BREL & Nationalisation

[The Growl]

What if nationalization meant BREL could open up, create British Trains for British commuters, and sell trains round the world to subsidize for the Nationalized railway. Just a thought. Also because I'm sick to death of electrostars. (Aware that they're made here).

 

[hwl]

What if nationalization meant BREL could open up, create British Trains for British commuters, and sell trains round the world to subsidize for the Nationalized railway. Just a thought. Also because I'm sick to death of electrostars. (Aware that they're made here).

The remains of BREL is now effectively Bombardier Derby (including most of the IP) and the electrostar is descended from the Networkers.

 

[The Growl]

The remains of BREL is now effectively Bombardier Derby (including most of the IP)

They could always build a new one. What's to stop them?

 

[cjmillsnun]

They could always build a new one. What's to stop them?

Financial viability.

The BREL of the past was made up of the railway works from the original private railway companies. As they owned the railway as well as the works, it made sense for them to be absorbed by the nationalisation process that formed BR.

If you renationalised and decided to start from scratch, you would have nothing, no IP, no workers, no buildings, no equipment. Far from subsidising the network, it would haemorrhage public money to set up and get to the stage where they would be in a position to build something even remotely acceptable for the British market (you're talking at least 5 years, possibly 10). Then as far as exports goes, you have the problem of loading gauge. In the UK it is smaller than elsewhere. This means that trains designed for the UK market would be narrow in comparison to those in Europe. This would prevent delivery by rail, as unless you sited the factory near HS1, you could not haul the trains on UK infrastructure. It really is a non starter.

If you were to nationalise the various works, then their foreign owners would take all the IP with them, meaning you would have factories without being able to build a train until an entirely new one was designed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What if nationalization meant BREL could open up, create British Trains for British commuters, and sell trains round the world to subsidize for the Nationalized railway. Just a thought. Also because I'm sick to death of electrostars. (Aware that they're made here).

I think you are 70 or possibly 170 years too late.
There is no market for British trains around the world, nor for UK government-owned factories to make them.
Anyway, the future product from Derby is Aventra not Electrostar.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Assuming you are not trolling, I am afraid your post reveals an incredibly naive understanding (or non-understanding) of what a manufacturing business needs to be successful.

To make even a 'simple' day-to-day item on a commercial basis - think plastic cutlery or even, say, wooden furniture - requires a vast array of skills and organisation from the actual artisan skills on the shop floor to marketing to legal advisers on health and Safety and employment law, etc etc. (Note, I am talking about a viable, commercial basis - not making a one off chair in your garage, though even that requires significant skills and know-how.)

To create a manufacturing operation capable of turning a mixture of raw materials from steel and other metals to various plastics using welds, screws, bolts, adhesives and I don't know what from the drawing board to a finished product requires millions and millions of man hours.

And that would be just to sell the stuff in your home country. Setting up a sales and marketing force capable of competing with established rivals for foreign sales would, in itself, be a hugely costly (and risky) project.

This is also a lesson in the cost of losing or destroying knowledge and assets. When diesels and electric traction were being considered versus steam, one of steam's strongest points was the relative cost of manufacturing. Steam locomotives were (I forget exactly) but probably something like 20% - 25% of the cost of a new diesel.

Look at the cost of Tornado - wasn't it around £3m? - and that using vast amounts of free volunteer time and gifted engineering components.

In other words, if you built a steam loco today on a purely commercial basis, it would cost far more than an equivalent diesel, because all (or at least many of) the skills associated with design and manufacture would have to be re-created.

As one poster upthread noted, BR and BREL inherited this vast array of knowledge and assets after the Big 4 were nationalised.

(As the 1960s song went, You don't realise what you've got till it's gone. )

As to the practicalities of selling rolling stock to foreign railways - see the post on loading gauges - although, of course, if you had the right product ready, off the shelf to BR loading gauges, it sill might sell a bit - eg as BREL did with Mk 2 carriages to Irish Railways in the 70s.

 

[Bald Rick]

They could always build a new one. What's to stop them?

Who is 'them?'

 

[cjmillsnun]

Who is 'them?'

If he's talking about nationalisation, he means the government.

 

[Rail Blues]

Maybe get together with the bloke on the Class 60 thread who wanted to buy and re-engineer a class 60 on his own.

Someone else who was alarmingly naïve, thought the railway were set up to please rail anoraks and who had no real idea of the way the world works.

 

[J-2739]

A question: say, if BR survived to this day, would BREL have also survived? Or am I missing something?

I don't think something like BREL would come back anytime soon. Wouldn't you have to do something like a change in the education system? (happy to be corrected)

 

[cjmillsnun]

A question: say, if BR survived to this day, would BREL have also survived? Or am I missing something?

I don't think something like BREL would come back anytime soon. Wouldn't you have to do something like a change in the education system? (happy to be corrected)

It depends. Possibly. The Mk1 EMUs would have had to have been replaced anyway, and would've been done at a slower rate, so it is likely they could've coped with replacing the entire fleet.

But EU laws on competitive tender would still exist.

 

[The Growl]

Ah, I suppose I am naive in these things, I suppose British Trains are a thing of the past.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A question: say, if BR survived to this day, would BREL have also survived? Or am I missing something?
I don't think something like BREL would come back anytime soon. Wouldn't you have to do something like a change in the education system? (happy to be corrected)

BREL was purchased by ABB (Asea Brown Boveri - Swedish/Swiss group) in 1989, well before BR was semi-privatised.
ABB then became ADTranz in 1996 (ABB Daimler Benz, dominated by Germany), and was then bought by Bombardier in 2001.

At the same time, GEC (formerly GEC/EE/MetCam) was merged with the rail business of Alcatel (Alsthom) to become GEC-Alsthom, and GEC then sold out to Alcatel forming French-dominated Alstom.

This consolidation process was unstoppable. All these businesses came close to collapse over the last 20 years or so.
Alstom and Bombardier are still not out of the woods financially.
Even Siemens has corporate trouble (outside of rail).
Hitachi pounced to get Ansaldo last year while it was flat on the floor.
Train manufacturing is a tough business.

 

[Northhighland]

BREL was purchased by ABB (Asea Brown Boveri - Swedish/Swiss group) in 1989, well before BR was semi-privatised.
ABB then became ADTranz in 1996 (ABB Daimler Benz, dominated by Germany), and was then bought by Bombardier in 2001.

This consolidation process was unstoppable.
At the same time, GEC (formerly GEC/EE/MetCam) was merged with the rail business of Alcatel (Alsthom) to become GEC-Alsthom, and GEC then sold out to Alcatel forming French-dominated Alstom.

the point you miss though is that he French and German governments actively pursue policies that allow their business to prosper, no surprise that tteh French and german firms survive and the British ones don't.

the Thatcher government started a process of selling the UK plc to anyone willing to buy it. We are fixated with short term planning and do nothing on long term planning for success. the French and german economies still have large manufacturing and Engineering capabilities where in the UK we have absolutely thrown ours away.

Business in the UK don't pan for 5 to 10 years and further, they plan for the next 3 years. British companies that do start sell out quickly, there is no long term support for UK businesses.

We could still be making trains, the Italians could be buying our trains as could the dutch. Instead the Dutch are subsidising their railways by running ours. Successive governments of all colours have failed to see we need to make things. that is why we have so many poorly paid service jobs in our economy. Very few skilled highly paid jobs.

 

[43096]

the point you miss though is that he French and German governments actively pursue policies that allow their business to prosper, no surprise that tteh French and german firms survive and the British ones don't.

Meanwhile, in other news, Alstom have announced that locomotive production at Belfort is to cease. I'm not sure that I'd use French industry as an example as they've hardly been successful outside of their own country in recent years. If you look at loco production, Alstom have sold virtually nothing in Europe in recent years, in marked contrast to Siemens EuroSprinters and Vectrons and Bombardier's TRAXX.

 

[danielnez1]

Meanwhile, in other news, Alstom have announced that locomotive production at Belfort is to cease. I'm not sure that I'd use French industry as an example as they've hardly been successful outside of their own country in recent years. If you look at loco production, Alstom have sold virtually nothing in Europe in recent years, in marked contrast to Siemens EuroSprinters and Vectrons and Bombardier's TRAXX.

Now that GE bagged Alstom's power business, I don't see how Alstom can survive long term as just a train manufacturer unless they diversify into other areas.

If I remember correctly, from the late 1970s, Metro-Cammell mainly did "final assembly", like what modern manufacturers do today, where parts and bodywork are sourced from 3rd party companies. Also, perhaps with hindsight, when Laird PLC were selling off Metro-Cammell, perhaps if the bus and rail divisions were spun off as a single operation, the company might have been more viable in the long run.

 

[pdeaves]

Over and above what others have said, don't forget that BR also purchased loads of rolling stock from private suppliers. English Electric, Sulzer, Brush, Met Cam and many others come to mind. In some respects you could say that BREL was a minor player!

 

[najaB]

Business in the UK don't pan for 5 to 10 years and further, they plan for the next 3 years. British companies that do start sell out quickly, there is no long term support for UK businesses.

That will be news to the thousands of successful British businesses out there. The UK still makes a lot of high-value stuff. For example Surrey Satellite Technology is a world leader in small satellite construction. Airbus is a world leader in large composite structures. Rolls Royce makes the world's most popular jet engines, etc.

People like to talk down Britain and British manufacturing like you just did without making statements that bear any relationship to reality.

But hey, why let facts spoil a rant?