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Brexit matters

najaB

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As I already said, Malaysia. We can easily sell more to that one country, than our entire EU market.
Which is fine for your company. And I wish you nothing but success.

However I doubt that the Malaysian market (GDP = USD 392 billion), represents a larger potential market than the EU (GDP = USD 16,000 billion) for the vast majority of UK producers.

As an aside, what is it in particular that prevents you selling EU standards compliant products in the Malaysian market?
 
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jon0844

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Does supplying to Malaysia instead of the EU scale up well for all businesses?

Should the Government be advising UK PLC on this?
 

edwin_m

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Which is fine for your company. And I wish you nothing but success.

However I doubt that the Malaysian market (GDP = USD 392 billion), represents a larger potential market than the EU (GDP = USD 16,000 billion) for the vast majority of UK producers.

As an aside, what is it in particular that prevents you selling EU standards compliant products in the Malaysian market?
And this company was obviously successful in selling to that market without CPTPP, so perhaps won't benefit from the UK joining it?
 

Fleetmaster

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As an aside, what is it in particular that prevents you selling EU standards compliant products in the Malaysian market?
Only cost and time. Things the EU has never really cared about.

As in why should we expend the extra cost and time if we don't need to? We already as a matter of course make our machines to highly bespoke requirements, so standardization offers little benefit.
 

jon0844

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It's interesting that we aren't being told what this magical machine is, and why the Malaysians are keep to buy them when the EU isn't...
 

najaB

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It's interesting that we aren't being told what this magical machine is, and why the Malaysians are keep to buy them when the EU isn't...
I have no reason to doubt the veracity of @Fleetmaster's description of his company's trade prospects.

I have plenty of reason to doubt that their fortunate position is replicated by many (any?) other UK businesses.
 

Fleetmaster

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It's interesting that we aren't being told what this magical machine is, and why the Malaysians are keep to buy them when the EU isn't...
It's an automated testing platform. It's needed by large companies in the pharmaceutical sector. Cannot say more because you never know who is listening.

We've sold what we can to the EU, but they're very reluctant to replace humans with machines, even though our machines eliminates human error in the critical pipeline of product development and assurance.

Malaysia and other countries like it are fast developing their own pharmaceutical capabilities, and have no real attachment to the arcane practices of the mainland Europeans, or to be specific, the western European nations, who use compliance and other barriers to trade to jealously prevent even their Eastern European neighbours from being anything but bit part players in such high tech, high value businesses.

It's a protectionist bloc that has had its day, without ever achieving global dominance in any field, including pharmaceutical, despite the UK being one of the early pioneers. The EU has held us back, in so many ways.

Time to find new partners and new opportunities.

If they diverge, our preferred path is rather obvious. With these new markets and other existing global leaders like the US more than enough business for us, well, they can't say they weren't warned that they risk cutting off thier only supply of our kit. They certainly can't copy it, and lack the nimbleness and expertise to make their own, at least not for another ten years, by which time we might just think it worth our while to offer the EU an upgrade. If we're not too busy of course!

Even if we added the cost of CE marking to the new design so we could sell it to them at the cost it incurs to us to do business with them, it would still be cheaper cheaper anything they can make.
 

najaB

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Malaysia and other countries like it are fast developing their own pharmaceutical capabilities
Would these be the same pharmaceutical companies who are responsible for massive contamination of fresh water supplies for the local populations?


Now if only there were regulations about what companies can discharge into the environment...
 

Fleetmaster

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Would these be the same pharmaceutical companies who are responsible for massive contamination of fresh water supplies for the local populations?


Now if only there were regulations about what companies can discharge into the environment...
I believe the Remainer position here is that if you're not in the club you don't get to set the rules much less enforce them. The EU can try to be a good global citizen and persuade sovereign nations like Malaysia not to poison their own citizens. Do they have any leverage to achieve that? A trading relationship perhaps? A presence on the global stage with a proven track record of making things better, not worse?

The facts are the UK was already a strong global player with huge soft power, and our ability to persuade a country like Malaysia of the benefits of not poisoning their own citizens is greatly increased by being thoroughly divorced from any future closer political integration of the EU, and further taking advantage of that divorce by fostering even closer links with places like Malaysia as equal partners.

One could argue the most pressing concern for ordinary Malaysians is the climate crisis, the rise of China, the scarcity of rare commodities and the integrity of international institutions like the WHO and the UN. I'd frankly be amazed if anyone who voted Remian did so because they think the EU has been a stellar performer in those areas of global influence.

We're now even more closely aligned with other strong democratic nations in their region, while the EU can barely organize the defence of its own borders without turning it into yet another opportunity to revive one of their ailing sectors to further grease the Euro merry-go-round while not attracting a jot of inward investment or external prestige. Even though their former friend and neighbor could meet their needs with their eyes shut, because we excel in so many areas. EU law says we can't even ship that to EU governments for free, unless of course we stamp the crates "NATO".
 

class ep-09

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.

We're now even more closely aligned with other strong democratic nations in their region, while the EU can barely organize the defence of its own borders without turning it into yet another opportunity to revive one of their ailing sectors to further grease the Euro merry-go-round while not attracting a jot of inward investment or external prestige. Even though their former friend and neighbor could meet their needs with their eyes shut, because we excel in so many areas. EU law says we can't even ship that to EU governments for free, unless of course we stamp the crates "NATO".

Brexiters constantly moaned about EU Army , how bad it is going to be, and now are telling us EU should have one???


EU is not there to protect borders of its members militarily .
 
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jfollows

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The ludicrous, obnoxious and unworkable "retained EU law bill" (Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3340) is going to be abandoned by the government, reports The Observer (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rom-brexit-bill-to-scrap-thousands-of-eu-laws).
It was clearly never going to work, so at least Rishi Sunak has seen sense in abandoning it rather than allowing Jacob Rees-Mogg (or his successors, apparently Kemi Badenoch, whom I neither like nor trust, but who seems to be relatively popular) to plough on dogmatically.
This was the bill which would automatically scrap EU laws on the statute book at the end of 2023, unless specifically exempted, in a stupid demonstration of "sovereignty", rather than modifying the statutes in a controlled and sensible manner, which will of course take time and effort.
One option might be to change the date to the end of 2024, which would then mean that it's extremely unlikely that the bill would ever come into force, given that a Labour government would prevent it from doing so.
The Observer
Brexit
Government retreats from Brexit bill plan to ditch EU laws
Climbdown likely after cross-party Lords revolt threatens to defeat Jacob Rees-Mogg’s retained EU law bill
Toby Helm Observer political editor
Sun 9 Apr 2023 08.00 BST
Ministers have begun a full-scale retreat over post-Brexit plans to ditch thousands of EU laws by the end of this year, after Tory peers warned they would join a mass cross-party revolt in the House of Lords.

The Observer can reveal that the government has dropped plans to hold the report stage of the Brexiters’ retained EU law bill in the Lords soon after Easter, apparently to prevent a row in the run-up to the local elections on 4 May and to allow it time to consider a list of likely concessions to rebels.

While such a climbdown risks angering hardline Tory Brexiters, including the bill’s original champion, Jacob Rees-Mogg, the extent of opposition to it from business, environmental groups, unions and Brussels has left ministers with no option but to consider delay, and moving to a scaled-down and less hurried version.

No new dates have been set for the report stage and peers now believe the much-criticised bill could be put back by months and possibly beyond the next general election.

Under the bill’s provisions, more than 4,000 EU laws kept on the UK statute book after Brexit to ensure continuity would be automatically scrapped at the end of this year, unless ministers decide that there should be exemptions.

A key complaint is the way it would cut both houses of parliament out of decisions on which EU laws should be ditched, ceding that power to unelected civil servants and ministers. This is despite the fact that Rees-Mogg and his fellow Brexiters said that leaving the EU would be a way of restoring sovereignty to parliament.

A group of Labour, Tory, Liberal Democrat and crossbench peers has been meeting in secret for weeks to discuss how to amend the bill.

While Tory and other peers are keen not to be seen to be conducting their arguments in public, the issues have united both pro-Brexit Conservatives such as former Tory minister Archie Hamilton and leading remainers, such as Patrick Cormack and former transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin.

In a speech at the second reading of the bill, Lord Cormack described it as a “constitutional monstrosity”.

David Hope, a former deputy president of the UK supreme court who sits as a crossbencher and has tabled a series of amendments, told the Observer he was not interested in scoring political points, or arguments involving Brexit versus remain, but was acting for the good of the country.

“I do not have a political agenda with regard to this bill, but my general concern is with the accuracy and workability of legislation, and the way this bill is currently framed it is not capable of doing the job it is designed to do,” he said.

A senior Tory peer with knowledge of recent talks with government figures on the future of the bill added: “What I can tell you is that discussions are going on at the highest levels. Ministers are aware that if they do not make concessions, then they there is the prospect of the government being defeated.”

Another source in the Lords said: “The penny has dropped with No 10. There is a recognition that unless they make concessions they are in ‘baby out with the bathwater’ territory. They will be causing legal chaos on many fronts for the sake of pleasing Rees-Mogg and the Tory right.”

Concern has also been rising within government departments over the amount of civil service time that the bill has been taking and, more recently, the way the legal fallout could complicate Rishi Sunak’s recently signed Windsor framework deal with Brussels on the operation of the Northern Ireland protocol.

Senior figures in Brussels have also weighed in, saying that if environmental and other standards are allowed to fall in the UK, threatening the so-called “level playing field”, this could seriously undermine the UK’s post-Brexit trade deal with the EU and potentially lead to a trade war.

A government spokesman denied that any retreat was under way, saying: “We are fully committed to the retained EU law bill, a key part of delivering our commitment of removing and reforming burdensome retained EU law.

“Once passed, the bill will enable the country to further seize the opportunities of Brexit by ensuring regulations fit the needs of the UK, helping to drive economic growth and innovation.”

The bill is now the responsibility Kemi Badenoch, the business and trade secretary. One idea understood to be under consideration is for Badenoch to announce in the coming months a list of obviously redundant EU laws that could be abolished without controversy and hail this symbolic move as proof that ministers were delivering on Brexit.

Another idea is to extend the “sunset clause” under which laws would cease to apply by at least another year, taking them beyond the likely date of the next general election, meaning the bill would in effect never come into force. Within the civil service, officials say it is inevitable that most of the EU laws will be retained.
 

Howardh

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The polls have shown that the Tories are on the crest of a slump, way behind Labour. However, while the "stop the boats" and refugee policy doesn't seem to have helped them in the polls, I wonder if their softening r/e the EU might give them a bounce?

Thinking out loud...the Tory's No1 priority is to be in power, and No2 is to stay in power. They backed down to Farage for that to happen and called the referendum, and played the hard-exit mantra "Get Brexit Done" in 2019 to stay in power.

However, with Labour being silent r/e the EU, could the Tories now jump on the softening/single market/rejoin wagon and try to get back those of us who abandoned the Tories due to their stance on Europe? They've u-turned before, and it wouldn't surprise me if they abandoned their Brexit-voting blue/red wall constituences and hope for a win with a small majority?

"Vote For Us we'll make travel/importing/exporting to and from Europe seamless again"???

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/ poll-of-polls showing Labour currently on 46% compared with Tories 28%
 

py_megapixel

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However, with Labour being silent r/e the EU, could the Tories now jump on the softening/single market/rejoin wagon and try to get back those of us who abandoned the Tories due to their stance on Europe? They've u-turned before, and it wouldn't surprise me if they abandoned their Brexit-voting blue/red wall constituences and hope for a win with a small majority?
I would hope the electorate would know better than to believe them...
 

py_megapixel

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Did they last time?
No - but given how much worse things are now than in 2019 (which, considering how many of us felt in 2019, is saying quite a lot!), I would still hope.

I honestly can't understand how anybody - other than maybe the very rich - could possibly look at the current state (of politics or of everyday life) in this country and thinking voting Tory is remotely a good idea.
 

class ep-09

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The ludicrous, obnoxious and unworkable "retained EU law bill" (Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3340) is going to be abandoned by the government, reports The Observer (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rom-brexit-bill-to-scrap-thousands-of-eu-laws).
It was clearly never going to work, so at least Rishi Sunak has seen sense in abandoning it rather than allowing Jacob Rees-Mogg (or his successors, apparently Kemi Badenoch, whom I neither like nor trust, but who seems to be relatively popular) to plough on dogmatically.
This was the bill which would automatically scrap EU laws on the statute book at the end of 2023, unless specifically exempted, in a stupid demonstration of "sovereignty", rather than modifying the statutes in a controlled and sensible manner, which will of course take time and effort.
One option might be to change the date to the end of 2024, which would then mean that it's extremely unlikely that the bill would ever come into force, given that a Labour government would prevent it from doing so.
No surprise here .

That bill was to satisfy foam frothing , ever angry , anti everything to do with Europe bunch of MP’s ( and tories members ) , without consideration for consequences .
 

Howardh

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This "dropping of the tearing up of EU laws" is quite an irony. The Upper House says it would revolt against it, so the ripping up of EU laws is now ditched by the Lowe House. So, an unelected body dictating the UK's government; now, remind me...???
 

najaB

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Unfortunately Labour haven't ever proved to be any better.
But only a masochist of the highest order would continue to support the Tory government currently punching then in the face because the last Labour government stood on their toes.
 

jfollows

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This "dropping of the tearing up of EU laws" is quite an irony. The Upper House says it would revolt against it, so the ripping up of EU laws is now ditched by the Lower House. So, an unelected body dictating the UK's government; now, remind me...???
Yes, however the law - if enacted - would have effectively allowed the (elected, admittedly) government to bypass any kind of parliamentary scrutiny, oversight or control over the bulk scrapping of laws.
It has always seemed to me, and this proposed legislation exemplified this, that the aim of the right of the Conservative party was to move power from (elected) Brussels to (elected) them. And I know which I trust more.
From above:
A key complaint is the way it would cut both houses of parliament out of decisions on which EU laws should be ditched, ceding that power to unelected civil servants and ministers. This is despite the fact that Rees-Mogg and his fellow Brexiters said that leaving the EU would be a way of restoring sovereignty to parliament.
 
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edwin_m

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The polls have shown that the Tories are on the crest of a slump, way behind Labour. However, while the "stop the boats" and refugee policy doesn't seem to have helped them in the polls, I wonder if their softening r/e the EU might give them a bounce?

Thinking out loud...the Tory's No1 priority is to be in power, and No2 is to stay in power. They backed down to Farage for that to happen and called the referendum, and played the hard-exit mantra "Get Brexit Done" in 2019 to stay in power.

However, with Labour being silent r/e the EU, could the Tories now jump on the softening/single market/rejoin wagon and try to get back those of us who abandoned the Tories due to their stance on Europe? They've u-turned before, and it wouldn't surprise me if they abandoned their Brexit-voting blue/red wall constituences and hope for a win with a small majority?

"Vote For Us we'll make travel/importing/exporting to and from Europe seamless again"???

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/ poll-of-polls showing Labour currently on 46% compared with Tories 28%
The Farage factor is still there - the Tories lose votes on the right to Reform UK if they try to move back to the centre. That won't gain Reform many (or probably any) seats but will cost the Tories some - and Reform's ideal outcome as in 2019 is to offer to stand down candidates if the Tories adopt right-wing policies to their liking.

But if the Tories move right they lose votes to Labour who have now come back to the centre. Those who complain that Starmer is being bland or not doing anything radical aren't recognising that with the public memory of Corbyn, that's his only route to power and without power he can't do anything at all.

Along with the tensions between the wings of the party, that probably explains why the Tories appear to be trying to face both ways at once. I suspect and hope that in that pincer movement there's no way for them to retain power.
 

jon0844

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The polls have shown that the Tories are on the crest of a slump, way behind Labour. However, while the "stop the boats" and refugee policy doesn't seem to have helped them in the polls, I wonder if their softening r/e the EU might give them a bounce?

Thinking out loud...the Tory's No1 priority is to be in power, and No2 is to stay in power. They backed down to Farage for that to happen and called the referendum, and played the hard-exit mantra "Get Brexit Done" in 2019 to stay in power.

However, with Labour being silent r/e the EU, could the Tories now jump on the softening/single market/rejoin wagon and try to get back those of us who abandoned the Tories due to their stance on Europe? They've u-turned before, and it wouldn't surprise me if they abandoned their Brexit-voting blue/red wall constituences and hope for a win with a small majority?

"Vote For Us we'll make travel/importing/exporting to and from Europe seamless again"???

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/ poll-of-polls showing Labour currently on 46% compared with Tories 28%

I posted almost the same thing on here some considerable time ago, namely that the Tories could actually backtrack a lot on Brexit, and selling it as a great new trading relationship with the EU (i.e. short of being an EU member but re-allowing free movement and no customs etc) and emphasising our supposed ability to control the borders (a power we already had of course).

If they allowed some facility in France to process asylum claims, they might even see a reduction in boats - and suddenly they can look like they've got some control.

Allowing people to come here again to work would then solve a lot of problems with shortages in the NHS etc, as well as fixing the supply chain issues affecting businesses.

Labour, having been quiet by sitting on the fence, and realising the tide has turned would of course then pipe up and say they'd support the same - but it will then be too late.

I am not sure Rishi quite has that in him to implement, and while I am no fan of his, I do think he's successful at making money and is more pragmatic than most - clearly realising the current situation is not working. His speech about how great things were for people in Northern Ireland proves the point, and he obviously knew that what he was describing was a situation that the whole of the UK should be in.
 

najaB

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Labour, having been quiet by sitting on the fence, and realising the tide has turned would of course then pipe up and say they'd support the same - but it will then be too late.
I suspect that Labour will come off the fence if there are one or two more pro-EU pronouncements from the Conservatives.
 

jon0844

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I suspect that Labour will come off the fence if there are one or two more pro-EU pronouncements from the Conservatives.

I do too, but being fairly neutral and vague for so long is going to be jumped on by the Tories. The campaigning is going to be very dirty - possibly (to quote Trump) like we've never seen before.
 

Cloud Strife

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However I doubt that the Malaysian market (GDP = USD 392 billion), represents a larger potential market than the EU (GDP = USD 16,000 billion) for the vast majority of UK producers.

Not to mention the immense cultural differences. It's lunacy to focus on far-off markets with large costs when you can do business with people who are a cheap flight away.

It's the same reason why my company doesn't do business with Cypriots: the Cyprus market is too far away and too small to be worthwhile. There might be free trade within the EU, but why bother going all that way to deal with awkward Cypriots when you can just do business with Germany or Scandinavia instead?
 

DynamicSpirit

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I posted almost the same thing on here some considerable time ago, namely that the Tories could actually backtrack a lot on Brexit, and selling it as a great new trading relationship with the EU (i.e. short of being an EU member but re-allowing free movement and no customs etc) and emphasising our supposed ability to control the borders (a power we already had of course).

How on Earth did we have the power to control our borders when we were bound by free movement rules?

If they allowed some facility in France to process asylum claims, they might even see a reduction in boats - and suddenly they can look like they've got some control.

Remind me again why, if someone is already in a safe country (France) and is knowingly declining the chance to claim asylum in that country, we should set up an office to let them apply for asylum in the UK instead?

As for, reduction in boats... assuming we do what you suggest... what do you think the people smugglers are going to do if it becomes apparent that smuggling someone into France becomes sufficient to allow that person to claim asylum in the UK? How do you think that will impact the numbers of boats crossing the Mediterranean? And what do you think anyone in France who is refused asylum in the UK will do, if the people smugglers are on hand to offer them a trip to the UK anyway?
 

jon0844

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I expect a lot of people coming are in lorries not being checked at Dover right now.. coming in right underneath our nose, along with counterfeit goods, dodgy food and more. You know, because we can't check goods coming in due to lack of resources (and then we moan that France IS doing its checks the other way).

And you know exactly what I mean about protecting borders, given we aren't in the Schengen Area. At one point 10 years ago, I thought we might join. How wrong I was - and imagine the difference if we had.

As for the smuggling on boats. If they had to apply for asylum in France, then they could be treated as illegals in the water and dealt with differently to now - where they can land and claim asylum, and be put into a camp. Your argument about why they should be given asylum here and not France or any other EU state can then be dealt with. In France.
 

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