I imagine it would come as a surprise to a great many in various European nations to discover that their nationality no longer existed... Then again it came as quite a surprise to me to discover that apparently we're no longer part of Europe either? Did we get towed out to the mid-Atlantic without me noticing?
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Brexit matters
- Thread starter Xenophon PCDGS
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RailUK Forums
Quite so. And different welfare / health systems (ours being based on entitlement whereas European tends to be on pseudo insurance lines). Of course moving ours to a European system was just politically impossible on all sides. This, our language and our laissez-faire attitude towards employment, residency and immigrants (odd that may seem!) meant that the UK was a very desirable place to come.
You may think so, but a lot of your fellow citizens don't.... (Culturally rather than strictly geographically of course. Bit like Israelis being Asian.)
nlogax
Established Member
A cultural insularity I will never understand.
What about them? Their economic situation, and their history, is completely different to ours. They are not going to throw in their lot with the British for historical reasons, so they have to follow their own course.
johncrossley
Established Member
If you go down that route then you are talking about English exceptionalism, rather than arguing that the rest of Europe isn't attractive to potential migrants.
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Are the Irish European?
WelshBluebird
Established Member
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I'd have thought given the nations that make up our country us Brits would be fairly used to the concept of having multiple identities in that regard. I'm British yes, but I'm also Welsh. Just as someone can be French and also European (or in my case, Welsh, British and European).
That was the other point I was going to make earlier but forgot; why is freedom of movement ok in France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands etc - but not the UK?
Places like the Netherlands and perhaps Germany are even more densely populated than the UK but while there are anti-immigrationists there, they appear to be consigned to the fringes rather than (as in the UK) part of mainstream politics.
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Yes, quite. If there's one thing that annoys me it's the geographically illiterate claiming that the UK is not part of Europe. What are we part of then? Africa? Asia? North America? South America? Oceania? Antarctica?
And are Albania, Serbia, Montenegro and Kosovo also not part of Europe? Or, taking a different tack, Manhattan and Newfoundland not part of North America? I don't think anyone, even Brexiters, will claim that.
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I haven't said that the rest of Europe isn't attractive to potential migrants. I do believe that, for specific reasons at the time, that the UK was particularly attractive and open. The British are exceptional, good and bad, bound up in our particular history - can't get away from it; don't want to get away from it.
Geographically the Irish are European. My view is that they are culturally very bound up with Britain, but for historical reasons do not want to associate too much with the British. Are they culturally similar to France or Germany or Italy? - no I don't think so - but for economic/ historical reasons are a bit closer to European countries than the UK is.
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Why do the British think differently to the French or the Germans - because we're British of course. Doh!That was the other point I was going to make earlier but forgot; why is freedom of movement ok in France, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands etc - but not the UK?
Places like the Netherlands and perhaps Germany are even more densely populated than the UK but while there are anti-immigrationists there, they appear to be consigned to the fringes rather than (as in the UK) part of mainstream politics.
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Yes, quite. If there's one thing that annoys me it's the geographically illiterate claiming that the UK is not part of Europe. What are we part of then. Africa? Asia? North America? South America? Oceania? Antarctica?
And are Albania, Serbia, Montenegro and Kosovo also not part of Europe? I always thought they were; I must have had a very poor geography teacher who told me that.
No one is claiming Britain is not geographically part of Europe.
The same could be said when comparing French and German culture, presumably.
There is absolutely no excuse for exceptionalism. It gives the UK as a country a bad name. What is different about us? We're an island? So are Ireland, Iceland and Malta.
People often say "the Europeans", to distinguish "them" from "us". Complete insular nonsense.
berneyarms
Established Member
Nothing bizarre about it.
It’s a combination of the benefits that Ireland gets from EU membership and a desire to shake off the history of UK influence.
The Irish economy has benefitted massively from EU membership, and you can see the tangible benefits all around the country in the form of improved infrastructure.
Let’s be honest, the UK has not managed to endear itself to Ireland over the years, through instigating partition of the island, and various miscarriages of justice, UK State involvement in terrorist murders or the likes of Bloody Sunday and subsequent cover-ups, and numerous UK government political gaffes and lies which over the years caused a lot of distrust.
The EU on the other hand have pretty much consistently supported Ireland.
Don’t get me wrong, most people here want good relations with the UK, but when you have a situation where the UK government is backtracking on international agreements and changing its tack on an almost weekly basis, is it any wonder that the Irish government have said that Ireland/UK relations are at their lowest point in decades.
One of the more bizarre notions espoused by right wing politicians in the UK is that Ireland should be closer aligned to the UK than Europe. History tells us that will only end up in tears for us, as indeed NI unionists keep finding out. At the end of the day Northern Ireland and Ireland are irritations to many English politicians, especially the right wing.
And yes most Irish people are happy to view themselves as European. Why wouldn’t we?
We certainly do have cultural links with Europe through our Celtic history and with Irish monks establishing many monasteries on the continent.
nlogax
Established Member
'don't want to get away from it'? Please explain?
Of course there is, otherwise the whole world will be the same. It does not give the UK as a country a bad name - it makes us stand out as a proud nation. We do not have to do things the way our neighbours do them (owing to our island status our histories are very different) - we can trade with them, visit them etc (and vice versa) but there is no need to always copy them or treat them or their ways as better than us or pretend they are the same as us.
Quite.
I think that the comment on the current situation regarding International Agreements is a result of the UK being trapped into either giving up sovereignty over Northern Ireland or not leaving the Customs Union, which was pretty much bound to cause friction. If anyone thought that this agreement was going be workable they must have been in cuckoo land.
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It is our history, our culture. Why would we want to?
nlogax
Established Member
Who is suggesting you would 'get away from it'? It's possible to be British and European at the same time. Like it or not we are utterly interlinked with the rest of Europe in every facet of our modern lives and through the entirety of our history as a nation. You cannot avoid it.
That really is not good. Time for the UK government to drop this nonsense.
The ironic thing is that the UK also has many similar cultural links with continental western Europe. Why do people want to deny that?
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So is France the same as Germany? Bulgaria the same as the Netherlands? Of course not. It's quite possible to have national identity without insularism. 27 other European nations somehow manage it.
Hmmm. sucking up to "W" in the 2003 Iraq war, more so than other western nations? Not our finest moment, it was around then when I started to become a bit embarrassed of the UK's record.
But surely the histories of the UK and France are more intertwined than those of say, Portugal and Romania? Is our royal family not related to that of many other European nations? Did other European nations not explore the world, and (rightly or wrongly) colonise parts of it, in previous centuries in a similar way to the UK (France, Spain and Portugal spring to mind)? I'm sorry but I find very few reasons why the UK should have to see itself as more different than any of the other European nations are to each other.
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johncrossley
Established Member
Most of the rest want to be part of the EU, are already part of the single market or are too small to be in the EU.
You speak for yourself. I was born well before the UK entered the EEC, and have always lived in Europe. Did you not take geography at school? Maybe 'European' is an attitude, or even just a convenient lable in your mind.
No, I wasn't suggesting that at all. I was specifically comparing the UK to EU countries, to make a counter point to the argument that the UK seeing itself as different to EU countries is the only way to carve out a national identity. That is patently false - in that, from what I can make out, each EU country has its own distinctive national identity.
Countries besides the UK and EU countries were not part of this discussion, and no point is being made about them.
berneyarms
Established Member
I think most governments will view themselves as being bound by international agreements that they make, and are prepared to try and come up with solutions if things don’t work.
But just remember, the UK government negotiated this deal and Boris Johnson proclaimed that it was “oven ready”. If you’re telling me that the UK government didn’t view it as “the deal” to deliver Brexit, and that it would have to be renegotiated, then how do you expect other governments to work with that? The basis of trust is seriously diminished in that kind of situation.
We had a NI Secretary who blindly refused to admit that the deal put a customs border down the Irish Sea, and who even recently proclaimed that relations were good with the Irish government, despite the Taoiseach and Irish foreign minister saying that they were at their lowest point in decades.
The current PM hasn’t endeared himself to anyone on the island of Ireland, be they unionist or nationalist in NI, or in the Republic of Ireland. He’s frankly seen as a liar who couldn’t give two hoots about Ireland, and history should tell people that such an approach is never a good strategy.
The UK really needs a leader who can re-establish international relationships on the basis of mutual respect and trust, and who recognises the need to put a significant effort into resolving the current political impasse in Northern Ireland so that we can all move on.
johncrossley
Established Member
Out of all the non-EU/EEA/Schengen countries in Europe, excluding microstates, only Armenia, Belarus, Russia and the UK aren't either applicants, candidates or negotiating candidates for EU membership.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_European_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_European_Union
| State | Status | Last step | Next step |
|---|---|---|---|
Montenegro | Candidate negotiating | Accession negotiations with Montenegro were opened in June 2012. All 33 applicable negotiating chapters have been opened, of which 3 have been provisionally closed.[44] | Every chapter must be closed to conclude the negotiations and join the European Union. |
Serbia | Candidate negotiating | Accession negotiations with Serbia were opened in January 2014. Out of 34 applicable negotiating chapters, 18 have been opened, of which 2 have been provisionally closed.[45] | Every chapter must be closed to conclude the negotiations and join the European Union. |
Albania | Candidate negotiating | The Council decided in March 2020 to open accession negotiations with Albania,[46] but Bulgaria has been blocking the official start of the negotiations due to pending bilateral issues with North Macedonia.[47] After unlocking, the start of negotiations was scheduled for July 19, 2022.[17] | Every chapter must be closed to conclude the negotiations and join the European Union. |
North Macedonia | Candidate negotiating | The Council decided in March 2020 to open accession negotiations with North Macedonia,[48] but Bulgaria has been blocking the official start of the negotiations due to pending bilateral issues with the country.[47] After unlocking, the start of negotiations was scheduled for July 19, 2022.[17] | Every chapter must be closed to conclude the negotiations and join the European Union. |
Turkey | Candidate negotiating (effectively frozen) | Accession negotiations with Turkey were opened in October 2005. Out of 33 applicable negotiating chapters, 16 have been opened, of which 1 has been provisionally closed.[49] | Turkey's accession negotiations are effectively frozen and, under the current circumstances, no further chapters can be considered for opening or closing.[49] |
Moldova | Candidate | The European Council granted candidate status to Moldova in June 2022.[43] | Further political and economic reforms are needed before the Commission can recommend starting negotiations with the country.[50] |
Ukraine | Candidate | The European Council granted candidate status to Ukraine in June 2022.[43] | Seven key areas recommended by the Commission have to be addressed to proceed further. The Commission will provide a detailed assessment of the country by the end of 2022.[50] |
Bosnia and Herzegovina | Applicant (also recognised as a potential candidate) | Bosnia and Herzegovina submitted its application for EU membership in February 2016.[51] | Further political and economic reforms are needed before the Commission can recommend granting candidate status to Bosnia and Herzegovina.[51] |
Georgia | Applicant (also recognised as a potential candidate) | Georgia submitted its application for EU membership in March 2022.[52] | Further political and economic reforms are needed before the Commission can recommend granting candidate status to Georgia.[50] |
Kosovo(independence disputed) | Potential candidate | The EU-Kosovo Stabilisation and Association Agreement (SAA) has been in force since April 2016.[53] | Prime Minister of Kosovo Albin Kurti stated that he planned to formally submit an application for membership by the end of 2022.[54] |
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The obvious answer is not leaving the Customs Union but we can't have that, can we, according to the UK Government.
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In regards to the British exceptionalism - I would say we have far more similarities to the rest of Europe than differences. I don’t understand why some think we are significantly different to the rest of Europe, to the point where some don’t consider themselves ‘European’ when they clearly are.
Of course, we have a lot of uniqueness, some of which we can be proud of (not all of it, of course) but every other European country also has a uniqueness. Countries haven’t lost that by being part of the EU.
Of course, we have a lot of uniqueness, some of which we can be proud of (not all of it, of course) but every other European country also has a uniqueness. Countries haven’t lost that by being part of the EU.
The Irish, and their government, being unblemished in their actions too? I think not. But lets not go down that rabbit hole, suffice to say that there is still unfinished business (on both sides). Nothing is simple in that tangle.
Is anybody denying it? However it doesn't need the UK to be in an ever closer union to recognise our cultural links. We have cultural links with India, but are not in a political union with them. Nor does that necessarily mean that we have to have similar systems or cultures.
Yes. But the word being used was 'exceptionalism' not insularism. It is quite possible to be exceptional without being insular. But if you are in a Union which is committed to harmonisation then that surely means the exceptional being ironed out?
Any country can make mistakes - and the Premier paid for that. However, no reason to be embarrassed if you stick with your allies.
But it is all to do with harmonisation ('Europeanisation') of systems, of politics, of cultures. I find very few reasons why we would want to be in a system that is trying to impose such things on us ( or in the case of FoM screwing us if we don't).
The issue was, in a nutshell, the UK Government wanted to be out of the Customs Union and retain sovereignity of Northern Ireland as part of the UK, and the Irish Government wanted no hard border on the island of Ireland. The UK Government had one window of opportunity to get out of the Customs Union, and it wanted to take advantage of that over the ramifications of the Irish situation. Unless they were going to allow Ireland to prevent the UK departure from the Customs Union, what else could they do? Of course the current PM hasn't endeared himself to anyone on the island of Ireland, but then few there wanted the UK to leave the EU. A bit of a rock and a hard place I would say.
There is no point in leaving the EU without leaving the Customs Union and all the control that goes with that. See my post #4146 as to why I think that was particularly important. (Not saying I agree with it, but why I think it is what it is)
berneyarms
Established Member
I’m intrigued as to what you’re referring to here?
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Whether you like it or not, Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and just riding roughshod over the politics there, which is effectively what you’re saying happened, is effectively saying that the UK Government couldn’t care less about the effect that had on that part of their own country, despite the long history of strife there.
You couldn’t make this up, frankly.
NI will never be straightforward, and is a special case, and frankly it needs to be given the proper attention that it deserves by the UK government to come up with workable inclusive solutions.
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There is a long and bitter history with atrocities and treachery (perceived or real) on both sides.
Politics is politics. NI was not going to be allowed to prevent the UK from leaving the EU & Customs Union. Maybe you feel that the Irish situation should have taken precedence, but I think that this would be to misread the resolve of the UK Government at that time. As you quite rightly say, NI is never straightforward and there was no chance of missing the opportunity to leave the EU/Customs Union by spending the next 20 years talking about the Irish question (which has plagued these Isles for a very long time).
Now of course you could entirely blame the UK Government for this situation, or perhaps look to the reasons why the UK wanted to leave and how that had been caused, and why those issues weren't addressed rather than risk this armageddon? Politics/missed opportunities/disbelief/cussedness - take your pick.
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VauxhallandI
Established Member
I'm afraid Joe Bloggs on the street thinks that the British are in someway superior to everyone else.
God knows why, the people that hold that view the most re probably the ones contributing to society the least.
That said I'm sure Joe El Bloggs in Spain thinks the same way.
It's a concept that makes my mind boggle.
Given the history of the Irish situation, any sensible Government would not dare meddle with it. Thankfully nothing bad has happened, but the Government was playing with fire by not talking into account NI properly.
It's part of the reason, I am afraid, why I am utterly cynical and distrustful of this Government. And the "we have to respect the referendum" argument, made by many, is not enough. They could have done a soft, customs union Brexit, correctly claim they respected the referendum result, and the whole NI situation would never have arose.
But you are looking at it from the position of someone not wanting to leave the EU/Customs Union. If you can put yourself in the other shoes then you will see why things happened as they did.
This Government could have done all sorts of things, but Brexit staying in the Customs Union would have been failure in their eyes (see post #4146 for why). Their mission was never to just leave the EU in name only. It would have been an abrogation of their principles (such as they are).
As for being utterly cynical and distrustful - this is Governments all over. I have had the 'pleasure' of dealing with many of them, and living in several foreign countries, and can say that they are all immoral when it suits.
Remaining in the customs union but not the single market would not have solved the Irish Border issue, eg. see
http://web.archive.org/web/20190623...r/12/brexit-customs-union-labour-irish-border
The only real solutions to the Irish Border, if the EU (somewhat understandably) insisted on retaining all its existing rules regarding the single market etc., were
- not to do Brexit at all
- do a 'Norway' and join EFTA or something like it, keeping freedom of movement and the single market
- break the Belfast agreement, common travel area etc. and have some checks of people and/or goods on the Irish Border.
As none of those were viewed as acceptable, the problem couldn't be solved, and Theresa May was brought down. Johnson's proposal to 'fix' the issue wasn't remotely a fix either, but enough people went along with it out of weariness in order to break the logjam, in the full knowledge it would have to be looked at again almost immediately.
http://web.archive.org/web/20190623...r/12/brexit-customs-union-labour-irish-border
The only real solutions to the Irish Border, if the EU (somewhat understandably) insisted on retaining all its existing rules regarding the single market etc., were
- not to do Brexit at all
- do a 'Norway' and join EFTA or something like it, keeping freedom of movement and the single market
- break the Belfast agreement, common travel area etc. and have some checks of people and/or goods on the Irish Border.
As none of those were viewed as acceptable, the problem couldn't be solved, and Theresa May was brought down. Johnson's proposal to 'fix' the issue wasn't remotely a fix either, but enough people went along with it out of weariness in order to break the logjam, in the full knowledge it would have to be looked at again almost immediately.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
- Joined
- 14 Jan 2010
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- 5,577
By who exactly? Because we as a country certainly weren't asked about those options.