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Brexit matters

najaB

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Why is that any different? I don’t see the difference. Both are a removal of rights.
The difference is that in the case of the smoking ban it was the codifying of people's right to fresh air which had the result of removing a non-codified right to smoke in public. Unlike Brexit which removed a codified right in order to...

Speaking of Brexit benefits, the failure of the Government to implement effective (or any) checks on imports to the UK is posing a serious risk to the public health:
Maggot-infested meat dripping blood on to ready-to-eat food was among the illegal products found during an inspection of lorries at Dover.

Over a 24-hour period this month, Dover port officials checked eastern European food lorries entering the UK. They searched 22 vehicles of Romanian, Moldovan, Ukrainian and Polish origin: illegal meat imports were found in 21 of them. The inspectors found raw animal products loosely stored in carrier bags and tissue without temperature control, refrigeration or labelled identification. The items were not separated from products such as cheese, crisps and cake.
Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...overed-during-lorry-checks-at-dover-gm6lgv0w5 (behind a paywall).
 
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duncanp

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Speaking of Brexit benefits, the failure of the Government to implement effective (or any) checks on imports to the UK is posing a serious risk to the public health:

Source: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...overed-during-lorry-checks-at-dover-gm6lgv0w5 (behind a paywall).

Isn't this a contradiction?

You say that the government has "..failed to implement effective (or any) checks on imports to the UK..", and yet the illegal meat was found when

"..Dover port officials checked eastern European food lorries entering the UK..."

So it is clear that checks are being carried out, but it is impossible to check every lorry 100%.

This is no different to when the UK was in the EU.

Indeed it could argued that the lack of customs controls when the UK was in the EU led to more illegal imports
 

najaB

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So it is clear that checks are being carried out, but it is impossible to check every lorry 100%.
No. This was a one-off test to see what the situation is. There are no routine checks.

21 out of 22 lorries is pretty close to 100% of consignments having issues - which only happens because they (the shippers) know that they are virtually guaranteed to get away with it.
 

Cloud Strife

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So it is clear that checks are being carried out, but it is impossible to check every lorry 100%.

It's not impossible: this is routine and standard on the Eastern EU border, and was previously done on the German border with Poland/Czech Republic.

The problem is that it's time consuming and requires a lot of resources to do it, which is why (for instance) the only BCP for food exports to Gibraltar is via Algeciras and not via the main land border at La Linea.
 

najaB

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It's not impossible: this is routine and standard on the Eastern EU border, and was previously done on the German border with Poland/Czech Republic.
Thing is, we're not checking even 1% of lorries, and don't appear to have any plans to start doing so.
The House of Lords European Affairs Committee has today written to the Minister for Brexit Opportunities, Rt Hon Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, regarding the Government’s recent decision to delay the introduction of import controls on EU goods entering Great Britain for the fourth time. The Committee has asked the Minister to clarify the implications of this decision for UK biosecurity, as well as the impact on GB exporters of ongoing asymmetry at the border.
 

Cloud Strife

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Thing is, we're not checking even 1% of lorries, and don't appear to have any plans to start doing so.

I think this is a very clear sign that they know that the infrastructure is not there (and will never be there) to actually enforce customs controls at the UK border.
 

nw1

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I think it’s safe to say that following the next general election, we will have a much closer relationship to the EU.

I certainly hope so.

But I think it will depend on Labour becoming the largest party and Starmer becoming PM. I don't hold out much hope that Sunak will improve things.

That's not to say the Tories will never adopt a pro-EU attitude in the future, but I think it'll take a complete clearout of the current lot in order to do so, and the only way I see that happening is a period with Labour in power. That, or Hard Brexit causes insurmountable problems that forces them to change tack.
 

REVUpminster

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The Tory government campaigned to stay in the EU. The 2019 election brought in a lot of Brexiteer MPs. The people spoke.
 

edwin_m

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There is a belief on here that all Tories were Brexiteers and Labour, and the unions, all pro EU.
Indeed, Labour's position in 2019 on Brexit was pretty ambiguous and neither Remain nor Leave voters would have been confident of getting what they wanted by voting for them. The only clear voting option for anyone who thought Remain was the most important issue would have been the LibDems, who messed up their campaign in a big way, compounding their inherent disadvantage under FPTP and ensuring that votes for them were wasted nearly everywhere.
For this reason, and because of all the other reasons Labour was fairly unelectable at the time, the Tory win wasn't really a popular mandate for Brexit.
 

GS250

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The Tory government campaigned to stay in the EU. The 2019 election brought in a lot of Brexiteer MPs. The people spoke.

David Cameron certainly did.

The irony being that after that humiliation in Brussels where he attempted to claw back some concessions and got sent packing, had he campaigned to take Britain out of the EU, there's a fair chance the EU would have come rushing back to him to agree his 'demands'.

It was probably that failure to negotiate that was the catalyst for the ensuing events.
 

reddragon

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Indeed, Labour's position in 2019 on Brexit was pretty ambiguous and neither Remain nor Leave voters would have been confident of getting what they wanted by voting for them. The only clear voting option for anyone who thought Remain was the most important issue would have been the LibDems, who messed up their campaign in a big way, compounding their inherent disadvantage under FPTP and ensuring that votes for them were wasted nearly everywhere.
For this reason, and because of all the other reasons Labour was fairly unelectable at the time, the Tory win wasn't really a popular mandate for Brexit.
I think that Labour could simply see the scale of division so chose to sit on the fence until clarity came into view and in doing so avoided being ripped apart as in the case of the Tories today.
 

dosxuk

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so goodbye £
I wouldn't worry about losing the pound. The EU know that's a political non starter in the UK, and there's very little benefit to anyone to tie is into the Euro. On the contrary, it's benefited them multiple times to have access to two different global currencies.

Expect it to be a requirement to work towards implementing the Euro, but like other countries, the conditions set never actually being achieved and the pound remaining indefinitely.

If course the anti-EU side of the press will be shouting about the imminent demise of the pound, but it's not like they're above making stuff up to fit their narrative anyway.
 

najaB

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Expect it to be a requirement to work towards implementing the Euro, but like other countries, the conditions set never actually being achieved and the pound remaining indefinitely.
Exactly. Sweden, for example, simply has not joined the ERM and so can't legally implement the Euro (one of the requirements is two years continuous participation in the ERM). The EU is (for the last 20 years at least) happy to play along with the fiction that they've just 'not got around to' joining the ERM.
 

GS250

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I wouldn't worry about losing the pound. The EU know that's a political non starter in the UK, and there's very little benefit to anyone to tie is into the Euro. On the contrary, it's benefited them multiple times to have access to two different global currencies.

Expect it to be a requirement to work towards implementing the Euro, but like other countries, the conditions set never actually being achieved and the pound remaining indefinitely.

If course the anti-EU side of the press will be shouting about the imminent demise of the pound, but it's not like they're above making stuff up to fit their narrative anyway.

I'd suggest given that we're silently heading towards a digital, cashless global currency (no agenda, just evolution), that there would be other powers more interested in consolidating currencies across the globe. The EU are relatively minor players in dictating what currency the UK uses
 

edwin_m

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I think that Labour could simply see the scale of division so chose to sit on the fence until clarity came into view and in doing so avoided being ripped apart as in the case of the Tories today.
But at the cost of their worst defeat in many decades. Admittedly with various other contributing factors.

They achieved a significant advance in 2017 by essentially ignoring Brexit and campaigning on other Tory weaknesses - though not enough to win power of course.

In 2019 that wouldn't work because with the Parliamentary chaos in the run-up to the election, most voters on both sides of the debate saw that it needed to be resolved one way or the other. It seems to me it was simply a disagreement between the Corbynites who thought Brexit would open the door to some sort of socialist Utopia and happened to be in charge at the time, and most of the rest of the party who saw it for the disaster it's now turning out to be.
 

Falcon1200

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Speaking of Brexit benefits, the failure of the Government to implement effective (or any) checks on imports to the UK is posing a serious risk to the public health:

So, were such checks on goods entering from the UK from the EU carried out pre-Brexit, and if so have such checks been abolished as a direct result of Brexit?

Presumably too the EU countries through which such goods are conveyed en route to the UK, and indeed from which some of these goods originate in the first place, have no checks whatsoever in place - And would that apply say to meat from Poland, an EU country, destined for countries other than the UK?
 

edwin_m

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Video from the Financial Times (not paywalled) on the economic effects of Brexit.
 

najaB

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So, were such checks on goods entering from the UK from the EU carried out pre-Brexit, and if so have such checks been abolished as a direct result of Brexit?

Presumably too the EU countries through which such goods are conveyed en route to the UK, and indeed from which some of these goods originate in the first place, have no checks whatsoever in place - And would that apply say to meat from Poland, an EU country, destined for countries other than the UK?
Spot checks are conducted EU-wide, so pre-Brexit there was no difference between a consignment heading from say Spain to Lithuania and one heading to the UK. Retailers knew that if the health authorities in, say France, decided to conduct a random inspection and found issues they would lose their health certification and be unable to sell anywhere in the EU as a result. So there was no need for dedicated infrastructure to check every inbound consignment - we basically benefited from random spot checks conducted across all 28 member countries.

Now that the UK is a third-country, there is zero reason for EU health authorities to make any checks on consignments destined for the UK as we have chosen to go it alone as far as standards and checks are concerned. And since we have announced that we aren't conducting any checks on imports there is zero incentive for those retailers to spend the extra pennies that would be required to meet EU standards. The same, by the way, goes for safety standards and enforcement of intellectual property rights. We are, in a word, a smuggler's dream destination.

At the same time, UK exporters to the EU are at a disadvantage as we still need to meet their standards and, more importantly, have to prove compliance as our government has refused to commit to standards alignment. This means that manufacturers need to prove compliance with both UKCA and CE standards.
 

Falcon1200

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Now that the UK is a third-country, there is zero reason for EU health authorities to make any checks on consignments destined for the UK as we have chosen to go it alone as far as standards and checks are concerned.

Zero reason? Apart from ensuring that EU members do not originate and facilitate transport of sub-standard goods to other countries.
 

edwin_m

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Zero reason? Apart from ensuring that EU members do not originate and facilitate transport of sub-standard goods to other countries.
Why should they care about items being shipped outside? And if they did, Brexiters would be up in arms about the EU interfering with British trade.
 

Annetts key

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What is it about keeping the £ pound that gets people excited? I would have thought the recent wild currency fluctuations would have been enough to show that not many outside of the U.K. hold our currency up as being anything special.

And to the young plus others who don’t mind paying electronically, money is fast becoming just a number. As just a number, it does not really matter when making a transaction what the currency is called, as long as you understand if you can afford the goods or services…

Personally, I don’t much care if we do move to using the Euro.
 

AlterEgo

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What is it about keeping the £ pound that gets people excited? I would have thought the recent wild currency fluctuations would have been enough to show that not many outside of the U.K. hold our currency up as being anything special.
The Euro isn't better.

Having the pound means the UK gets to control its own fiscal policy through economic sovereignty.

And to the young plus others who don’t mind paying electronically, money is fast becoming just a number. As just a number, it does not really matter when making a transaction what the currency is called, as long as you understand if you can afford the goods or services…
I'm in the United States right now and I can tell you that the currency you use is really important. Things are comparatively very expensive here because, in part, of the strong dollar.
 

najaB

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What is it about keeping the £ pound that gets people excited?
Largely it's symbolic.
Having the pound means the UK gets to control its own fiscal policy through economic sovereignty.
Do we really though? With globalised markets being what they are we can't really move that far out of lockstep with what other countries are doing or capital will flee our shores.
 

Annetts key

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The Euro isn't better.
Why, has the Euro had just a big drop in recent years as the £ pound sterling?

Having the pound means the UK gets to control its own fiscal policy through economic sovereignty.
Ahh, you mean the deluded illusion of control rather than actual real control. As najaB says…
Do we really though? With globalised markets being what they are we can't really move that far out of lockstep with what other countries are doing or capital will flee our shores.
It’s the market and currency traders that have the most control, not the Bank of England or the Government. See also Black Wednesday.

I'm in the United States right now and I can tell you that the currency you use is really important. Things are comparatively very expensive here because, in part, of the strong dollar.
You can either call it a strong U.S. Dollar or call it a weak £ pound sterling. If we were in the Euro, it’s very possible that the Euro would be even stronger than it currently is, and hence the exchange rate to the US Dollar would be much better.

Or are you suggesting that the U.K. switches to using the U.S. Dollar?

Either way, the current situation is that the £ pound sterling is very weak.
 

DoubleLemon

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Well done! It’s almost like the key difference is whether the removal of the right is justified or not by the upsides or downsides that result, not the sheer principle of it.
So there is no justified reason to remove my FOM rights then.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The Tory government campaigned to stay in the EU. The 2019 election brought in a lot of Brexiteer MPs. The people spoke.
Then you will welcome an election to confirm your assertion still is the "will of the people"
 

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