Breaking transfer journey in London

[plothi]

If I am transferring across London on a ticket with a dagger symbol, I know that I can break my journey and leave the Underground (but not get back on) at an intermediate station.

However, what is the definition of an intermediate station? Between any two London termini, there are often various routes available, so are there rules about which routes are valid (and therefore which stations are on those routes and by definition 'intermediate')?

More specifically, if I take a train arriving and King's Cross and I can subsequently leave London from Charing Cross on the same ticket, is it legitimate to transfer via Met/Circle to Baker Street, then Bakerloo to Charing Cross? And would it then be acceptable to break the journey at Baker Street?

 

[lightbulb]

In practise, a ticket from, say, Luton to Slough will work the underground ticket barriers at any London Terminal, so although not the intention, it could be used to travel between Kings Cross St Pancras and Charing Cross, at which point the underground validity would cease. You could, of course, resume your journey from Paddington to Slough. In your example, you could travel from Kings Cross to Baker Street, and "break journey" there, but as far the underground travel is concerned, your underground journey has ended, and you would have to pay from Baker Street to Charing Cross. As far as the route taken is concerned, whilst the rules say "by any reasonable route", you could in practise travel between Kings Cross and Charing Cross via Baker Street if you wished. I would expect that you could only "break" your underground journey in a Zone 1 station.

 

[swt_passenger]

I don't believe the LU barriers generally understand the concept of an appropriate London Terminal for your overall route, and they certainly aren't programmed with National Rail routing info. They just look for the cross London marker, and if present that will let you in once and then out once at any of of the LU stations listed on NR's page here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx#travelling_connect

As the NRES instructions explain it:

Tickets displaying this indicator are valid for travel between any two stations shown in the ‘Station List' (below) appropriate to the route of the through journey being made.

So although probably not an appropriate route, in my experience the gates at Baker St will let you out with no problem - it is only when you try to get out of an LU station not on the linked list that you would expect an interesting discussion with the LU gateline staff if not following an 'appropriate route'.

In the unlikely event of revenue staff checking you en route between Kings Cross and Baker St just tell them you are taking the Circle Line all the way round. They wouldn't quibble about that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So although probably not an appropriate route, in my experience the gates at Baker St will let you out with no problem - it is only when you try to get out of an LU station not on the linked list that you would expect an interesting discussion with the LU gateline staff if not following an 'appropriate route'.

I have been questioned at Regent's Park when travelling from Paddington to Euston, and deciding instead of changing at Oxford Circus to walk the last bit. They did let me out, but not before some discussion.

Neil

 

[plothi]

Thank you for the replies, very helpful.

Is circle line really a suitable route from King's Cross to Charing Cross? Firstly, Charing Cross isn't on the circle line (I assume Embankment is nearby?) and the obvious place to change (if using the circle line at all) is Baker Street. Also, taking the circle line around that way, you'd have to change at Edware Road/Paddington.

Basically, I don't need to travel beyond London, but it's cheaper to get a ticket to a destination on the other side of London (and then travel short) than to get one to London.

 

[bb21]

In that case can you not get a ticket to somewhere like Acton Main Line so that Baker Street is more obviously en route, or would that be more expensive?

 

[swt_passenger]

Thank you for the replies, very helpful.

Is circle line really a suitable route from King's Cross to Charing Cross? Firstly, Charing Cross isn't on the circle line (I assume Embankment is nearby?) ...

Sorry, yes I was treating Embankment LU and Charing Cross NR as a logical interchange without explicitly saying so.

 

[thebigcheese]

Interestingly 7.3.1 of the fares guide states:

It is permitted to finish your transfer short at any Underground station in zone 1 ....

Haven't seen a source for this fact though?

 

[swt_passenger]

Interestingly 7.3.1 of the fares guide states:

Haven't seen a source for this fact though?

I wonder if the author may have assumed that all cross London transfer routes are between main line termini, and therefore in zone 1 by default; of course the NRES list tells a different story.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Haven't seen a source for this fact though?

It's on NRE at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx

You'll often have a "discussion" if you're not at the relevant London Terminal, though. I've had a "discussion" at Warren Street before when I've been heading across London from Victoria to Euston (via the Bree Louise, but shhh).

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'll often have a "discussion" if you're not at the relevant London Terminal, though. I've had a "discussion" at Warren Street before when I've been heading across London from Victoria to Euston (via the Bree Louise, but shhh).

This seems to be a general training issue on LU - training staff that tickets with a Maltese cross are valid to enter at a mainline terminus and exit only at any other Zone 1 location plus other specific rail-relevant locations is hardly difficult.

Neil

 

[yorkie]

It's on NRE at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx

You'll often have a "discussion" if you're not at the relevant London Terminal, though. I've had a "discussion" at Warren Street before when I've been heading across London from Victoria to Euston (via the Bree Louise, but shhh).

The discussion can be brief, given that they are not permitted to detain you, and they have virtually no revenue training, and that the rule allowing you to exit intermediately is in the ticketing handbook. If they have access to it, then that will confirm you're right. And if they can't be bothered to read it, or don't have access to it, then they'll have to concede. I do think that CSAs are paid far too much though, they get several grand more than my job, for which I can't just make stuff up as I go along!:roll:

 

[tsr]

It's on NRE at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx

You'll often have a "discussion" if you're not at the relevant London Terminal, though. I've had a "discussion" at Warren Street before when I've been heading across London from Victoria to Euston (via the Bree Louise, but shhh).

Ah, yes. The "discussion" at Warren Street. It once took me about half an hour to get out of that place (on principle - after ten minutes, I wasn't going to have more of my time wasted doubling back and walking from Euston).

After that happened, I gave (someone whom I believe was) a station supervisor a photocopy of the NRE guidance, and funnily enough I never had any further issues. I'm not 100% sure if that was coincidence.

 

[yorkie]

https://uk.linkedin.com/jobs2/view/18492977

£30,079 per annum (yes, really!)

If you get a real buzz from frustrating people and are passionate about inconveniencing customers, come help us demonstrate that “every journey is a chore”, and ensure that our customers remain at the periphery of everything we do here at London Underground. Not only will you enjoy an insanely high salary and benefits package –you will also be part of a team committed to terrible service delivery.

The role

You will be our public face: proactively inconveniencing customers, misleading them on their journeys with inaccurate information whilst providing an unwelcoming presence throughout the station. Not only will you disregard the individual needs of all our customers, especially those with special requirements, you will provide inconsistent levels of service throughout a busy day, ensuring that every customer feels unvalued, making their journeys slower, harder and stressful. You will cause potentially dangerous or hazardous situations and maximise delays by ensuring customers exit stations slowly. Every day will bring more awkward customers and no two will ever be the same.

Note - I am not saying that's what they're all like! Far from it! But there are a significant minority who are like that, and it really annoys me that they get such a huge salary - many thousands in excess of that of responsible positions in the North - and yet treat people so badly.

Your experience is not unique by any means as I've experienced such fatcats on their £30k salary being rude and obstructive to customers on several occasions!

I wonder if management are too scared (of unions) to carry out appropriate 'mystery shopping' to ensure that staff are appropriately trained and acting in accordance of the job description (rather than the complete opposite of it, in some cases).

Did you bill them for 30 minutes of your time?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ah, yes. The "discussion" at Warren Street. It once took me about half an hour to get out of that place

Was about ten minutes for me (well, t'missus, as I have an annual outboundary Travelcard). I wouldn't have minded but it was quite recently, when TfL were recommending people use Warren Street instead of Euston due to escalator works.

 

[talldave]

I've found that ticket barriers at Vauxhall happily open with a "maltese cross" ticket whereas those at Warren Street don't and you have to enter into a long discussion about break of journey with the barrier staff.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I've always assumed that this was a concession to allow passengers to make a choice of how they get between the main line termini, if there is a convenient alternative that involves a short walk. E.g. Liverpool St to Paddington is done most quickly by getting the Central line to Lancaster Gate. It has, in the past but less so now, also been the remedy to some of the long intervals that used to occur on the H&C/Circle.

 

[thebigcheese]

It's on NRE at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46587.aspx

Yeah but there's a big difference between "any Underground station in zone 1" (as per our guide) and "at any intermediate station" (as per NRES)

 

[swt_passenger]

I've found that ticket barriers at Vauxhall happily open with a "maltese cross" ticket whereas those at Warren Street don't and you have to enter into a long discussion about break of journey with the barrier staff.

But that's exactly what you'd expect, because Vauxhall (NR) is a listed 'cross London transfer' station, so of course you'd expect the LU barriers to open; Warren St is not.