't even control our own borders when we aren't part of the Schengen Zone and aren't part of the European mainland.

Despite the high number of Brits who go to Spain and Greece on holiday, I can't see either country just accepting non-EU Brits if they don't have to. Spain may want to use Gibraltar as a bargaining chip and Greece may want to use the Elgin Marbles as a bargaining chip. Never mind who wants to go to Barcelona when we have a little Iberian peninsula with some monkeys that we call apes or who wants to see the Acropolis when we have a few small pieces from it in a museum in London?

 

[Vespa]

Agreed. People who voted for it caused the uncertainty

Do we take @Vespa's post as expressing regret for voting that way? If so that's very open honest and noble of @Vespa

No regrets

I stand by my vote, nailed my colour to the mast.

An interesting analysis of post Brexit life.

Not quite doom and gloom, with a side order of zombie apocalypse at all as we have been told to expect in a no deal scenario.

It pretty much puts us in the position we were in prior to1973, as far as I can remember then the world was still in technicolour and no black clouds or Four Horsemen of Armageddon riding down my street.......

ROSS CLARK: What does a No Deal Brexit mean to you?

Unless there is progress in the negotiations by Sunday, the likelihood is that Britain will crash out of the EU transitional arrangements on January 1 in the hardest possible way.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Ianno87]

No regrets

I stand by my vote, nailed my colour to the mast.

An interesting analysis of post Brexit life.

Not quite doom and gloom, with a side order of zombie apocalypse at all as we have been told to expect in a no deal scenario.

It pretty much puts us in the position we were in prior to1973, as far as I can remember then the world was still in technicolour and no black clouds or Four Horsemen of Armageddon riding down my street.......

ROSS CLARK: What does a No Deal Brexit mean to you?

Unless there is progress in the negotiations by Sunday, the likelihood is that Britain will crash out of the EU transitional arrangements on January 1 in the hardest possible way.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Any chance of some analysis that isn't the Daily Mail.....?

 

[najaB]

It pretty much puts us in the position we were in prior to1973, as far as I can remember then the world was still in technicolour and no black clouds or Four Horsemen of Armageddon riding down my street.

A little before my time, but I'm pretty sure that the world has changed a lot since 1973. You know, just in economic, social, political, technological and environmental terms.

 

[peters]

A little before my time, but I'm pretty sure that the world has changed a lot since 1973. You know, just in economic, social, political, technological and environmental terms.

When international travel became possible to some EU countries post-lockdown 1.0, subject to restrictions, I remember Simon Calder saying that it won't be travel like we've been used to and it would be like early 1970s travel with a lot of paperwork and red tape.

 

[yorksrob]

But I thought that the treaty was practically finished back when we triggered Article 50?

I struggle to see why state aid is such a stumbling block given that the UK was against state aid when we were in the EU. More Brexit madness I guess.

That's a personal bugbear I must admit. It wouldn't surprise me if some past, pro market UK administration had actually proposed the state aid rules in the first place.

 

[Vespa]

You have a look for yourself, lanno87, I'm sure you will find one that supports your views.

Evetybody has an opinion and will probably bring up an article that supoorts their views.

I assume you were born in 1987 and didn't know anything other the EU, whereas I have and I can tell one thing, when we joined up, prices went up and our Commonwealth trade partners lost out massively in preferential trading arrangement.

I would suggest you look up on life before 1973 youtube and the internet it's full of them.

 

[najaB]

I assume you were born in 1987 and didn't know anything other the EU, whereas I have and I can tell one thing, when we joined up, prices went up and our Commonwealth trade partners lost out massively in preferential trading arrangement.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

You don't suppose the global recessions of the 1970s might have had a _little_ to do with that by any chance?

 

[Vespa]

A little before my time, but I'm pretty sure that the world has changed a lot since 1973. You know, just in economic, social, political, technological and environmental terms.

Yes mega container shipping has changed a lot of thing and brought the world closer bringing down costs.

Count how many things you have brought in shops that are not made in the EU, I guarantee you it will be 9/10 of everything.

 

[Ianno87]

You have a look for yourself, lanno87, I'm sure you will find one that supports your views.

Evetybody has an opinion and will probably bring up an article that supoorts their views.

I assume you were born in 1987 and didn't know anything other the EU, whereas I have and I can tell one thing, when we joined up, prices went up and our Commonwealth trade partners lost out massively in preferential trading arrangement.

I would suggest you look up on life before 1973 youtube and the internet it's full of them.

I suggest you be less rude and think about the economic state of the UK in 1973.... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973–1975_recession#United_Kingdom) Yes, I know it's Wikipedia.

The Daily Mail is generally agreed to not be a reliable source.

 

[najaB]

Count how many things you have brought in shops that are not made in the EU, I guarantee you it will be 9/10 of everything.

Sorry, but you're wrong there.

 

[Ianno87]

Sorry, but you're wrong there.

Fruit, Food, Wine, etc. would be a good example of EU-sourced products. Plus cars, rail vehicles* etc

*I know you can't buy them in a shop!

 

[LittleAH]

I suggest you be less rude and think about the economic state of the UK in 1973.... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973–1975_recession#United_Kingdom) Yes, I know it's Wikipedia.

The Daily Mail is generally agreed to not be a reliable source.

Probably worth thinking about those small businesses who're going to effectively be put out of businesses with this. Friend of mine reckons he'll have to whack costs up 15% and let staff go to survive. Such unnecessary narrowmindedness from some people.

 

[nlogax]

Probably worth thinking about those small businesses who're going to effectively be put out of businesses with this. Friend of mine reckons he'll have to whack costs up 15% and let staff go to survive. Such unnecessary narrowmindedness from some people.

Brexit is a small-minded, embarrassing and counter-productive project bathed in the ideal of national self-harm. It was true in 2016 and it's even more true now. If Brexit was a true industry-defined project it'd fail at every hurdle.

1. Initiation - sloppy and with no apparent definition of success
2. Planning - all made up as it went along - see 2016 to now
3. Execution - see (2)
4. Monitoring and Controlling - don't make me laugh
5. Closure - from what I can tell it never will

Its desires hark back to different times and a different world, and implementing it now is effectively a desire to shrink the country's influence and economy in the name of 'freedom' or other weird flag. Brexit is not a DeLorean to better times, more a greased playground slide to a landing pit covered in..dung.

 

[Ianno87]

Brexit is a small-minded, embarrassing and counter-productive project bathed in the ideal of national self-harm. It was true in 2016 and it's even more true now. If Brexit was a true industry-defined project it'd fail at every hurdle.

1. Initiation - sloppy and with no apparent definition of success
2. Planning - all made up as it went along - see 2016 to now
3. Execution - see (2)
4. Monitoring and Controlling - don't make me laugh
5. Closure - from what I can tell it never will

Its desires hark back to different times and a different world, and implementing it now is effectively a desire to shrink the country's influence and economy in the name of 'freedom' or other weird flag. Brexit is not a DeLorean to better times, more a greased playground slide to a landing pit covered in..dung.

I'm convinced the few people clinging still clinging onto Brexit as being somehow a good idea are basically too proud to admit they've been majorly duped, and played like pianos.

 

[nlogax]

I'm convinced the few people clinging still clinging onto Brexit as being somehow a good idea are basically too proud to admit they've been majorly duped, and played like pianos.

There seem to be a fair few that are still vehement and genuine in their belief that Brexit is the right path. It's based on gut feel over facts (as has been repeatedly demonstrated over the last four years). From this perspective it looks like a cult.

 

[overthewater]

Here the problem, Many of the people that voted out haven't done very well, and until that get resolved its not going to get any better. I've seen pro EU groups hold high street rally to get more support etc One that stick in my mind was this middle class woman saying how its bad were all lost Freedom of movement and she can't go on ski-ing trips to the alp's. It just rub too many people up the wrong way and they were all like typical remainer, who's rich, and doesn't care.

Personnel I believe Brexit would have been stopped if someone in power ( decent leader) had the conviction to admit that people have been screwed over badly over the past 10 years and no one really has listened about their complaint and people who are remain tend to get the benefits. Then had a proper consultation, which includes everything including immigration.

When you swept stuff under the carpet well this is what happens.

 

[edwin_m]

Here the problem, Many of the people that voted out haven't done very well, and until that get resolved its not going to get any better. I've seen pro EU groups hold high street rally to get more support etc One that stick in my mind was this middle class woman saying how its bad were all lost Freedom of movement and she can't go on ski-ing trips to the alp's. It just rub too many people up the wrong way and they were all like typical remainer, who's rich, and doesn't care.

Personnel I believe Brexit would have been stopped if someone in power ( decent leader) had the conviction to admit that people have been screwed over badly over the past 10 years and no one really has listened about their complaint and people who are remain tend to get the benefits. Then had a proper consultation, which includes everything including immigration.

When you swept stuff under the carpet well this is what happens.

Absolutely. There are plenty of reasons to want to be in the EU that relate to the UK's economic prosperity allowing more support to those less well off (should the Westminster government choose to do so) and to safeguarding individual rights and the environment (should the Westminster government not decide to "opt out"). Most of the "screwing over" was done by Westminster governments of whatever colour over several decades not being interested in governing for the whole country. And then usually blaming the EU, which has actually tried to make things better via regional assistance.

The current government has at least promised to change that. But this is the same people who made all those milk-and-honey promises about Brexit, so please pardon my scepticism unless and until something concrete gets delivered. And of course they set off on their levelling up agenda dragging behind them the self-inflicted ball and chain of Brexit, only to find they've collected another one due to Covid and their incompetent management of it.

 

[najaB]

Most of the "screwing over" was done by Westminster governments of whatever colour over several decades not being interested in governing for the whole country. And then usually blaming the EU, which has actually tried to make things better via regional assistance.

This. Exactly this.

 

[birchesgreen]

To be honest no deal won't be quite as bad as some are painting, i am more worried that we'll still have Johnson, Gove and the rest of those "talents" in charge on January 1 than anything else to be honest.

 

[LittleAH]

To be honest no deal won't be quite as bad as some are painting, i am more worried that we'll still have Johnson, Gove and the rest of those "talents" in charge on January 1 than anything else to be honest.

Again, tell that to those businesses who are going to be seriously affected by tariffs. Or to those who're going to be affected by rising costs and inflation in the middle of a global pandemic.

 

[alex397]

Thinking long term, let’s hope the government will increase funding for mental health services. With the impact of Covid and lockdown, and the potential impacts of Brexit (and I think it’s clear there will be some), mental health services will be needed more than ever.
If more people lose their jobs, or their jobs become more stressful, or start struggling to afford increased prices, there clearly needs to be increased support. Many people are already exhausted from Covid and lockdown. I’m sure Sir Farage will campaign for and help fund all this...

Any impact on the economy is bound to have a knock-on affect on many other things.

EDIT: Apologies, this probably isn’t that relevant to this thread. Probably over-thinking really. It’s just I’ve seen the impact of Covid and the lockdown on people’s mental health. We don’t need any more potential disruption to people’s lives.

 

[birchesgreen]

Again, tell that to those businesses who are going to be seriously affected by tariffs. Or to those who're going to be affected by rising costs and inflation in the middle of a global pandemic.

Again so often people jump on a post.

I didn't say it wouldn't be BAD i said it wouldn't be as bad as some are painting which is akin to the apocalypse.

 

[alex397]

Again so often people jump on a post.

I didn't say it wouldn't be BAD i said it wouldn't be as bad as some are painting which is akin to the apocalypse.

You do have a point. For some, there probably won’t be many changes to their lives, and hopefully some aspects of it won’t be as bad as predicted.

But I still think it will do far more harm than good, and a terrible decision to go through with it.

As I live in Kent I’m worried about the local economy too. I don’t know how many, but there are plenty of businesses around here which rely on continental trade (as I’m sure there are across the country), and the predicted traffic congestion in Kent may also have an impact on local businesses.
There is also the tourism from the continent to think about - school trips from France, language students, day trippers and coach trips (the Canterbury coach park often got completely full in the summer, with foreign coaches usually outnumbering UK coaches). Also - tourism from the UK itself.

 

[Journeyman]

If you look at it in terms of potential negative effects vs. potential benefits, it's hopelessly skewed towards the former. I thought that four years ago, and I still think it now. The incompetence and idiocy that has brought us here is absolutely staggering.

 

[birchesgreen]

Indeed, we seem to have arrived at the worse of all worlds. Could have been Norway, instead its Afghanistan.

 

[yorksrob]

Arguably, being Canada would be a bearable alternative, however it seems it's not to be.