• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Brexit matters

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,837
Location
UK
You can't, unless GB railways goes out for competitive tender exactly like a franchise or concession.

As we speak even SNCF is being broken up into franchises and put out to tender.

If the Tories get back in, or Reform, I am sure that once GB Railways is established and set up to combine the infrastructure with operations, you'd likely find that at some point they'd want to get private operators back in to run the new sectors.

I know it was the Tories that looked into the state of the railways and started the ball rolling on bringing the railways under new control, but I doubt the long-term plan was to let the DfT do so forever. It's probably just easier and more lucrative to sell off the track and stations too. Imagine the potential of knocking down stations to build new ones with more retail. Perhaps even use the land to run more services like fibre and power, with private companies profiting from the rental fees etc.

Considering we can all predict that GB Railway isn't going to be throwing billions of pounds in to the railway anytime soon, or slashing fares, it won't be hard for a future Government to point out how terrible it is for a Government to run something like the railway and the whole merry go round starts over.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
17,443
Location
Isle of Man
You can't, unless GB railways goes out for competitive tender exactly like a franchise or concession.

As we speak even SNCF is being broken up into franchises and put out to tender.
I'm no fan of the EU's moves to liberalise the railway industry, it's born of the UK in the 1990s pushing the privatisation agenda and the EU running with it. Ironic that the UK are moving back away from it again now. You'd think the EU would have seen how disastrous it was in the UK and moved away from it, but hey. The Germans are getting to learn all about it with the mess that DB is in these days.

The UK already provides access to the railway network for private operators and has an independent mechanism for assessing those applications from private operators to access the network. That's all that's really needed to comply with the EU rules on railway liberalisation.

What's happening in France and Germany is that regional governments are putting the operation of local train services out to tender, they're not just automatically handing regional services to DB or SNCF or whoever. Again, that's not really any different to what is already happening in the UK: TfL have tendered the Overground and the Elizabeth Line to private sector operators, Merseyrail is tendered to a private sector operator, and all those arrangements will continue even after GBR.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,267
I'm no fan of the EU's moves to liberalise the railway industry, it's born of the UK in the 1990s pushing the privatisation agenda and the EU running with it. Ironic that the UK are moving back away from it again now. You'd think the EU would have seen how disastrous it was in the UK and moved away from it, but hey. The Germans are getting to learn all about it with the mess that DB is in these days.

The UK already provides access to the railway network for private operators and has an independent mechanism for assessing those applications from private operators to access the network. That's all that's really needed to comply with the EU rules on railway liberalisation.
That was the case until the 4th Railway Package passed, now essentially all "public service" railway contracts are to be issued based on competitive tenders.
The definition of public service will cover virtually all GBR services as almost all of them are in receipt of public subsidies.
 

alex397

Established Member
Joined
6 Oct 2017
Messages
2,025
Location
UK
I’m not sure the elite or UK media would allow any politician to make us rejoin the EU. Many of our politicians seem more than happy to sit on the fence, or say vague meaningless phrases.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,589
Location
Scotland
I’m not sure the elite or UK media would allow any politician to make us rejoin the EU.
"The media" doesn't exist as a person. UK media sources pretty much reflect the spread of opinion in UK society. I asked Gemini to summarise the positions of the major outlets, here was the response:
The editorial stances of the major mainstream UK media sources regarding the UK re-joining the European Union fall along a clear ideological spectrum. Because newspapers rarely publish explicit, single-sentence declarations stating a fixed corporate policy on "Rejoin," their positions are assessed through their editorial columns, the volume and framing of their Brexit-impact reporting, and their historical alignments.

Strong Pro-Rejoining

These outlets consistently highlight the economic and social costs of Brexit and view full re-accession (or immediate, aggressive steps toward it) as the optimal path forward for the UK.
  • The Guardian / The Observer: The editorial heartland of the pro-EU movement. Their commentary routinely characterizes Brexit as a historic mistake, gives significant platform to rejoin campaigns, and advocates for a structural return to the European fold.
  • The Independent: Operates with a distinct editorial bias toward reversing Brexit. It frequently runs dedicated campaigns tracking the negative impacts of leaving the EU and explicitly supports closer integration up to and including rejoining.

Soft Pro-Rejoining / Maximum Realignment

These publications are highly critical of Brexit and favor maximum integration, but their editorial focus is heavily weighted toward economic pragmatism rather than political idealism. They often advocate for joining the Single Market or a Customs Union first, viewing full re-entry as a long-term goal dependent on EU terms.
  • The Financial Times: Focuses strictly on economic functionality, trade friction, and business impacts. Editorially, the FT consistently favors reversing trade barriers and aligns with the idea that the UK is economically stronger inside the EU, though it remains highly realistic and analytical about the immense institutional and political hurdles Brussels would impose on a returning UK.
  • The Economist: Shares a similar analytical perspective to the FT. It treats Brexit as a profound act of economic self-harm and strongly favors close integration, though its columns frequently emphasize the complex "geometry" of how a future relationship might look.
  • The Daily Mirror: Aligns largely with center-left, pro-European sentiment, but tempers its stance slightly to remain sensitive to elements of its traditional working-class readership who voted to leave in 2016. It strongly supports rebuilding deep ties with Europe but stops short of aggressive, front-page campaigning for an immediate referendum.

Neutral / Case-by-Case Pragmatism

These sources either operate under strict regulatory frameworks or take a shifting, transactional approach to UK-EU relations.
  • BBC News / Sky News: Bound by strict statutory impartiality guidelines. They do not take an editorial stance on whether the UK should rejoin. Instead, their coverage focuses on reporting public opinion polling, economic data, and the political strategy of the major parties neutrally.
  • The Times / The Sunday Times: Nominally center-right and editorially nuanced. While it features prominent Eurosceptic columnists, its editorial line has evolved to favor a pragmatic, business-friendly "reset" with Brussels, preferring to critique specific regulations or agreements on their merits rather than endorsing a blanket "Rejoin" or "Never Re-join" ideology.

Strong Anti-Rejoining / "Never Re-join"

These outlets were the architectural backbone of the Leave campaign in 2016. They view any attempt to rejoin the EU, the Single Market, or a Customs Union as a betrayal of national sovereignty and a reversal of democratic mandates.
  • The Daily Telegraph / The Sunday Telegraph: The intellectual home of British Euroscepticism. Editorially, it strongly resists any regulatory alignment with Brussels, views the current UK-EU "reset" talks with deep suspicion, and frames any move toward rejoining as a capitulation.
  • The Daily Mail / The Mail on Sunday: Fiercely nationalistic and anti-rejoin. It consistently campaigns against any perceived dilution of Brexit, frequently criticizing pro-rejoin politicians, activists, and legal frameworks.
  • The Sun: Takes a populist, highly adversarial stance against the EU. It actively ridicules rejoin campaigns and frames the issue as an attempt by political elites to overturn the will of the British public.
  • The Daily Express: Historically the most intensely anti-EU mainstream publication. Its editorial line remains aggressively committed to defending Brexit at all costs, frequently warning of "plots" to drag the UK back into the bloc.

Confidence and Source Assessment

  • Confidence Level: High (90-95%)
  • Reasoning: This categorization is based on an inference drawn from a comprehensive track record of editorial columns, front-page framing, and historical alignments dating from the 2016 referendum through to current commentary on the UK-EU relations. Because media outlets operate via ongoing commentary rather than static policy manifestos, these groupings reflect their established ideological positioning rather than a singular official directive.
So the truth of any statement that starts with "The media will..." or "The media won't..." really depends on who you read.

Many of our politicians seem more than happy to sit on the fence, or say vague meaningless phrases.
With it still being such a divisive topic is that any surprise? Any strong public statement either way automatically loses you the support of a significant proportion of the populace. This is doubly so because the older generations tend to skew pro-Brexit but also tend to have a higher propensity to vote, which is balanced by the younger generations skewing pro-EU but also being less likely to vote.
 

oldman

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
1,340
The media" doesn't exist as a person. UK media sources pretty much reflect the spread of opinion in UK society
Your analysis does not allow for circulation. I don't know what newspaper circulations (including online reach [sic]) are like nowadays but historically the Telegraph/Mail/Express/Sun sold far more than the Guardian/Independent/Mirror/Record.
 

Mrwerdna1

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2018
Messages
148
Location
The Continent
That was the case until the 4th Railway Package passed, now essentially all "public service" railway contracts are to be issued based on competitive tenders.
The definition of public service will cover virtually all GBR services as almost all of them are in receipt of public subsidies.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but GBR in its overall structure could still exist, no? However, it may not be able to directly operate the contracts in-house, unless GBR rail (let's just say, the arm's long publicly owned operator), was awarded the competitively tendered contracts or directly awarded the contracts, in accordance with EU law (see below).

To put it differently, GBR, as proposed by the conservatives (with a few tweaks), would largely comply with the 4th Railway Package, whilst the nationalised GBR model (by Labour) may not directly, I think.

Technically, the EU requires separation of track and train (which is stupid and doesn't really work, see Germany, Denmark or Sweden) - indeed integration, regardless of whether public or private is almost always better (see Switzerland, Austria or Japan). But setting this aside, I think GBR actually offers an interesting model that EU/EFTA states could adopt over time, which is to say, basically get around the separation requirement by keeping GBR operations and GBR rail legally separate, but strengthen their cooperation as part of an integrated publicly owned organisation. This organisation, in terms of its public philosophy, would operate as a single entity and brand in the eyes of the public, politicians and employees. This is a bit like ÖBB or SBB today, arguably Europe's best rail operators, except that they operate their trains in-house. Or like the private regional JR companies in Japan, except that again they operate everything in-house. GBR would in theory have to competitively tender their contracts. Even so, a big improvement over the existing franchising structure.

However, here Andy Burnham coming in is actually quite interesting, because unlike the solid left of the Labour party, he's actually placed great emphasis on "public control", rather than public ownership necessarily. Thus, I predict that even if he were soon to be removed and replaced, we might see the Labour Party and soft left pivot to this, if and when EU accession talks become more tangible again.

There is also the additional nuance that Austria, which as a full EU member state is bound by the 4th railway package, whilst allowing for open access operators on certain routes, has not put out national ÖBB services to competitive tender, instead directly awarding a single nationally integrated rail contract to ÖBB, arguing it is part of an integrated national network (like SBB in Switzerland) and that ÖBB are best equipped to operate it. So this is also a matter of political will and priority, not just following the letter of the law.

Last but not least, whilst generally speaking the UK cannot get any exemptions regarding free movement of goods, services, capital and people, they could perhaps get an exemption regarding the exact implementation of some specific parts of the 4th railway package. This is a bargaining process after all and if the UK can credibly demonstrate that their network is open to private operators on a regional level (in devolved authorities, i.e. in London, Manchester and Birmingham) and national level too in terms of open access operators, then the EU does not really have much grounds upon which to reject that, given the case of Austria or even Denmark.

However, as it stands, I believe the case of Austria demonstrates that GBR legislation could be adapted in such a way that GBR would directly award contracts on a national level to regional GBR operators, whilst metro-area devolved authorities (London, Manchester, Birmingham, Tyne and Wear) would put their local services out for competitive tender and GBR would regulate / approve open access operator requests for long-distance services.

Or something like that, in any case
:D

:D
 
Last edited:

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,210
Location
UK
However, here Andy Burnham coming in is actually quite interesting, because unlike the solid left of the Labour party, he's actually placed great emphasis on "public control", rather than public ownership necessarily.
That does, however, still mean that there is money that is leaking out of the system to shareholders, whilst the state takes most of the risk.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,589
Location
Scotland
Your analysis does not allow for circulation. I don't know what newspaper circulations (including online reach [sic]) are like nowadays but historically the Telegraph/Mail/Express/Sun sold far more than the Guardian/Independent/Mirror/Record.
Does that change the point that there is no such singular entity as "the media" where opinions on Brexit (or any other matter) is concerned?
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,590
Location
Nottingham
Does that change the point that there is no such singular entity as "the media" where opinions on Brexit (or any other matter) is concerned?
There is no such singular entity but more people read right-wing than left-wing newspapers, and I'd argue that the left-wing ones are more critical of their "own" side. There are also right-wing broadcast TV channels (TalkTV and GB News) but no left-wing ones, and social media algorithms (such as X under Musk) that may steer people towards right-wing content even if they don't actively go looking for it.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,181
Location
LBK
Your analysis does not allow for circulation. I don't know what newspaper circulations (including online reach [sic]) are like nowadays but historically the Telegraph/Mail/Express/Sun sold far more than the Guardian/Independent/Mirror/Record.
Online reach is now pretty equal, with an even spread over right and left leaning outlets. The Guardian is the largest for reach, which is not surprising to me. The Mirror and Independent come in third and fourth.

 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
4,826
There is no such singular entity but more people read right-wing than left-wing newspapers, and I'd argue that the left-wing ones are more critical of their "own" side. There are also right-wing broadcast TV channels (TalkTV and GB News) but no left-wing ones, and social media algorithms (such as X under Musk) that may steer people towards right-wing content even if they don't actively go looking for it.
Not a dedicated channel, but Channel 4 news definitely leans to the left. Other left media outlets go for other methods like Novara on Youtube.
The social media algorithms are trying to drive engagement, something that makes you respond. I see plenty of leftwing posts on controversial topics coming up in my feed.
Online reach is now pretty equal, with an even spread over right and left leaning outlets. The Guardian is the largest for reach, which is not surprising to me. The Mirror and Independent come in third and fourth.
I wonder how much higher the Telegraph or Times would be without their paywalls.
 

Annetts key

Established Member
Joined
13 Feb 2021
Messages
3,788
Location
West is best
Your analysis does not allow for circulation. I don't know what newspaper circulations (including online reach [sic]) are like nowadays but historically the Telegraph/Mail/Express/Sun sold far more than the Guardian/Independent/Mirror/Record.
Circulation of the vast majority of newspapers continues to decline. They are becoming less and less relevant.

Here's some circulation figures:

National newspaper circulations in December 2025​


PublicationDecember
ABC average
circulation
Month-
on-month
% change
Year-
on-year
% change
1City AM (free)68,531−0.11.0
2Daily Express102,884−1.8−19.5
3Daily Mail619,4800.2−8.0
4Daily Mirror 166,472−1.9−19.1
5Daily Record37,145−2.6−17.8
6Daily Star91,701−2.5−19.7
7Daily Star on Sunday49,577−2.7−19.0
8FT101,940−1.3−6.5
9Mail on Sunday517,598−2.0−7.7
10Metro952,3320.20.0
11Sunday Express87,293−3.6−22.5
12Sunday Mail33,466−3.2−20.4
13Sunday Mirror116,664−3.3−22.7
14Sunday People35,649−2.6−25.2
15Sunday Post25,651−3.7−18.2
16The i Paper 109,815−0.9−10.7

Table: Press GazetteSource: ABC

Source

As more of the older generation die off or decide to no longer buy a newspaper (maybe they retire / leave work), many of these circulation numbers will continue to decline.

Most of the younger generation don't buy a newspaper.

As others have said, the more relevant question will be social media and web sites, plus the likes of TalkTV and GB News.
 

AlterEgo

Verified Rep - Wingin' It! Paul Lucas
Joined
30 Dec 2008
Messages
29,181
Location
LBK
I wonder how much higher the Telegraph or Times would be without their paywalls.
Hard to say. I have a Telegraph subscription because in my view it's the highest quality of the news websites; I don’t read it to agree with it but rather for a lot of foreign policy news which otherwise goes under the radar. Plus it articulates conservative viewpoints more cohesively which I appreciate.

I think there must be a fair few people who have subscriptions to the traditional broadsheets based on similar motivations, but I can't be sure!
 

The Ham

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
12,021
Hard to say. I have a Telegraph subscription because in my view it's the highest quality of the news websites; I don’t read it to agree with it but rather for a lot of foreign policy news which otherwise goes under the radar. Plus it articulates conservative viewpoints more cohesively which I appreciate.

I think there must be a fair few people who have subscriptions to the traditional broadsheets based on similar motivations, but I can't be sure!

Although, there's a fair few rage bait articles, where they talk about things like:

Large number of something which when you look at the overall number works out to be tiny - for example £x million in speeding fines, but when you work out the numbers is like 3 a day on the length of 50 miles of a major motorway.

This cyclist has caused a death of someone, only it's very often someone in their 80's or 90's and so any fall could be fatal to them and they talk about that case several times (at different key events in the process) so it feels like it's a bigger issue.


Although, to be fair, they did have an interesting article recently which argued that cyclists are right wing (although potentially should be supported by those who are right wing), as they were getting ahead (especially in London) through hard work especially given that those who typically call for more regulation (red tape) of those who are getting ahead through hard work are left leaning - so those who are sat in their cars calling for cyclists to have registration plates, have to observe the speed limits, etc are actually left leaning.
 

styles

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
4,616
Location
Gwynedd
Although, to be fair, they did have an interesting article recently which argued that cyclists are right wing (although potentially should be supported by those who are right wing), as they were getting ahead (especially in London) through hard work especially given that those who typically call for more regulation (red tape) of those who are getting ahead through hard work are left leaning - so those who are sat in their cars calling for cyclists to have registration plates, have to observe the speed limits, etc are actually left leaning.
I'm not so sure about this. I probably do think that cycling for commuting is potentially more of a middle-class trait, particularly given a lot of the bikes are cycle-to-work scheme bikes not usually offered in very low-paid environments (and can't be provided to minimum wage workers due to legislation), but more white collar jobs. But equally there's a very large number of lower-income workers, students, etc who get around on £50 second-hand bikes. I tend to find both groups are quite liberal, and in the London example, the population generally votes more 'left wing'. In fact, it was the City of London Corporation, mainly run by people working in financial services, who were proposing 15mph speed limits in the Square Mile to make it more cycle-friendly and pedestrian-friendly (denied by Grant Shapps when he was transport secretary). It was taxi drivers, motoring lobbyists, and anti-Khan campaigners who were most vocal against it, and I believe are most-vocal today about having number plates on bicycles.

I do however imagine that cycling does feed into a success cycle though. People who cycle for commuting are getting up to say an hour a day of moderate exercise, which is going to awaken the senses for when they get to the office, keep them in shape, fend off illnesses, etc. And of course it's the second-cheapest way of getting around a city like London (the cheapest being walking), which gives you more money to save towards that house deposit or that holiday or hobby. London is a pretty extreme example I appreciate, but the idea of driving to work and back in a car in London, to me, is wild. I can't imagine any worse way of commuting. When I stayed in London I cycled to work, about 25 minutes each way on Santander cycles. It was cheaper than any public transport, and quicker. Yeah the Central Line on an 8am commute would be pretty bad but if I planned on taking the Tube to work I'd go in for 7am for this reason.
 

Mrwerdna1

Member
Joined
18 Jul 2018
Messages
148
Location
The Continent
That does, however, still mean that there is money that is leaking out of the system to shareholders, whilst the state takes most of the risk.
Indeed and it's worth pointing out that the EU is not perfect, far from it. In fact, the 4th railway package is a good illustration of how Brussels for decades now has been pushing some of the same neoliberal reforms UK governments have implemented since Thatcher. This semi-privatisation, specifically in the railway sector is often in direct opposition to public opinion, though in some cases the public do favour it to a degree (see open access high speed rail competition in Italy and Spain).

That said, it's also always a matter of weighing the pros and cons. Whatever one's objections to the EU, it's hard to oppose membership purely on the grounds that it makes direct state ownership and operation of the railways and other industries more difficult (albeit not impossible, as the case of Austria demonstrates).

This is a tangential point but I strongly believe that the UK missed a trick when it didn't manage to secure a similar relationship to the EU that Switzerland or Norway have, after Brexit. I think both the Westminster system and toxic media culture ensured that both sides got strongly entrenched in their respective camp (i.e. let's have another vote to rejoin already now vs. Brexit means a hard Brexit). No middle ground... how typically Westminster.

I do think to leave was a grave mistake, at the time and now, but I also think there was room for some compromise, which got lost among all the shouting.

To be more specific, Switzerland is well integrated into the EU single market and Schengen area and in many ways operates like just another member state of the EU. The same is true for Norway (and Iceland too for that matter). Yet they still retain some degree of autonomy in specific sectors that please both the right wing and left wing in the country. In the case of transport policy, for instance, the Swiss government is required to follow the same technical specifications of harmonised European standards set out in the EU package. Those also make complete sense, in my view. In theory this helps to create a more harmonised environment in which particularly cross-border operations are benefitted. In the UK too this would make sense. One could imagine Eurostar or some other open access operator, at some date waaaay in the future, running through services to Birmingham, Manchester or even Scotland, for instance.

But as they are not a member of the EU, Switzerland have not been obligated to change their institutional setup which mostly favours direct public ownership of the railways (either by the federal state i.e. SBB, the cantons i.e. SOB, RhB or BLS, or municipalities i.e. local trams and the Lausanne metro). Again, the EU doesn't make large-scale public ownership impossible, the case of Austria demonstrates this, it just makes it more difficult without adequate political will.

Ironically, it is Switzerland who has done way more to greatly integrate European transport and build the necessary infrastructure upgrades right up to the border than neighbouring EU member states Germany, France and Italy, who have all dragged their feet.
 
Last edited:

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,589
Location
Scotland
This is a tangential point but I strongly believe that the UK missed a trick when it didn't manage to secure a similar relationship to the EU that Switzerland or Norway have, after Brexit.
You mean as the Leave campaign explicitly promised would happen?
 

JonasB

Member
Joined
27 Dec 2016
Messages
1,123
Location
Sweden
If I was the EU I would insist on at least three referenda across several years or, in a single referendum, a supermajority in favour of rejoining.

As a EU citizen, I agree. Something like that would be a start. It would be madness to actually spend time on membership negogiations with the UK, only to have Reform win the next election.

Do I want the UK back as member? Yes, eventually. But not at the moment.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,589
Location
Scotland
Is that because we might be a net receiving member and not a net contributing one if our economy is so trashed?
Our economy isn't that trashed. As noted above, the problem is that we're one General Election away from a Reform government. Why would the EU want to start negotiations with us knowing that?
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
2,175
On the 10th anniversary of the UK becoming a post-truth nation, I see some of the fundamentalists of the Brexit cult are still not happy. The Express still seems to think it has not gone far enough (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgj3z76z78o):



What do they want?

Holidaymakers visiting the UK from the EU needing a full visa, and being banned from the e-gates?
And holidaymakers (and business travellers) visiting the EU from the UK needing a full visa, and being banned from the e-gates in EU countries?
 

Top