Breaking an outward journey

[StevieP]

Quick question for anyone with the fares manual (cheeky as my first post here, I know, but I've been driven mad trying to find an answer anywhere online, and this seems to be the place to ask):

I want to travel from London to Penrith, off-peak (weekday), stopping off in Oxford for a few hours en route. Will I be able to use the outward portion of an offpeak return? The route itself is valid, so far as I can see, but what I can't tell is whether a break in journey (resumed the same day) is allowed.

Any help greatly appreciated!

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forums

These are the terms for that ticket:

Restriction : 5F
estriction : 5F
These restrictions apply
Monday to Friday. By any train
on other days.

FOR TRAVEL TO OR VIA:
London (including Luton
Airport Parkway, Luton, Milton
Keynes, Watford Junction and
Reading) but NOT Kings Cross
& Stevenage & St. Pancras
Int'l.

Code 9F applies_for journeys
from via Kings Cross &
Stevenage.

Code 9J applies for journeys
from/via St Pancras Int'l

OUTWARD TRAVEL
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to DEPART as
shown below:

RETURN TRAVEL
You may travel on any train
that is scheduled to ARRIVE_as
shown below:

DEPART: LONDON EUSTON
At or after 0905.

ARRIVE: LONDON EUSTON
At or after 1005

DEPART: MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL
At or after 0900

ARRIVE: MILTON KEYNES CENTRAL
At or after 1020

DEPART: WATFORD JUNCTION
At or after 0900

ARRIVE: WATFORD JUNCTION
At or after 1020

No Break of Journey allowed on
outward travel, except to
change trains.

Valid on all ScotRail (FSR)
Caledonian Sleeper services
(with supplement).
BVS/BVR/SVS/SVR OFF-PEAK
FSR/FSS/SFR/BFR/BFS
OFF-PEAK (First Class)

Outward/Single/Return Travel:
_____________AVAILABLE ANY DAY

Ticket Code: BVS/SVS
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: SINGLE
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

Ticket Code: FSS/BFS
Ticket Class: FIRST
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: SINGLE
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

Ticket Code: BVR/SVR
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: RETURN
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Return Validity:-
Day - ONE CALENDAR MONTH
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES (SEE NOTES BELOW)
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Group Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

Ticket Code: FSR/SFR/BFR
Ticket Class: FIRST
Ticket Name: OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: RETURN
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Return Validity:-
Day - ONE CALENDAR MONTH
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES (SEE NOTES BELOW)
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
nroup Discount: YES
Refunds: SEE 'REFUNDS' SECTION

NOTES:
1) Time restrictions are
indicated by a restriction
shown against the ticket's
validity code.
2) Holders of 16-25, Senior,
Disabled Persons, HM Forces
and Family & Friends Railcards
, New Deal Photocards and
Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards
travelling with Off-Peak
tickets may use ANY Virgin
train service, as long as the
journey being made is priced
by Virgin Trains. If the
journey is not priced by
Virgin Trains then the stated
Off-Peak restrictions apply.
3) Only Senior, Disabled
persons and HM Forces
Railcards discounts are
offered with First Class
Off-Peak Tickets.

BREAK OF JOURNEY

Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Off-Peak
Returns are valid for travel
on the date shown on the
ticket. Where a passenger
wishes to stop overnight or
the journey cannot be
completed within one day,
break of journey for an
overnight stay is allowed.
Where a journey continues into
the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply (except where regarded
as an unbroken continuation
of the previous day's travel
where the first connection of
the day may be taken).
No further break of journey
is allowed except for the
purpose of changing trains.
Please note that break of
journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed_in
the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Off-Peak
Return tickets are valid for
travel until 0230 on the day
following the last day of
validity (i.e. one calendar
month from the outward
journey). If a passenger is
still travelling at 0230, they
may stay on the train to
complete that part of the
journey but no further break
of journey is allowed and all
travel must be completed by
1200.

Note: Cross London transfers
will only be accepted by
London Underground on the
date shown on the ticket (or
last day of validity for
Off-Peak Returns) and until
0429 the following day.

TICKET INFORMATION:
Off-Peak tickets are not valid
when the journey is affected
by a restriction shown against
the ticket's validity code.

Tickets with a 'Maltese Cross'
shown in the route description
allow transfer across London
on London Underground,
Docklands Light Railway or
First Capital Connect
(Thameslink route) services
appropriate to the route of
the through journey being made

Any local validity easements
can be found in the Easements
section EASEMENTS.

Travel restrictions do not
apply on Public Holidays.

NETWORK AREA:
The London & South East
Network Area is shown in the
London Area Fares section E0

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting outside the Network
Area for travel via London use
restrictions from the origin
station to London and return.
Unless shown otherwise, they
are unrestricted between
London and the destination
station, and return.

SELLING AN OFF-PEAK TICKET
Customers should be told of
any restrictions which may
affect any part of their
journey.

Where available, an
information card giving ticket
validity details should be
given out with each Off-Peak
ticket.

So, yes you can according to one part, but you can't according to another part of the conditions.

No mention of what the time restrictions are from Paddington.

When you have made 5 posts I will send you a PM.

 

[bnm]

Post deleted, duplicate information.

 

[StevieP]

Thanks for that. My reading would be that the restriction would trump the general rule (so that I can't break the journey) - but then I'm not exactly expert... what do you think?

 

[bnm]

So, yes you can according to one part, but you can't according to another part of the conditions.

Now there's a surprise. Conflicting information from NFM:roll:

Really not good enough when the source of information costs upwards of £40 for a year.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for that. My reading would be that the restriction would trump the general rule (so that I can't break the journey) - but then I'm not exactly expert... what do you think?

In the event of conflicting rules, then in consumer law, the rules most in favour of the customer prevail. So I'd be taking screenshots from NFM of the part where it says it is permitted.

So, in the unlikely event that anyone has followed me out of the station (remember breaking your journey means leaving railway premises) and back in, I'd then be able to point to where it says "Break of Journey(OUT): YES" to be let back in...

 

[StevieP]

Cheers for the tip. And thanks both for excellent and speedy replies!

 

[yorkie]

No problem

Where in London are you travelling from? It may be cheaper to buy from somewhere other than London Terminals? Are you wanting to go back on the direct route avoiding Oxford?

 

[John @ home]

StevieP, welcome to the forum!

Placing the debate over Restriction 5F to one side for the moment, can I ask if you are actually starting your journey at Paddington or do you need to travel by public transport to get there? Do you have a season ticket or a Travelcard? If you do, I think we can help. Please tell us the details.

For example, assuming no Railcard, an Off-Peak Return Ealing Broadway - Penrith route Not London costs £81.30 and is valid by any train except those timed to depart Mondays-Fridays before 0415. Restriction 2T says (in four places!) that break of journey is allowed on both outward and return legs and there is no contradictory information. If, having reached Penrith, you then want to return via London then you can do that by paying an excess fare of £2.25.

 

[StevieP]

What I'm actually intending to do is actually slightly more complex.
I live in Oxford, not London, but will be in London visiting a friend in Fulham (I'll be getting the bus down to London - cheap and flexible tickets, shame about the traffic...). So I want to get the tube to Paddington, the train to Oxford, nip to my house to collect some luggage, then continue up to Penrith. This will be on a Friday.

On the way back, I want to travel from Penrith (actually probably Windermere, but I'll just get a single as far as Lancaster) to Macclesfield on a Sunday afternoon, then on the Monday get the 07:49 (Bournemouth train) down as far as Oxford, in time to be at work for 11! Which will leave me with the ticket down to London unused, and I'm sure it'll come in handy. I was going to double-check the validity of the return portion on the early morning train from Macclesfield when I bought the ticket, but the extract the the NFM posted above has confirmed it for me, I think.

Researching this, I found that a London-Penrith Offpeak return is actually cheaper than an Oxford-Penrith Offpeak return, which seems like madness! Which raises the question of whether buying the break-in-journey definitely allowed return from Ealing Broadway you mention would be a good option for a similar journey when I'm actually starting from Oxford (are you allowed to start your journey mid-way, or would I be "bending" the rules a bit?).

 

[yorkie]

If the ticket permits break of journey, then there is no doubt that you can start (or end) your journey "short".

If the ticket does not permit break of journey, then it's a can of worms.

The ticket from Oxford is overpriced, I agree it is crazy that it is more expensive than going all the way from London, but that's the UK rail industry for you.

I would consider getting the District line from Fulham to Ealing Broadway (change at Earl's Court) and get the 'Not London' ticket mentioned by John earlier, from there.

For the return, you just need a single from Windermere to Oxenholme (£4.30)

 

[StevieP]

Thanks all!

 

[janb]

Just to clear up 5F, the publicly available NFM doesn't present restrictions very well.

The stuff on Yorkies post upto where it starts listing BVS/BVR/SVS/SVR OFF-PEAK etc is the specific restriction for 5F. Anything below is the general off peak details which in the case of BoJ can be overridden by something in the specific restriction. The Manual displays this info much better and clearer, namely the general restrictions at the top of the page, then a list of all the specific below.

So Break of Journey is definately not allowed on the outward. It was introduced to stop people using Lancaster tickets to Preston etc.


General retailing info IMHO suggests that stopping/starting short would count as BoJ.

Break of journey, including starting or finishing a journey at an intermediate station between the origin and destination, is generally allowed as stated in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Break of Journey is not available:-

where the restriction code specifically restricts this;

 

[John @ home]

Just to clear up 5F, the publicly available NFM doesn't present restrictions very well.

The stuff on Yorkies post upto where it starts listing BVS/BVR/SVS/SVR OFF-PEAK etc is the specific restriction for 5F. Anything below is the general off peak details which in the case of BoJ can be overridden by something in the specific restriction. The Manual displays this info much better and clearer, namely the general restrictions at the top of the page, then a list of all the specific below.

Thanks for that helpful info, janb. I had wondered why the Restriction 5F text said

Ticket Code: BVR/SVR ...
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES (SEE NOTES BELOW)

when the words prohibiting break of this particular journey are actually some 3 dozen lines above in the public version of the document.

I ... will be ... visiting a friend in Fulham

So you won't have a season ticket or a period Travelcard. In that case, you will only be able to use an Ealing Broadway ticket with a train that stops there, ie. a slow train to Oxford.

I want to get the tube to Paddington, the train to Oxford, nip to my house to collect some luggage, then continue up to Penrith.

So yes - you do need to break your journey ie. leave the station. In the circumstances, I agree with yorkie - the £81.30 Ealing Broadway - Penrith route Not London ticket may well be your best bet.

I'll just get a single as far as Lancaster

If you're starting your return leg at Windermere instead of Penrith, you only need a £4.30 Windermere - Oxenholme single, not a £11.00 Windermere - Lancaster single.

On the way back, I want to travel ... to Macclesfield on a Sunday afternoon, then on the Monday get the 07:49 (Bournemouth train) down as far as Oxford, in time to be at work for 11!

Good. All of this is valid on the return leg of a Ealing Broadway - Penrith route Not London SVR.

Which will leave me with the ticket down to London unused, and I'm sure it'll come in handy.

Remember that only Oxford - Ealing Broadway will be unused, but the ticket can be excessed to travel via London for £2.25.

I found that a London-Penrith Offpeak return is actually cheaper than an Oxford-Penrith Offpeak return, which seems like madness!

If one was seeking a one-word description of the British railway fares system, madness would be a strong contender.

are you allowed to start your journey mid-way

The rule is

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

There can be no doubt that starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations is permitted for a ticket with restriction 2T, such as Ealing Broadway - Penrith route Not London. I think it is stretching the English language to say that it is clear in their notices and other publications that this is not permitted for a ticket with restriction 5F, such as London - Penrith, but that is probably the train companies' intention.

 

[Philip Brown]

If one was seeking a one-word description of the British railway fares system, madness would be a strong contender.

Batty would be my choice.

As I've said to you before in person, debates like this simply shouldn't even need to happen in the first place. A sliding cost per mile should be calculated whereby shorter journeys and very long journeys are below the average incremental increase per mile. No dirt cheap advance tickets or hugely expensive tickets on the day and the same price regardless of where the ticket is bought. This would encourage rail use as it would simplify the cost and promote trains to commuters and longer haul passengers.

Sorry, that's the end of my slightly off topic stance on my soap box. Back to the discussion in hand.

 

[General Zod]

Just something which got me thinking about the OP's return journey. He goes as far as Macclesfield on the Sunday and has an overnight stay. Could he stay here for a longer period if required , i.e. 2 -3 days ? And once he reaches Oxford and exits to go home I assume the ticket he holds is valid to Ealing Broadway until its expiry date ? So in effect you can have more than one BOJ on the return leg and the break can be longer than an overnight stay Is this correct ? I will be going up to Scotland quite shortly and on the return journey ( I will be travelling on an High Wycombe - Stirling Off Peak Return) I would like to BOJ in Alnwick, Darlington, York and Manchester and will be looking to spend a couple of nights in Alnwick , overnight in DAR and York and perhaps two nights in Manchester. You can see my concern when the ticket inspector comes along and sees that my ticket has been gripped several times on different dates.

z

 

[yorkie]

Just something which got me thinking about the OP's return journey. He goes as far as Macclesfield on the Sunday and has an overnight stay. Could he stay here for a longer period if required , i.e. 2 -3 days ?

Yes, as it's a return portion, valid for 1 month. He could not do that on the outward portion of an Off Peak ticket (It would be OK on the outward portion of an Anytime though)

And once he reaches Oxford and exits to go home I assume the ticket he holds is valid to Ealing Broadway until its expiry date ?

Yes.

So in effect you can have more than one BOJ on the return leg and the break can be longer than an overnight stay Is this correct ? I will be going up to Scotland quite shortly and on the return journey ( I will be travelling on an High Wycombe - Stirling Off Peak Return) I would like to BOJ in Alnwick, Darlington, York and Manchester and will be looking to spend a couple of nights in Alnwick , overnight in DAR and York and perhaps two nights in Manchester. You can see my concern when the ticket inspector comes along and sees that my ticket has been gripped several times on different dates.

z

Yes, it is valid, and if a guard asks you which trains you have caught you can satisfy any concerns he/she may have by informing them.

Optionally, you could obtain reservations in advance (if convenient & appropriate) and present the reservation coupons along with a copy of your itinerary to any guards who query it.

 

[StevieP]

So you won't have a season ticket or a period Travelcard.

Correct - sorry for not making that clear earlier (I do have a Network railcard, but that's useless here: unless there's something fiendishly complicated with split tickets, of course...)

In that case, you will only be able to use an Ealing Broadway ticket with a train that stops there, ie. a slow train to Oxford.So yes - you do need to break your journey ie. leave the station. In the circumstances, I agree with yorkie - the £81.30 Ealing Broadway - Penrith route Not London ticket may well be your best bet.

Thanks for suggesting that ticket - bought it today, as I was passing the station. I'll change at Slough to a fast train, so it shouldn't take too much longer.

As an aside, I bought the ticket before checking this forum, and so hadn't seen your confirmation that it would be valid for what I wanted to do on the return leg. The response (at the information desk, Oxford station): Offpeak isn't valid before 9:30am. Full stop. I knew my original ticket would've been fine on the 07:49, so I persisted: he conceded that some day returns are valid from 9am... When it became clear I wasn't going to leave it at that, he eventually looked it up, and, of course, confirmed its validity. To be fair to the guy, he was pretty gracious about being wrong, and not too grumpy about looking it up when I insisted, but it's still not what you'd hope for from the information desk... Though I bet if I'd worked for the railway for 30 or 40 years (he was old enough), I'd be pretty annoyed at having to use a computer to work out if tickets are valid or not.

 

[Greenback]

I do wish that staff would get into the habit of looking up validity codes each and every time. The restrictions are now so compelx that no one can have memorised every single one, and it's simply not the case that there is a blanket ban on all types of tickets before a certain time.