Breckland Line Electrification

[oliMw]

Hi
I think the Breckland line should be electrified because it would make leeway for class 317/321/379 to operate to cambridge and stansted Airport from Norwich. Also It could introduce a hourly Kings Cross to Norwich service using 317/321/365s

 

[judethegreat]

Hi
I think the Breckland line should be electrified because it would make leeway for class 317/321/379 to operate to cambridge and stansted Airport from Norwich. Also It could introduce a hourly Kings Cross to Norwich service using 317/321/365s

Then follow up with electrification of cross country routes to East Anglia, including Ipswich/Felixstowe, and blanket coverage of the region.. Agreed entirely, but sadly low priority..

 

[oliMw]

Even without electrification a half hourly cambridge to Norwich service with an extension to Stansted airport would be easy enough

 

[judethegreat]

While we're on the subject, I've thought before about having services from Cambridge to Norwich via Newmarket and Bury, either reversing at Stowmarket or with a new curve, to give those towns a Norwich service aswell as Cambridge-Diss, still preferably keeping the service via Thetford aswell.
If electrification of a route from Peterborough to Norwich were to happen (for freight aswell as passenger), the Bury route could be an option, as it would do both Ipswich and Norwich in one go. Ideally though both would be done ofcourse, if only for a London service.
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Even without electrification a half hourly cambridge to Norwich service with an extension to Stansted airport would be easy enough

Yeah, or still London, possibly with Bi-mode units.

 

[DXMachina]

I'm starting to think that a bi-mode commuter E(D)MU is a certainty for the mid-future as short-term projects are going to make a lot more services part-under-the-wires

Scarborough to/from anywhere for instance.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Even without electrification a half hourly cambridge to Norwich service with an extension to Stansted airport would be easy enough

Would it? I'm not too sure about paths and platforms into Stansted Airport...

 

[judethegreat]

I'm starting to think that a bi-mode commuter E(D)MU is a certainty for the mid-future as short-term projects are going to make a lot more services part-under-the-wires

Scarborough to/from anywhere for instance.

I actually like the idea of a modern version of the REPs and TCs, the "TC" possibly being a DMU, but powering the driving wheels of the EMU, and vice versa. Even if the "TC" was powered by a loco (which would be better for the EMU as it wouln't have to power dead diesel engine and fuel around) the "TC" could still have powered wheels to be driven by the EMU or the loco.

 

[Aictos]

In a ideal world, Electrification would be useful for Peterborough to Newark Northgate/Doncaster via Lincoln as well as ensuring any MML electrification included Nottingham to Grantham.

In the Anglia region, wiring up Peterborough to Ely including Whitemoor yard as well as Ely to Ipswich via Bury St Edmunds would mean freight being electrically hauled between Ipswich and Doncaster via Grantham which at just over 162 miles is worth it or Ipswich to Doncaster via Lincoln at 174 miles is worth it.

These ought to be the next lines to be done after which the Cross Country/East Midlands routes between Norwich and Liverpool/Birmingham should be wired up.

Sadly though, I very much doubt any of the above will happen in my lifetime and I'm only 27

 

[tbtc]

How would London - Cambridge - Norwich compare to London - Ipswich - Norwich time-wise (based on existing London - Cambridge and Cambridge - Norwich services)?

Would it be close enough to attract a chunk of the market?

 

[oliMw]

Norwich – Thetford 27 Mins
Thetford – Ely 22Mins
Ely to Cambridge 16 Mins
Cambridge – Liverpool Street 1h 08 Mins
Total Time: 2h 13 Mins

So it is approximately 18 minutes slower than the Great Eastern Main Line.

 

[David Goddard]

And these are only the present diesel timings, so the electrics will be a bit faster, but not a great deal owing to the curvature of the Breckland line.

 

[tbtc]

Norwich – Thetford 27 Mins
Thetford – Ely 22Mins
Ely to Cambridge 16 Mins
Cambridge – Liverpool Street 1h 08 Mins
Total Time: 2h 13 Mins

So it is approximately 18 minutes slower than the Great Eastern Main Line.

Thanks - so a service via Cambridge could be timed in between the "via Ipswich" services... could be a good way of increasing capacity, as well as introducing a direct London service to a few places between Ely and Norwich

 

[Greenback]

Thanks - so a service via Cambridge could be timed in between the "via Ipswich" services... could be a good way of increasing capacity, as well as introducing a direct London service to a few places between Ely and Norwich

I thought you were a bit cynical about direct London services?!

I'm all in favour of electrification, but how would Cambridge to Norwich stack up against other routes? Should it be a priority, or are other lines more deserving?

And should I move this thread to Infrastructure?

 

[dk1]

How would London - Cambridge - Norwich compare to London - Ipswich - Norwich time-wise (based on existing London - Cambridge and Cambridge - Norwich services)?

Would it be close enough to attract a chunk of the market?

With the GEML often blocked on Sunday's i am a regular user of the 14.15 Kings Cross-Kings Lynn. This train has me into Ely at 15.21 making a good connection (& time for a coffee) with EMTs 15.33 to Norwich. Booked arrival time is 16.35 but it is usually in by 16.25. London-Norwich 2h10m with one easy change

 

[oliMw]

Yeah move it to infrastructure

 

[David Goddard]

I actually like the idea of a modern version of the REPs and TCs, the "TC" possibly being a DMU, but powering the driving wheels of the EMU, and vice versa. Even if the "TC" was powered by a loco (which would be better for the EMU as it wouln't have to power dead diesel engine and fuel around) the "TC" could still have powered wheels to be driven by the EMU or the loco.

Assuming some form of multiple working could be sorted out, you could operate a three car 170/2 from Norwich to Ely, where it can join to one or two Cl379s from there to London.

As there are only 8 three car 170/2s the mods would not affect too many sets.

 

[Greenback]

Yeah move it to infrastructure

Electrification discussions are usually in Infrastructre, so I will move this thread, though there is an element of rolling stock involved.

 

[oliMw]

Ideally 6 car class 170s would be best for this service

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm all in favour of electrification, but how would Cambridge to Norwich stack up against other routes? Should it be a priority, or are other lines more deserving?

Other lines are far more deserving.

Also, Ely north Jn is at capacity for most of the daytime period, so needs comprehensive and expensive remodelling to enable any more services.

 

[David Goddard]

Other lines are far more deserving.

Also, Ely north Jn is at capacity for most of the daytime period, so needs comprehensive and expensive remodelling to enable any more services.

Which, according to some reports, is being mooted. Sounds like it may get to resemble something like what was cut back in 1992.

 

[tbtc]

I thought you were a bit cynical about direct London services?!

I'm all in favour of electrification, but how would Cambridge to Norwich stack up against other routes? Should it be a priority, or are other lines more deserving?

True

Two reasons for justifying this (in my eyes) if the line is electrified are

1. Electrification works best in self contained areas (rather than wiring one line in an area, and seeing that most services under those wires are still diesel, like the ECML north of York). East Anglia is a pretty self contained rail network (apart from the hourly EMT Liverpool service, which would probably benefit from cutting, and the hourly XC Birmingham service). So, whilst frequencies in East Anglia are not as high as in some parts of the UK, by electrifying the few remaining lines you'd allow almost all services to move to EMU operation - compared to Cardiff/Bristol where there may be more services but most will still be DMU run after the GWML is electrified).

2. The fact that (apart from the hourly Kings Lynn service) there are no London trains north of Cambridge feels artificial to me.

If a direct London service means running a diesel hundreds of miles a day under the wires (as it does for something like Sunderland - London) then I'd question whether that was operationally efficient. But if you are wiring the Ely - Norwich line (as was suggested by the OP) then that's another matter. In essence, running 170s all the way to London would be A Bad Thing (see also the Great Yarmouth/ Lowestoft experiment), but if the line is electrified then that changes things...

(but you are absolutely right to pick me up on this, as I appreciate that it is one of my bugbears )

 

[judethegreat]

True

Two reasons for justifying this (in my eyes) if the line is electrified are

1. Electrification works best in self contained areas (rather than wiring one line in an area, and seeing that most services under those wires are still diesel, like the ECML north of York). East Anglia is a pretty self contained rail network (apart from the hourly EMT Liverpool service, which would probably benefit from cutting, and the hourly XC Birmingham service). So, whilst frequencies in East Anglia are not as high as in some parts of the UK, by electrifying the few remaining lines you'd allow almost all services to move to EMU operation - compared to Cardiff/Bristol where there may be more services but most will still be DMU run after the GWML is electrified).

2. The fact that (apart from the hourly Kings Lynn service) there are no London trains north of Cambridge feels artificial to me.

If a direct London service means running a diesel hundreds of miles a day under the wires (as it does for something like Sunderland - London) then I'd question whether that was operationally efficient. But if you are wiring the Ely - Norwich line (as was suggested by the OP) then that's another matter. In essence, running 170s all the way to London would be A Bad Thing (see also the Great Yarmouth/ Lowestoft experiment), but if the line is electrified then that changes things...

(but you are absolutely right to pick me up on this, as I appreciate that it is one of my bugbears )

Agree entirely

 

[HSTEd]

Well after MML electrification the Liverpool-Norwich service could be diverted via Derby which would leave only the Breckland Line, Nottingham-Grantham adn Hope Valley as gaps in the service.

Hopefully Hope Valley and Nottingham-Grantham will be done as part of the MML electrification (atleast I have high hopes for the former) either as freight arteries or for diversionary purposes. The latter wouldn't even require any additional substations.

At that point the entire route could feasibly be converted to electric traction.
Giving you another train per hour over the route to add to your cost/benefit.

And no cutting that train. The East Midlands made that very clear last time it was mooted

 

[oliMw]

by electrifying the few remaining lines you'd allow almost all services to move to EMU operation

Although Saying that the Breckland line, the Ipswich to Ely and Cambridge line and the Felixstowe to Ipswich line Would be good for both Freight and Passengers but Other Branch lines are better off with DMU's

 

[jopsuk]

Aye- the other branches out of Norwich don't make much sense for electrification really other than in a "completist" sense, unless you can also modify to improve frequency and travel time and try to convert road traffic to rail. The Sudbury branch maybe would make sense though

 

[oliMw]

The Sudbury branch maybe would make sense though

Problem with electrifying that route is that there are not many 2 car EMUs around

 

[LE Greys]

Well after MML electrification the Liverpool-Norwich service could be diverted via Derby which would leave only the Breckland Line, Nottingham-Grantham adn Hope Valley as gaps in the service.

Hopefully Hope Valley and Nottingham-Grantham will be done as part of the MML electrification (atleast I have high hopes for the former) either as freight arteries or for diversionary purposes. The latter wouldn't even require any additional substations.

At that point the entire route could feasibly be converted to electric traction.
Giving you another train per hour over the route to add to your cost/benefit.

And no cutting that train. The East Midlands made that very clear last time it was mooted

And East Anglia backed that up. We're not just England's backside, you know, nor London's dormitary (that's Surrey). Occasionally, we want to travel north and west.

Ely-Peterborough would be a useful ECML diversionary route, with a Whitemoor-Spalding section to allow freight to avoid Peterborough (have to go around the prison). So that gets freight out of the way, and hopefully prevents chaos every time the wires come down at Huntingdon. (It might even give the chance to redo the Hundingdon section with gantries, or is that too much to hope for?) Anyway, that would provide some justification to link up all the other wired sections. Norwich-Glasgow anyone?

 

[jopsuk]

Problem with electrifying that route is that there are not many 2 car EMUs around

They'd have to be built, certainly. Or perhaps the "sparks effect" would mean that three car ones would be justified.

 

[tbtc]

Problem with electrifying that route is that there are not many 2 car EMUs around

Good point.

This is a problem with some of the electrification wishlists I've seen. No disrespect to the good people of East Anglia, but there are some branches run by 153s where a full sized EMU would be a bit of a waste.

Then again, if you think that the "main lines" in East Anglia have a good enough case for electrification then there's the question about what to do with the small number of DMUs left over. Could it be more economical to electrify the branches than to retain a handful of 153s? Especially as electrification allows through running. But I can't be sure.

 

[HSTEd]

Single carriage EMUs exist in Europe, so I don't see any reason to believe they could not here.
Even so, paired carriage vehicles would likely be neccesary due to DDA and there is no particular reason they could not be built that I can see, especially with advancements in power electronics.