Breastfeeding Mother Forced to Stand on Train

[bb21]

The notion that a woman is more in need of a helping hand has its roots deep in the culture of male chauvinism.

I sympathise with people who were brought up with such views, as that is what got ingrained in their minds and what they always considered right and good manners all their lives.

Meanwhile society has moved on, for the better on the equality front in my opinion. Every generation likes to look down on the next and think that things have got worse, because society had evolved in a direction they were not used to, and it is a damn scary thing, but there is no chance in hell I would ever go back to any of the past decades if given a choice.

As with others, imo it is simply good manners to look after those in more need than ourselves, by giving up our seats sometimes, but there is no hard evidence to suggest that gender alone makes any material difference to one's needs, other than "we were always taught this" or "I grew up with that idea".

 

[route:oxford]

Just noticed in the 'news' article she'd described as a blogger so maybe she's trying to get some free publicity for her blog.

Ah, a "blogger".

Definitely wouldn't engage with one of them.

 

[TheSel]

Far too much here about the rights and wrongs of chivalry, manners, politeness, courtesy and so on.

What about the poor infant in all this? I'll bet he was feeling a right tit!

 

[shredder1]

It's moved towards genuine equality, which includes having the same right to a seat as a man. I'd say that's a large step forward, and offering a woman a seat just because she's a woman is still setting men and women apart. Why should it not be the other way round, with women offering men seats? Because it's backwards, and behaviour such as that has no place in the 21st century. I'm sure many people would consider a social obligation such as that sexism so why wouldn't it be so the other way round?

I can only reiterate post 27

 

[Steve Harris]

The notion that a woman is more in need of a helping hand has its roots deep in the culture of male chauvinism.

I sympathise with people who were brought up with such views, as that is what got ingrained in their minds and what they always considered right and good manners all their lives.

Meanwhile society has moved on, for the better on the equality front in my opinion. Every generation likes to look down on the next and think that things have got worse, because society had evolved in a direction they were not used to, and it is a damn scary thing, but there is no chance in hell I would ever go back to any of the past decades if given a choice.

As with others, imo it is simply good manners to look after those in more need than ourselves, by giving up our seats sometimes, but there is no hard evidence to suggest that gender alone makes any material difference to one's needs, other than "we were always taught this" or "I grew up with that idea".

Well said.

 

[NoOnesFool]

The notion that a woman is more in need of a helping hand has its roots deep in the culture of male chauvinism.

.

I agree with this one hundred percent and this is an issue that is conveniently forgotten..perhaps some people only want equality when it suits.

 

[ComUtoR]

The notion that a woman is more in need of a helping hand has its roots deep in the culture of male chauvinism.

Chauvinism or Chivalry ?

As with others, imo it is simply good manners to look after those in more need than ourselves, by giving up our seats sometimes, but there is no hard evidence to suggest that gender alone makes any material difference to one's needs, other than "we were always taught this" or "I grew up with that idea".

I open a door for a lady, give up my seat, never hit a woman, ladies first, women and children first etc. all based on what I was taught as good manners. It is very much ingrained me. I am aware of the history between male and females and I am culturally sensitive. I feel a little twinge in my stomach that I can understand where it could be considered to be based on a chauvinistic view of women being 'fragile'

I would thank you for pointing it out but I'm having a minor crisis of conscious :/

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Female opinion: she should not expect anyone to offer her a seat. She should also have waited to feed the baby if she was on a train without a reserved seat. Zero sympathy.

 

[Ianno87]

Female opinion: she should not expect anyone to offer her a seat. She should also have waited to feed the baby if she was on a train without a reserved seat. Zero sympathy.

Have you ever breastfed a baby? You *can't* wait to feed them, and why should ahe have to? That's the point of breastfeeding - available on tap whenever.

Besides, it looks like a GA EMU of some description? No seat reservations to be had for anybody.

 

[Intermodal]

Female opinion: she should not expect anyone to offer her a seat. She should also have waited to feed the baby if she was on a train without a reserved seat. Zero sympathy.

Sorry, all things being equal, your opinion is generally worth less and you will have to wait for a man to give up his opinion before you can have one of your own. After all, it's how I was brought up and only good manners. /s

 

[bb21]

I open a door for a lady, give up my seat, never hit a woman, ladies first, women and children first etc. all based on what I was taught as good manners. It is very much ingrained me. I am aware of the history between male and females and I am culturally sensitive. I feel a little twinge in my stomach that I can understand where it could be considered to be based on a chauvinistic view of women being 'fragile'

I would thank you for pointing it out but I'm having a minor crisis of conscious :/

I think we could all be agreed that no one does those things wanting to be condescending towards the female population, but with their best intentions.

This may well be one of the best examples I have come across that illustrates why people should not automatically vilify others for doing something they consider rude or ill-mannered themselves. It can be merited in some cases granted, but in cases like this there may well be a different perspective.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Have you ever breastfed a baby? You *can't* wait to feed them, and why should ahe have to? That's the point of breastfeeding - available on tap whenever.

Besides, it looks like a GA EMU of some description? No seat reservations to be had for anybody.

I’m not talking about not feeding the baby for hours on end, but if she’s not happy to feed the baby whilst standing on a train when she can’t be sure of getting a seat then either she waits to feed the baby or she waits to travel until the baby has finished. Or she expresses before travelling and gives the baby a bottle whilst travelling.

If I actually noticed someone with a baby who was standing (feeding or not) I’d probably offer my seat if I was in a position to, but it’s the entitlement attitude which annoys me.

 

[Ianno87]

I’m not talking about not feeding the baby for hours on end, but if she’s not happy to feed the baby whilst standing on a train when she can’t be sure of getting a seat then either she waits to feed the baby or she waits to travel until the baby has finished. Or she expresses before travelling and gives the baby a bottle whilst travelling.

What if...
-She has to get that train to make an appointment, and
-She's been out all day (as she probably has been) so can't use expressed milk (which is no good if its been out of the fridge for more than four hours or so)?

Indeed, some women *can't* express milk.

She clearly was 'happy' to feed the baby standing on the train if necessary - that's what she did! She was just unhappy about not one person offering her a seat while she did so.

 

[NoOnesFool]

I appreciate that some people on here, who are male have been brought up with the ladies first mantra etc but it's really one of the last remaining forms of segregation in society. We've thankfully managed to merge people of all ages, race and (partially) sexualities but yet, we still have people saying things such as "women first" and referring to gender as an indicator of how to treat people. I don't understand why we can't just view everyone as a human being, as opposed to being white, black, female etc.

 

[Bedpan]

Far too much here about the rights and wrongs of chivalry, manners, politeness, courtesy and so on.

What about the poor infant in all this? I'll bet he was feeling a right tit!

He must have been, what with his mother milking the situation as much as she can.

 

[whhistle]

The obvious exception in this argument is if the person standing is elderly (in which case it may be harder for them to stand than a fit 25 year old for example) or has some sort of disability. Would your view change if the person standing was a healthy 20 year old woman but the person sat was (say) a 50 year old man?

What if there was an elderly man AND woman?
Who would you offer your seat to then?
This is also where it wades into unintentional discrimination.
Say you have two people who are around the same age, one is deaf, the other has a problem with their leg. Would you automatically offer your seat to the bad leg person (based on their bad leg), and thus discriminating against the deaf person. After all, you're either disabled or not - there's no levels of disability.
Not challenging you, it's a difficult one.


Although if someone challenged me saying "don't you think I can stand?!" - I'd reply with something mildly offensive... "it's called being polite/nice you great oaf/fat old bat" <-- if you're going to offend, might as well make it fun.

 

[Journeyman]

Chauvinism or Chivalry ?



I open a door for a lady, give up my seat, never hit a woman, ladies first, women and children first etc. all based on what I was taught as good manners. It is very much ingrained me. I am aware of the history between male and females and I am culturally sensitive. I feel a little twinge in my stomach that I can understand where it could be considered to be based on a chauvinistic view of women being 'fragile'

I would thank you for pointing it out but I'm having a minor crisis of conscious :/

I open doors for anyone. I never hit anyone. I'll let anyone go in front of me, if it's the polite thing to do. Why only women deserve these courtesies is beyond me.

 

[Emmsie]

A sensible post! The alternative to brestfeeding is the passengers putting up with a shrieking baby for the entirety of the journey, and passengers tutting under their collective breath the whole way.



OK, that experience is probably a bit much for many people, but very much the exception rather than the rule in Britain (plus some other countries nationals are much less 'British' in their reaction when confronted with something perfectly natural like Breastfeeding.)

Had the exact same situation in my coffee shop albeit the mother was English. As a mother that breastfed myself (and on one occasion while standing up with a 2 week old attached to my nipple for the entire 4 hours during the South Florida Fire fighters calendar competition!!) I don't have an issue at all with breastfeeding in public but she stretched my tolerance to the limit and her 'baby' was well over 2 years old.

 

[Clip]

I’m not talking about not feeding the baby for hours on end, but if she’s not happy to feed the baby whilst standing on a train when she can’t be sure of getting a seat then either she waits to feed the baby or she waits to travel until the baby has finished. Or she expresses before travelling and gives the baby a bottle whilst travelling.

Imagine that she had to wait and thus had a screaming child and everyone looking at her like shes a bad mother for letting the kid wail like that.

Cant win can she?

But this thread really is illuminating into the insights of other members

 

[GodAtum]

If you see someone that looks like as if they are uncomfortable and would appreciate a seat, then it is good manners to offer yours

 

[B&I]

It might be considered good manners, if you're able-bodied and in good health, to offer a seat to any person standing, regardless of age or gender. (Not that I always do, I have to confess)

 

[Intermodal]

It might be considered good manners, if you're able-bodied and in good health, to offer a seat to any person standing, regardless of age or gender. (Not that I always do, I have to confess)

I think this is taking the point a bit too far - if it is able bodied versus apparently able bodied then it'll be first come first served in my book, I'm afraid! If they have a hidden disability then they can ask.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think this is taking the point a bit too far - if it is able bodied versus apparently able bodied then it'll be first come first served in my book, I'm afraid! If they have a hidden disability then they can ask.

I think this is probably sensible. Particularly as these days this is made less awkward by specific seats being marked for that purpose (not that I can recall ever having been turfed out of the window side in a priority row, and that's where I normally sit for the legroom; VTWC are more sensible in making all the priority seats aisles).

 

[Mikey C]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-45421266

When you read the full story, she should have been on an earlier train but it was cancelled. The most interesting line was this

"When a lovely lady did get up to offer me her seat, another sat in it, put her headphones in and closed her eyes.

For some reason these stories always seem to come out as "nasty men not standing" when surely the same criticisms should be aimed at young women. Indeed there have been times when I've offered my seat to a pregnant woman, while other younger women didn't offer.

 

[Eccles1983]

Far too much here about the rights and wrongs of chivalry, manners, politeness, courtesy and so on.

What about the poor infant in all this? I'll bet he was feeling a right tit!

Deserved better than the silence it received.

Well played.

For what it's worth, I would offer her a seat. As I would of I seen a man carrying a child on a train.

Too many seem to be hung up on equality. I won't feel ashamed for offering women seats. If that makes me a knuckle dragging relic from the dark ages then so be it.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Imagine that she had to wait and thus had a screaming child and everyone looking at her like shes a bad mother for letting the kid wail like that.

Cant win can she?

But this thread really is illuminating into the insights of other members

Babies (and children) cry. No judgement from me on that. If I were to look over it’d be to see if I could identify why they were crying, say a dropped dummy or toy on the floor, something which I could maybe retrieve etc.

 

[bramling]

What if there was an elderly man AND woman?
Who would you offer your seat to then?
This is also where it wades into unintentional discrimination.
Say you have two people who are around the same age, one is deaf, the other has a problem with their leg. Would you automatically offer your seat to the bad leg person (based on their bad leg), and thus discriminating against the deaf person. After all, you're either disabled or not - there's no levels of disability.
Not challenging you, it's a difficult one.


Although if someone challenged me saying "don't you think I can stand?!" - I'd reply with something mildly offensive... "it's called being polite/nice you great oaf/fat old bat" <-- if you're going to offend, might as well make it fun.

This thread is rapidly making me realise why some people just keep their heads down and don’t interact with others! But no doubt some would find that wrong too.

 

[Ianno87]

Had the exact same situation in my coffee shop albeit the mother was English. As a mother that breastfed myself (and on one occasion while standing up with a 2 week old attached to my nipple for the entire 4 hours during the South Florida Fire fighters calendar competition!!) I don't have an issue at all with breastfeeding in public but she stretched my tolerance to the limit and her 'baby' was well over 2 years old.

World Health Organisation actually recommends breastfeeding in some form (with solid food) up to the age of 5. (Our 2 year old only has a very occasional 'comfort' top up these days - mainly because he gets jealous of the 4 month old's exlusive claim on the supply.

Babies (and children) cry. No judgement from me on that. If I were to look over it’d be to see if I could identify why they were crying, say a dropped dummy or toy on the floor, something which I could maybe retrieve etc.

A) I genuinely appreciate that you are understanding, sadly not everyone is quite so

B) I find it is genuinely stressful that it is ones own child making a racket - its unfair on other passengers, many of whom will have had a hard day at work.

 

[trainophile]

Isn't the problem that unless the request is directed to a particular seated passenger everyone expects someone else to offer? I am mid-60s and feel more entitled to my seat than most younger folk nearby, if that makes me selfish then so be it. If I was that woman it would be tricky to pick on someone to ask for their seat, and embarrassing to put out a general request as it makes everyone in the vicinity feel awkward and starts everyone looking at eachother.

As for the women/men thing - this is a generalisation obviously, but women tend to be carrying more "stuff" (quite apart from infants) than men, who often only have a phone in their hand, while a woman usually has at least a bag and often a shopping bag as well. It could be argued that they shouldn't carry so much, but (generalisation alert 2) they are often responsible for feeding their male partner so need to do shopping! Also like it or not (most) women are still physically the weaker sex - for physiological reasons apart from anything else, and may be suffering from certain regular conditions that don't afflict men.

 

[UP13]

Not a simple case of a man giving up a seat for a woman. It's about a woman with a baby, particularly one nursing.

Being honest I give up seats for fathers struggling with little ones, so let's not bang on about women both wanting their cake and eating it.

In my experience, both during my wife's pregnancies and when I've been with little ones, the main reason people don't give up seats is not out of rudeness but because they are so glued to their phone screens that they don't notice.

As for being rebuked for giving up a seat, I just stand up without saying anything. Either they take it and say thank you or they don't take it and somebody else takes it. Never known anybody to get offended.