Brexit matters

[weeklycommuter]

Sort of, Starmer has (finally) accepted the results of the 2016 vote and the 2019 election. He probably still wants the country to rejoin the EU but as Sir Robert Peel put it Starmer has accepted "a final and irrevocable settlement of a great constitutional question".

Burnham on the other hand seems to have u turned then u turned again then u turned again. He wanted to remain, then he said he would back leave in a second vote, then he suggested we should rejoin and now he is saying there may be a case in the long term.

They are making a hash of this. There is no need for the UK to re-join the European Union. All they have to do is make the UK part of the European Single Market outside the European Union with a deal like those of Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. The reason for doing this is that the UK economy is stagnant and will remain so as long as the UK is outside the European Single Market.

Unless the UK has a trade deal that puts the UK in the European Single Market there will be no economic recovery so there will never be any money for anything. I dismiss the claims by some Leave supporters that they would accept being poorer if that is the result of having nothing to do with other European countries. I note many pensioners complaining about the Winter Fuel Payment, the triple lock and anything else being taken away so they will clearly not accept being poorer. Some may believe that having nothing to do with the rest of Europe will lead to the UK being a land of milk and honey but that is what happens when certain politicians propagate fantasies.

Ruling out re-joining the European Union as a red line is understandable and sensible but ruling out being part of the European Single Market is a recipe for economic and political failure and defeat.

 

[thenorthern]

They are making a hash of this. There is no need for the UK to re-join the European Union. All they have to do is make the UK part of the European Single Market outside the European Union with a deal like those of Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. The reason for doing this is that the UK economy is stagnant and will remain so as long as the UK is outside the European Single Market.

Unless the UK has a trade deal that puts the UK in the European Single Market there will be no economic recovery so there will never be any money for anything. I dismiss the claims by some Leave supporters that they would accept being poorer if that is the result of having nothing to do with other European countries. I note many pensioners complaining about the Winter Fuel Payment, the triple lock and anything else being taken away so they will clearly not accept being poorer. Some may believe that having nothing to do with the rest of Europe will lead to the UK being a land of milk and honey but that is what happens when certain politicians propagate fantasies.

To be fair the United Kingdom has more free trade with the EU than Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. The United Kingdom is the only country that has unlimited free trade with the EU. While Norway, Iceland and Switzerland do have free trade deals with the EU they are not unrestricted free trade deals. Most notably they normally exclude food and drink as well as agricultural products.

As I said though, rejoining the EU is a topic for another thread. My point was given that Makerfield voted leave by a wide margin it's unlikely that a pro-EU position is going to go down well with voters there.

 

[Cdd89]

As I said though, rejoining the EU is a topic for another thread. My point was given that Makerfield voted leave by a wide margin it's unlikely that a pro-EU position is going to go down well with voters there.

It's quite fitting that the topic has invaded this thread where it doesn't belong, since that's exactly what it promises to do in this upcoming by-election!

 

[weeklycommuter]

To be fair the United Kingdom has more free trade with the EU than Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. The United Kingdom is the only country that has unlimited free trade with the EU. While Norway, Iceland and Switzerland do have free trade deals with the EU they are not unrestricted free trade deals. Most notably they normally exclude food and drink as well as agricultural products.

The UK trade deal with the EU is about tariff and quota free trade on UK and EU origin goods. The UK economy is 80% services. That is why Labour politicians need to focus on re-joining the Single Market though the UK also needs the Common Food Safety Area agreement that Switzerland has with the EU for food trade. Labour politicians at present appear very confused about the changes to the trade agreement with the EU that are needed to grow the UK economy without which they will face very disappointed voters at the next general election.

The Reality of UK Services Trade Post-Brexit - British Chambers of Commerce

The services sector represents 80% of UK output, but LSE research indicates a 16% drop in services exports to key EU markets affected by Brexit trade barriers.

www.britishchambers.org.uk

The services sector is our most important economic asset, accounting for 80% of total UK output.  However, the latest research by London School of Economics (LSE) shows that services exports have declined by around 16% in the EU markets most affected by Brexit-related trade barriers.  This supports the evidence BCC hears directly from UK businesses.

Before  the introduction of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement (TCA) in 2021, many of the UK’s professional services firms – particularly in legal, financial, and consultancy – had built strong cross-border relationships with clients across the EU. Services accounted for over 40% of total UK exports to the EU, highlighting the sector’s high level of integration with European markets.

However, with the introduction of the TCA, new requirements, such as licensing, residency rules, and the lack of mutual recognition of professional qualifications – have created a significant challenge for UK service exporters. BCC data confirms the impact: nearly half of businesses exporting services cite red tape and market access issues as key barriers post-Brexit. Many report losing European clients due to regulatory complexity and lack of mutual recognition. This is particularly concerning given the UK’s longstanding strength in services, which account for around 80% of GDP and more than half of total exports.

 

[edwin_m]

To be fair the United Kingdom has more free trade with the EU than Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. The United Kingdom is the only country that has unlimited free trade with the EU. While Norway, Iceland and Switzerland do have free trade deals with the EU they are not unrestricted free trade deals. Most notably they normally exclude food and drink as well as agricultural products.

The UK doesn't really have free trade with the EU. There may be no formal tariff barrier but there is a lot of extra paperwork and checking, which is what Starmer has been quietly trying to reduce. This has resulted in extra costs for imported food, the UK suffering disproprtionately from shortages (easier for suppliers to sell to the EU than to jump through the hoops to export to the UK), and some UK companies moving their warehousing (and jobs and taxes) to the EU or shutting down entirely because the paperwork has made it impractical to service the European market in small consignments.

 

[bahnause]

They are making a hash of this. There is no need for the UK to re-join the European Union. All they have to do is make the UK part of the European Single Market outside the European Union with a deal like those of Norway, Iceland and Switzerland. The reason for doing this is that the UK economy is stagnant and will remain so as long as the UK is outside the European Single Market.

This (rightly) requires the acceptance of the "Four Freedoms": free movement of goods, services, capital, and people.

 

[styles]

Sort of, Starmer has (finally) accepted the results of the 2016 vote and the 2019 election. He probably still wants the country to rejoin the EU but as Sir Robert Peel put it Starmer has accepted "a final and irrevocable settlement of a great constitutional question".

Starmer voted Remain, then said we should honour the Leave result, then actually campaigned for a second referendum, then said no actually we should accept the result. The Guardian has a slightly more descriptive timeline: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-starmer-has-said-about-brexit-redress-labour

Burnham on the other hand seems to have u turned then u turned again then u turned again. He wanted to remain, then he said he would back leave in a second vote, then he suggested we should rejoin and now he is saying there may be a case in the long term.

Where has Burnham U-turned? As I said I think he's been consistent in saying he is a Remainer, but doesn't believe in almost immediately overturning the result except in the case that the government at the time ended up in a no-deal situation. I haven't seen that change.

 

[thenorthern]

Where has Burnham U-turned? As I said I think he's been consistent in saying he is a Remainer, but doesn't believe in almost immediately overturning the result except in the case that the government at the time ended up in a no-deal situation. I haven't seen that change.

His U turn on saying he would campaign to leave on a hypothetical Brexit deal is not the same as the policy he was talking about a few days ago.

Interesting now he seems to be playing down the prospects of rejoining the EU. I think he knows that rejoining the EU would not go down well in Makerfield.

 

[styles]

His U turn on saying he would campaign to leave on a hypothetical Brexit deal is not the same as the policy he was talking about a few days ago.

Interesting now he seems to be playing down the prospects of rejoining the EU. I think he knows that rejoining the EU would not go down well in Makerfield.

It's entirely consistent with him saying for a few years now that we shouldn't try and rejoin the EU so quickly after leaving.

There's no U-turn.

 

[HSTEd]

This is all just Streeting and Starmer dragging up the EU in an attempt to stop Burnham winning a seat.

Starmer knows he is definitely finished if Burnham gets into the commons and Streeting has absolutely no chance against Burnham.

Honestly it seems rather desperate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2026 ==

This (rightly) requires the acceptance of the "Four Freedoms": free movement of goods, services, capital, and people.

And, in the context of this forum, acceptance of the fourth rail package and the end of GB Railways before it can even fully manifest.

Labour, amongst other things, would be required to throw away one of its primary domestic policy achievements.

In any case negotiations with the EU would take years and would be politically fraught in the extreme. Especially with all the leverage that it would hand to EU member states to extract concessions.

You might be able to manage something along the lines of Switzerland, but I am skeptical the EU would go for such an unwieldy mechanism again.

 

[ainsworth74]

This (rightly) requires the acceptance of the "Four Freedoms": free movement of goods, services, capital, and people.

Where do I sign?

 

[JamieL]

Streeting's raising of Brexit was clearly an attempt to derail Burnham but it also illuminates the problem. Brexit has been a total disaster weakening our economy, influence, security and relevance. It has contributed to the cost of living crisis. Until Brexit is reversed we are going to be poorer and the cost of living will not be resolved. What the Streeting intervention has revealed, other than his own unsuitability, is that a Burnham Labour would not be able to solve the issue either. Burnham will just be another blind allay that brings us closer to the horrific reality of a Reform Government.

 

[nw1]

On the 10th anniversary of the UK becoming a post-truth nation, I see some of the fundamentalists of the Brexit cult are still not happy. The Express still seems to think it has not gone far enough (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgj3z76z78o):

While the Daily Express notes "Starmer finally falls on his sword" and says "Britain faces a lurch to the left under Burnham", it is the sole paper to lead with the 10-year anniversary of the UK's referendum to leave the European Union. The paper launches its campaign urging politicians to "give us a proper Brexit" and "deliver the will of the people" a decade on.

What do they want?

A complete ban on migration to the UK from the EU, even if you have useful skills?
Holidaymakers visiting the UK from the EU needing a full visa, and being banned from the e-gates?
Fully aligning with Trump and Vance on foreign policy and seeing Continental Europe as the enemy?

I'm not even sure there are many ardent supporters of Brexit left, I suspect most people are neutral on the matter or want an easier relationship with the EU to minimise bureaucracy in trade and travel.

So, then, what is "the will of the people" exactly? Do a majority of UK residents believe Brexit hasn't gone far enough? I would be amazed if that is the case.

The Express is quite evidently a crackpot paper if they honestly believe their own headline. Perhaps they're just doing it for commercial reasons, perhaps they are losing the far-right to ranting TikTokers and need to rein them in.

 

[MarkWi72]

Rejoin the EU and sod the Brexit fascists.

 

[styles]

Brexit isn’t working: British voters are ready for a European future – European Council on Foreign Relations

Ten years on from the referendum, the British electorate has moved on from its old divisions and—in a world of crisis—is embracing an ambitious move back toward

ecfr.eu

ECFR’s survey shows that 75% want some form of closer relationship compared with just 8% who want a more distant one (more on this in Figure 18 later in this paper). Even among leave voters the margin is 66% to 15%.

Across the EU, 66% of voters would support the UK joining—more than the share that endorses simply a closer relationship (59%) or the status quo (46%). Support for UK membership is a majority position everywhere: from 56% in Bulgaria and 59% in France and Italy, to 75% in the Netherlands and Denmark. Danes are the most enthusiastic of all, with 49% saying they back the idea “a lot”.

Even the people we deserted want us back!

 

[Snow1964]

Rejoin the EU and sod the Brexit fascists.

If it was an experiment, it failed

Office for National Statistics, or Bank of England and others now estimate Brexit cost the economy about 6% of its size (some say nearer 5%) and that's on top of damage from covid and Ukraine war and fuel price instability.

The other thing to remember is since the vote about 7 million of electorate have died, and 7 million who were to young to vote have joined the electorate, so electorate has changed by 14 million. Also that younger group who were too young now have to ensure the economic mess.

I suspect if current electorate if easier trade, easier holiday travel, easier hiring workers for hospitals etc through rejoining EU, would not get a Britain is better on its own vote again.

 

[jon0844]

On the 10th anniversary of the UK becoming a post-truth nation, I see some of the fundamentalists of the Brexit cult are still not happy. The Express still seems to think it has not gone far enough (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgj3z76z78o):

Was leaving not enough? Do they want Great Britain to attach a motor and whiz off westwards to join up with north America? We are in Europe whether we like it or not, and mainland Europe (including Ireland) are our biggest trading partner(s).

At a time where rogue states and actors are seeking to undermine countries to get people to vote in right-wing parties that want to get rid of things like worker rights and healthcare, the UK is more vulnerable than ever. We need to be partnered up with a bigger organisation to help us defend ourselves - and that isn't the USA. The USA is now one of the aggressors.

 

[najaB]

As much as I'm pro-Europe and want to see us back in the EU, I also think we need to be honest and recognise that we probably aren't ready to rejoin yet. The hard Brexiteers are still one election away from regaining power and turning us back away from the EU.

 

[ainsworth74]

Was leaving not enough? Do they want Great Britain to attach a motor and whiz off westwards to join up with north America? We are in Europe whether we like it or not, and mainland Europe (including Ireland) are our biggest trading partner(s).

Well surely the problem continues to be that they (the right-wing media and their political friends such as various MPs, commentators and until 2024 the Government) are the dog that caught the car? Over several decades from roughly the early-90s they agitated with growing fervour for this one simple trick to fix Britain's ills and then in 2016 they actually did it, they won the argument and secured a mandate (of some description) to leave the EU and then at the start of 2020 Britain left the EU.

And nothing got better... Indeed things got worse...

Now some of that was Covid (I've often thought that in some respects Boris got lucky with Covid, it helped conceal and distract from Brexit for years) of course along with Ukraine in 2022, and Trump from 2025 onwards. But the point is that they got what they wanted and everything is still as broken as it was and, indeed, is more broken than before we left!

But having spent so much time, money, and effort telling us all that this one simple trick would fix everything they cannot possible now say that they were wrong and it's been a disaster. So they have to pivot to "Brexit hasn't been done properly" as otherwise they have to admit their signature policy has been an utter failure. See also why suddenly the ECHR has shot up in salience. It can't possible be various other issues (including Brexit), it must now be ECHR are preventing us from doing what needs to be done and blocking the "will of the people".

As much as I'm pro-Europe and want to see us back in the EU, I also think we need to be honest and recognise that we probably aren't ready to rejoin yet. The hard Brexiteers are still one election away from regaining power and turning us back away from the EU.

Agreed, I'd vote re-join in a heartbeat. But they'd be mad to have us back right now.

 

[jon0844]

Farage has admitted Brexit failed. Femi Oluwole has attended many Reform events where others have admitted it hasn't worked. Jacob Rees-Mogg claimed it will take about 50 years to see any benefits (great; even more people will be dead by then and won't live to see if he was right).

Nobody can pretend it could work at this point. We did a harder Brexit than even Farage and others promised we would (remember us all being told we'd keep the benefits as they need us more than we need them.. so free trade for us, freedom of movement for us etc etc) so I cannot fathom what anyone means by not doing enough.

The referendum vote was a simple leave or remain option. We left. There was no more nuance than that. Sure, there were about 1001 different interpretations of what leaving might mean, but leave still meant leave!

 

[Tetchytyke]

More than any other politician, I despise David Cameron. He made this mess and, rather than stick around to clean it up, he scarpered as fast as his little trotters would carry him. He's destroyed the country. History doesn't yet seem to judge him as harshly as it should.

Everything about the referendum was jaw-droppingly stupid and everything that has happened since then has been the direct consequence of that jaw-dropping stupidity. 52/48 isn't the will of the people, it could never be the will of the people, and all it has done is create an open sore right through the heart of UK politics.

And that's not me being a salty loser. It would have been exactly the same if remain had won 52/48.

 

[cactustwirly]

The hilarious thing is Reform and Nigel go on about boats and illegal migration

It wouldn't be a problem if we were still part of the EU as there would be a legal mechanism of removal via the Dublin treaty

 

[Tetchytyke]

And, in the context of this forum, acceptance of the fourth rail package and the end of GB Railways before it can even fully manifest.

Labour, amongst other things, would be required to throw away one of its primary domestic policy achievements.

The fourth rail package wouldn't affect GB Railways any more than it affects SNCF, DB, etc. You can have GB Railways in a liberalised railway market. We already have GB Railways in a liberalised railway market.

 

[jon0844]

And that's not me being a salty loser. It would have been exactly the same if remain had won 52/48.

Farage made it very clear he wouldn't have accepted the result if it had been in reverse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Jun 2026 ==

The hilarious thing is Reform and Nigel go on about boats and illegal migration

It wouldn't be a problem if we were still part of the EU as there would be a legal mechanism of removal via the Dublin treaty

This needs to be what Labour uses to justify rejoining the EU. Brexit has failed - immigration has increased - Farage is responsible.

Let's rejoin and reduce immigration.. and while we're at it, let's not be quite so generous in terms of benefits for EU citizens just as other EU member states do. We were stupidly generous and there was never any reason or justification to do so.

Fixing our problems requires us to be more closely aligned with our nearest neighbours. Sure, we can move towards rejoining in a more gradual way but I also think if a referendum was called again, rejoining would win and convincingly. Sure, the right would spend an absolute fortune to try and convince us otherwise but it's a little harder to do that when people saw with their own eyes what happened. Not impossible as people do seem capable of ignoring what they see and hear, but definitely not as easy as it was before.

 

[JamesT]

The hilarious thing is Reform and Nigel go on about boats and illegal migration

It wouldn't be a problem if we were still part of the EU as there would be a legal mechanism of removal via the Dublin treaty

No, Dublin was a waste of time. Less than 10% of requests to return were accepted. Some years we ended up taking in more immigrants through Dublin than we sent back. There's no evidence it was any sort of deterrent, the boat numbers started rising massively before we left.

 

[najaB]

Agreed, I'd vote re-join in a heartbeat. But they'd be mad to have us back right now.

If I was the EU I would insist on at least three referenda across several years or, in a single referendum, a supermajority in favour of rejoining.

There's no evidence it was any sort of deterrent, the boat numbers started rising massively before we left.

And continued to rise afterwards. Almost as if migration was being driven by factors outside of our EU membership.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the boat numbers started rising massively before we left

We left the EU on 31 January 2020.

MigrationWatch UK, a right wing pressure group, have some stats:

Channel Crossing Tracker | Migration Watch UK

Since 2018, illegal immigrants have been attempting to enter the United Kingdom by crossing the English Channel in small boats, often using inflatable dinghies.

www.migrationwatchuk.org

Total small boat crossing by year:
2018 - 299
2019 - 1843
2020 - 8466
2021 - 28,526
2022 - 45,774

So in the two years before Brexit we had 2,000 small boat arrivals. In the two years after Brexit we had 37,000 small boat arrivals.

But sure, the previous system wasn't working!

 

[ainsworth74]

And that's not me being a salty loser. It would have been exactly the same if remain had won 52/48.

Indeed Farage is on record as having said as much:

The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win

The Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business'

www.mirror.co.uk

Of course pressure for a referendum the other way however (to rejoin) is contrary to the will of the people and certainly not something that should be entertained...

 

[jon0844]

Indeed Farage is on record as having said as much:

Nigel Farage wants second referendum if Remain campaign scrapes narrow win

The Ukip leader speaks to the Mirror’s Associate Editor Kevin Maguire and warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business'

www.mirror.co.uk

Of course pressure for a referendum the other way however (to rejoin) is contrary to the will of the people and certainly not something that should be entertained...

It's funny that a referendum result that goes your way means no vote ever again. It's the will of the people for eternity.

But these same people are calling for general elections every day of the week.

 

[HSTEd]

The fourth rail package wouldn't affect GB Railways any more than it affects SNCF, DB, etc. You can have GB Railways in a liberalised railway market. We already have GB Railways in a liberalised railway market.

You can't, unless GB railways goes out for competitive tender exactly like a franchise or concession.

As we speak even SNCF is being broken up into franchises and put out to tender.