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Brexit matters

nlogax

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Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
Still, at least Brexiteers are presumably happy with what they've wrought?

On the outside, yes. They're determined to show a proud face for what they've brought upon the UK.

On the inside, some are undoubtedly regretful for what they've taken part in. Others haven't got the intelligence to even begin a real, critical analysis of what's now happening to our trade, our relations with the EU and where this is all leading for our Union.
 
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REVUpminster

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Demographic in Northern Island is changing with Catholics becoming the majority. Scotland, the SNP made a tactical error at the last referendum by vilifying the Tories, as they do now, forgetting there are 500,000 Tory voters in Scotland which if they hadn't done might have gone their way.

Tories are second biggest party in the Scottish parliment. The SNP is actually a minority government because of proportional representation.
 

najaB

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What I am bothered about is the Tory government in Westminster, who seem to be attempting to systematically take everything positive about this country and rip it to shreds, and with EU protections removed, there seems to be little to stop them now except commitments they've made.
It's that same government that is responsible for more Scots supporting independence - so it seems we have a common enemy on both sides of the border.


Scotland, the SNP made a tactical error at the last referendum by vilifying the Tories, as they do now, forgetting there are 500,000 Tory voters in Scotland which if they hadn't done might have gone their way.
It would have taken quite a lot to get members of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party to vote in favour of independence (or even to abstain). From the first lines of their "What we stand for" page:
The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party is a patriotic, unionist party of the Scottish centre-right.

We stand up for Scotland’s place in the UK, equal opportunity, enterprise and growth, localism and community and the rights of victims and the police in our justice system.
 
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Journeyman

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Must admit I'm already trying to come to terms emotionally with the likely break up of my country which is not quite where I expected to be only five year ago. I well remember waking up on the Friday morning after Indy Ref 1 with the great sense of relief that my country wasn't about to break up. I suspect it won't be many more years before I wake up and get to experience the opposite.
Absolutely my own experience. It's a particularly depressing thought that a much harder border between England and Scotland is likely, and 300 years of economic and cultural ties will be ripped to pieces.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Tories are second biggest party in the Scottish parliment. The SNP is actually a minority government because of proportional representation.
The SNP are likely to win a landslide in May.
 

JonasB

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As for other countries leaving, some think it will be eastern european countries but I wonder about Sweden if they held a referendum.

The latest poll on EU membership in Sweden show 58 % "remain", 16 % "leave" and 26 % undecided. And since 2016 the trend is that Swedes are becoming more pro-EU.
 

Journeyman

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The latest poll on EU membership in Sweden show 58 % "remain", 16 % "leave" and 26 % undecided. And since 2016 the trend is that Swedes are becoming more pro-EU.
After seeing the absolute farce we've inflicted on ourselves, leavers in other nations have gone a bit quiet.
 

najaB

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After seeing the absolute farce we've inflicted on ourselves, leavers in other nations have gone a bit quiet.
I suspect that's because, much like Mr. Farage, they make their name out of wanting to leave, rather than by actually leaving.

If we had voted to remain in 2016, Nigel would have been set for life and never have to do what he passed off as work ever again. With the result being Leave he was destined to disappear into obscurity.
 

Beemax

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I suspect that's because, much like Mr. Farage, they make their name out of wanting to leave, rather than by actually leaving.

If we had voted to remain in 2016, Nigel would have been set for life and never have to do what he passed off as work ever again. With the result being Leave he was destined to disappear into obscurity.
A bit like the dog that finally catches the car.
 

Typhoon

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It is difficult to say from a distance but I wouldn't have thought that the PM's Scottish expedition has helped his cause. Does he or his advisors not realise that he is a Marmite figure. I suspect few will have been impressed by what turned out to be little more than a photo-op, we have seen enough of the hard hat, hi-vis jacket, PPE, sitting in a (primary - always) classroom to know that (almost) nothing results from them.
Tories are second biggest party in the Scottish parliment. The SNP is actually a minority government because of proportional representation.
While this is true, that is just an inconvenience. Labour, LibDem, and Green may vote against the SNP alongside the Conservatives but are never likely to vote positively with the Conservatives, so the Conservatives will never be in a position of power in my lifetime. Next time round they will also not have Ruth Davidson as their figurehead, I gather she is red-seat Westminster bound.

With the result being Leave he was destined to disappear into obscurity.
Not yet awhile, I am being bombarded with adverts for his new venture which appears to be to convince me to buy cryptocurrencies.
 

najaB

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Not yet awhile, I am being bombarded with adverts for his new venture which appears to be to convince me to buy cryptocurrencies.
Yeah, because now he actually has to work for a living, instead of collecting an MEP salary for not turning up!
 

class ep-09

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Demographic in Northern Island is changing with Catholics becoming the majority. Scotland, the SNP made a tactical error at the last referendum by vilifying the Tories, as they do now, forgetting there are 500,000 Tory voters in Scotland which if they hadn't done might have gone their way.

Tories are second biggest party in the Scottish parliment. The SNP is actually a minority government because of proportional representation.

At least , there are proportions.

In the FPTP , much less thank half of the people voted tories, but they got 80! seats majority.

Democracy my a...
 

edwin_m

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Still, at least Brexiteers are presumably happy with what they've wrought?
The ones on here seem pretty miserable that the rest of us don't unconditionally agree with the brilliance of what they have wrought.
Scotland, the SNP made a tactical error at the last referendum by vilifying the Tories, as they do now, forgetting there are 500,000 Tory voters in Scotland which if they hadn't done might have gone their way.
The SNP is better off not going after that vote. There are plenty more Scots who loathe the Tories for Thatcherism, austerity and now Brexit too. And if the Tories wanted to make Sturgeon look good, they couldn't have done a better job than appointing a buffoon like Johnson.
Tories are second biggest party in the Scottish parliment. The SNP is actually a minority government because of proportional representation.
That means it's not truly proportional representation.

2016 Scotland: SNP 46.5% of the vote
2019 UK: Tories 43.6% of the vote

So by your criteria the current UK government is illegitimate...
 

JonasB

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After seeing the absolute farce we've inflicted on ourselves, leavers in other nations have gone a bit quiet.

Yes, from a Swedish point of view the Left party has gone very quiet on the EU. They are still an anti-EU party but they seem to have an attitude at the moment that they really don't want to talk about it.
 

Typhoon

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Yeah, because now he actually has to work for a living, instead of collecting an MEP salary for not turning up!
I hope he doesn't call that 'work', a load of bluster about taking on the media establishment and winning, and taking on the corporate establishment and winning. I hadn't noticed, they still seem to getting along just fine. Even taking on the political establishment and winning is dubious, without 'Blond Ambition' and his machiavellian henchmen and a graffitied coach, he would have come second and enjoyed the life and irresponsibility that you clearly state in #1718. I suspect though that his popularity would wane over time, I tend not to listen to old records either.
He also boasts of how his capital has generated little in the way of interest; exactly how difficult does he think accessing best buy tables is? I would have offered him lessons at £500 a time if I had known (why not, he's charging £199 for his newsletter which apparently includes a load of risky investments, completely unsuitable for the average investor who is looking to fund 'a holiday of a lifetime' not achieve the adrenaline rush that putting a ton on the two-thirty at Cartmel achieves with the same result but over a longer period).
 

bspahh

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There are some excerpts at https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1356228242273931266 from a 41 page interview with Philip Hammond at the
Brexit Witness Archive https://ukandeu.ac.uk/interview-pdf/?personid=42190

For example:

David Davis in particular had this very crude 1980s approach to negotiation. I know David quite well, I knew him before I went into politics – David’s backstory is that he was the trouble-shooter for Tate & Lyle. When there was a problem, they sent David Davis. Shut down a refinery, fire a load of people, get rid of the troublemakers: the bare-knuckle fighter. That’s how he liked to see himself. David Davis’ approach to negotiation is you slap it on the table, you lean across, and you eyeball them. If they don’t give way immediately, you say, ‘I’ll see you round the back.’ That was always his view on this. ‘We’ve got the money, they want our money, so we wave a cheque at them then we stick it in our back pocket and we say, ‘Right, show us what you’ve got’. In the end, they’ll want our money. They’ll want access to our market. How long is this going to take, 15 minutes? Give me 15 minutes in a room with these people. I’ll sort them out.’ That was his view of the world, and it was widely shared among the Brexiteers.
 

raetiamann

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Not on the scale it is now. I always thought the government did not spend a lot of money on Cornwall or Devon because it was a fertile area of recruitment for the army and navy. In fact covid has boosted recruitment to the armed services.
Cornwall and quite a number of other regions had European monies under their Objective 1, 2 & 5b, which was provided to improve infrastructure and to support and provide new jobs. The Brexit bus, not surprisingly focused on the monies we paid to the EU, but almost half of that came back to the UK in the form of grants. Maybe improving infrastructure increases the ease of getting to second homes, but I'd guess locals enjoyed the benefits too.
 

jon0844

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Cornwall and quite a number of other regions had European monies under their Objective 1, 2 & 5b, which was provided to improve infrastructure and to support and provide new jobs. The Brexit bus, not surprisingly focused on the monies we paid to the EU, but almost half of that came back to the UK in the form of grants. Maybe improving infrastructure increases the ease of getting to second homes, but I'd guess locals enjoyed the benefits too.

Travelling to north Wales, Cumbria, Devon/Cornwall, all you used to see was the EU plaques to show things funded by the EU.

I am amazed anyone in those places voted leave (which they did) on the basis that the UK Government would continue to maintain such funding.

I assume they'll be hoping for Lottery funding now? Does anyone even still play the Lotto these days?
 

alex397

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There has been an "upsurge of sinister behaviour" towards council staff on Brexit inspection duties at Larne in Northern Ireland. Of course the sinister behaviour has always been there, simmering under the surface, but this is one of the more concerning potential impacts of Brexit - the threat to peace on the island of Ireland.

This issue should have been planned for when we had the referendum.

See BBC News article here

Brexit: Mid and East Antrim withdraws staff after 'menacing behaviour'​

45 minutes ago
By Jayne McCormack
BBC News NI Political Reporter

Mid and East Antrim Council says it has withdrawn staff from Brexit inspection duties at Larne Port due to concerns for their safety.
DUP mayor Peter Johnston said party group leaders had taken the decision on Monday afternoon.
He cited "menacing behaviour" referencing growing tensions over the NI Protocol.
He told a council meeting that staff assisting with checks had raised concerns about "suspicious activity".
"We have no option but to withdraw them [staff] in order to fulfil our duty of care," said Mr Johnston.

He added that he would write to the Agriculture and Environment Minister Edwin Poots, who holds responsibility over the issue, to make him aware of the decision.
In a statement, the council said there had been an "upsurge in sinister behaviour" in recent weeks, including graffiti describing port staff as "targets", and what appeared to be attempts to gather workers' personal information, including licence plates.
The council said it will carry out a full risk assessment with the PSNI, Food Standards Agency and the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs.
Before council's decision on Monday, there were 12 environmental health officers working at Larne Port, as well as several senior council officers.

'Simmering tensions'​


Sinn Féin's group party leader, councillor James McKeown, said staff would only return when it was safe.
"There are simmering tensions within the local community at present and we will not stand by and let our staff be targeted when they are just doing their jobs."
SDLP councillor Eugene Reid said leaders had fallen short: "The language used and tone of the discussion relating to the Northern Ireland Protocol has raised tensions and whipped up fear.
"It should be the role of all leaders to extract the poison from public dialogue, and I'm challenging everyone to do that."


Protocol 'needs to go'​



East Antrim Sammy Wilson said the NI Protocol has to go - "but politics is the way".
He said staff safety was paramount.
"All threats must be condemned and cross party support for withdrawal is welcome.
"Those parties who talked up the threat of violence during the negotiations need to reflect.
Border Control Posts (BCPs) were built at Larne harbour, and two other facilities in NI as a consequence of Brexit.
They are facilities for inspecting food and live animals when they arrive from other parts of the UK.
At the end of the Brexit transition on 1 January 2021, Northern Ireland remained in the single market for goods.
The rest of the UK did not, so some products entering Northern Ireland from GB must be checked on entry.
The EU has particularly strict rules on food and animals, requiring all those products to enter through a BCP.
 
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najaB

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This issue should have been planned for when we had the referendum.
This government thinks that you can farm lettuce in January and that fish are happy because they're now British. Do we really think that they could consider anything as complex as internecine violence in Northern Ireland?
 

jon0844

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This government thinks that you can farm lettuce in January and that fish are happy because they're now British. Do we really think that they could consider anything as complex as internecine violence in Northern Ireland?

The fish are happy because for now they won't be fished as they can't be sold to anyone.

So the fishing trade is upset they got thrown under the bus to help Boris get a rushed last-second deal.
The textile industry is outraged and writing open letters to the Government.
People in Pembrokeshire are devastated that they've lost their haulage industry.

So. much. winning!!
 

Journeyman

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The fish are happy because for now they won't be fished as they can't be sold to anyone.

So the fishing trade is upset they got thrown under the bus to help Boris get a rushed last-second deal.
The textile industry is outraged and writing open letters to the Government.
People in Pembrokeshire are devastated that they've lost their haulage industry.

So. much. winning!!
The fish have more freedom of movement than we do.
 

GusB

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This government thinks that you can farm lettuce in January and that fish are happy because they're now British.

The fish have more freedom of movement than we do.
Has anyone conducted any opinion polls among the fish population in order to ascertain if they're happy being British? What about those north of the border, or those in the Irish sea? ;)
 

REVUpminster

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Greenpeace are happy if it means EU trawlers are not scouring the seabed. Fisherman are unhappy but who are they going to sell the fish to as all the restaurants are closed. Similar has happened in farming with milk production. French champagne growers are happy because we are all drowning our sorrows.
 

nlogax

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Fisherman are unhappy but who are they going to sell the fish to as all the restaurants are closed.

The British are not exactly wild about fish unless it's cod or haddock. Any Brexit benefit to allow us to keep more of our horse mackerel, hake and sprat will involve a substantial effort to widen the national appetite beyond fish and chips - something freely available even through lockdowns.
 

notlob.divad

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There has been an "upsurge of sinister behaviour" towards council staff on Brexit inspection duties at Larne in Northern Ireland. Of course the sinister behaviour has always been there, simmering under the surface, but this is one of the more concerning potential impacts of Brexit - the threat to peace on the island of Ireland.

This issue should have been planned for when we had the referendum.

See BBC News article here
Very concerning, and some might say an inevitable consequence of Brexit. Increasing trade friction with ROI or UK was always going to cause tensions with one side or another in the North of Ireland.
 

matacaster

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I'd love to see some justification behind this, because I'm not convinced that it is the case. Our largest import is motor vehicles (£48.5b in 2019) and I really don't see that going domestically (much as I wish it might!) - our next largest goods import sectors are medicine & pharmacy (£17.7b), Electrical machinery & appliances (£11.4b), Misc manufactured articles (£10.5b) and General industrial machinery & equipment (£10.1). I don't see how we are supposed to wean ourselves off of European supply and set up equivalent domestic versions of these industries, given their generally specialist nature.
There is an opportunity for an entrepreneurial newcomer a la tesla to create a new start electric manufacturer. Sadly the existing UK manufacturers largely just assemble components, often from EU because the companies spread their base across EU to assist in selling their products as partly home grown in each country. The likes of ford's engine plant, vauxhall etc have no future. The move to electric or better still hydrogen power means that lots of traditional car parts are no longer required. Tesla started out as a new company and hasn't bought a traditional manufacturer precisely because it is building efficient plants to build electric cars, not try and max out value on old petrol and diesel technology. Ford, BMW, vauxhall do much in the way of design in uk the good jobs and processes have been sucked into germany.
 

matacaster

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There is one thing for certain in all this. Relations between the EU and the UK are extremely strained. I would go as far as to suggest relations have not been this strained in decades. I find attitudes like @21C101 of comparing the EU to a brutal dictatorship absolutely abhorrent. The pure fact that straight after we have left the EU the BoJo Govt's very first review is into workers rights is self-evident as to the great things about the EU. The EU has many many faults but every worker is entitled to rest breaks, holiday pay, overtime payments among other protections. Would a brutal dictatorship have such good workers rights protections? I doubt it!!
Just because the govt is reviewing job protections doesn't mean they will necessarily be worse overall.
 

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