Break of Journey queries

[MetroPleb]

Hello all
Couple of questions about an upcoming trip that I hope someone can clarify.

1) Singular / Plural:

Regarding Breaks of Journey in general on National Rail services - the quotes from TOCs and on posts here always say ".. a break .." is permitted - that is "a" singular and "break" with no "s".

In practice, can you break more than once? In theory, could you get off at every single station and reboard the next valid service, as long as you have stayed on route, not doubled back and obeyed other restrictions (eg TOC only / off-peak etc)?

In particular, I have a Super Off-Peak return, LM only, SOT-London Terminals. I was thinking of making the most of the stopping service on the Return leg by making brief visits to Watford, Milton Keynes, Rugby etc - places I have never been to and am unlikely to visit for any other reason soon.

(Any locals who want to try to persuade / dissuade me on the merits of a hour in Nuneaton / half-hour in Tring etc, are welcome to try! I was thinking Bletchley Park, but it's partly closed right now)


2) HS1 / Stratford International

Just to explore the network, I was also thinking of getting a London Terminals - Gravesend day return, valid +HS - going out "slow" via London Bridge and coming back "fast". Then I need to get off at SFA, visit the Olympic Park, and return from SFA to STP.

Would this be permitted, both in theory - that SFA does not count as a "Terminal" and Southeastern HS allow BoJ - and in practice - are there barriers which would get confused?



The rest of my London exploration will be with Travelcards or Oyster... which gives me a headache :-? although I've been thoroughly reading up on it! (Thanks Mike at Oyster-Rail)

 

[SS4]

1. • Subject to ticket restrictions you can break your journey as many times as you like en route.
   • However, the LM only super off peak forbids Break of Journey (although how enforceable this will be is open to question since IMO they don't make it clear as per condition 16 of the NRCOC
   • It does give an easement permitting travel on the 1829 EUS-CRE
     
2. • Yes. That would be considered a break of journey which is allowed
   • If you plan on travelling slow outbound it should be cheaper to excess the return portion to +HS.
   • Barriers usually get confused so show it to someone manning the gate

 

[MetroPleb]

Thanks for the speedy reply, which clears up most things...

However, I'm confused about one point:

>the LM only super off peak forbids Break of Journey

I did stress Return leg, and these are the quoted conditions:

Super Off-Peak Return
A break of journey is allowed on the outward portion unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code and is allowed on the return portion of your ticket.

... so only applies restrictions to the outward leg...?

 

[SS4]

Thanks for the speedy reply, which clears up most things...

However, I'm confused about one point:

>the LM only super off peak forbids Break of Journey

I did stress Return leg, and these are the quoted conditions:

Super Off-Peak Return
A break of journey is allowed on the outward portion unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code and is allowed on the return portion of your ticket.

... so only applies restrictions to the outward leg...?

Hence why I have my reservations about how enforceable it actually is. Once I get the laptop up and running I'll update with the avantix text
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Avantix Code

Restriction : LK
MONDAYS to FRIDAYS:

Not valid for travel on London
Midland services timed to
ARRIVE London Terminals before
1300.

Not valid for travel on
northbound London Midland
services timed to DEPART
London Terminals or any other
station, before 1030.

Not valid for travel on London
Midland services timed to
DEPART any station between
1630 and 1930 in either
direction (except for the 1829
London Euston to Crewe service
) unless a connecting
service is being used to
complete a journey begun at a
valid time.

Break of journey is not
permitted except to change
trains at an intermediate
station or to access station
facilities.

SATURDAYS, SUNDAYS and BANK
HOLIDAYS:
By any London Midland train.

Break of journey is not
permitted except to change
trains at an intermediate
station or to access station
facilities.
SSS/SSR/OPS/OPR/SOP
SUPER OFF-PEAK

Ticket Code: OPS/SSS
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: SUPER OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: SINGLE
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Journey: YES
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Refunds: See 'Refunds' section

Ticket Code: SOP/OPR/SSR
Ticket Class: STANDARD
Ticket Name: SUPER OFF-PEAK
Single/Return: RETURN
Out Validity:-
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Rtn Validity:-
Day - WITHIN ONE
______________ CALENDAR MONTH
Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES
Pre-Booking Requirement: NONE
Reservations Compulsory: NO
Child Discount: YES
Railcard Discount: YES
Refunds: See 'Refunds' Section

Group discounts SSS/SSR YES
______________SOP/OPS/OPR___NO

Outward/Single/Return Travel
Available any day.

Time restrictions are
indicated by a restriction
shown against the ticket's
restriction code.

BREAK OF JOURNEY
Break of journey is allowed on
the OUTWARD portion of
Super Off-Peak tickets unless
otherwise indicated by a
restriction shown against the
ticket's Restriction Code,
and in all cases on the RETURN
portion of Super Off-Peak
return tickets.

Super Off-Peak Singles and the
outward portion of Super
Off-Peak Returns are valid for
travel on the date shown on
the ticket. Where a passenger
wishes to stop overnight or
the journey cannot be
completed within one_day,
break of journey for an
overnight stay is allowed.
Where a journey continues into
the next day, travel must
resume before 1200 and any
relevant time restrictions
apply (except where regarded
as an unbroken continuation of
the previous days' travel
where the first connection of
the day may be taken). No
further break of_journey is
allowed except for the
purposes of changing trains.
Please note that break of
journey is not permitted on
some journeys, as detailed in
in the ticket restrictions.

Return portions of Super Off-
Peak Return tickets are valid
for travel until 0230_on the
day following the last day of
validity (i.e. one calendar
month from the outward
journey). If a passenger is
still travelling at 0230, they
may stay on the train to
complete that part of the
journey but no further break
of journey is allowed and all
travel must be completed by
1200.

Note: Cross London transfers
will only be accepted by
London Underground on the date
shown on the ticket (or last
day of validity for Super
Off-Peak Returns) and until
0429 the following day.

TICKET INFORMATION:
Super Off-Peak tickets are not
valid when the journey is
affected by a restriction
shown against the ticket's
restriction code.

Tickets with a 'maltese cross'
shown in the route description
allow transfer across London
on London Underground,
Docklands Light Railway or
First Capital Connect
(Thameslink route) services
appropriate to the route of
the through journey being
made.

EASEMENTS:
Any local restriction easement
can be found in the Easements
section - to view
Easements introduction.

NETWORK AREA:
The London & South East
Network Area is shown in the
London Area Fares section_-
LONDON & South East area map.

Super Off-Peak tickets issued
for journeys commencing WITHIN
the Network Area to
destinations outside the
Network Area with travel via
London are valid by any train
to London to connect with
trains from London.

Super Off-Peak tickets issued
for journeys commencing
OUTSIDE the Network Area for
travel via London, take the
restrictions from the origin
station to London and return.
Unless shown otherwise on the
following pages, they are
unrestricted between London
and the destination station
and return.

SELLING an SUPER OFF-PEAK
TICKET.
Customers should be told of
any restrictions which may
affect any part of their
journey.

Where available, an
information card giving
ticket validity details should
be given out with each Super
Off-Peak ticket.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the speedy reply, which clears up most things...

However, I'm confused about one point:

>the LM only super off peak forbids Break of Journey

I did stress Return leg, and these are the quoted conditions:

Super Off-Peak Return
A break of journey is allowed on the outward portion unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code and is allowed on the return portion of your ticket.

... so only applies restrictions to the outward leg...?

I do not believe that LM are permitted to go against this. It's clearly a mistake by LM. As LM staff involved in revenue read this forum I can only hope they will fix it. You could also write to LM and ask if this is a mistake, as it does not adhere to the general rule. If any one company is allowed to go against it then it makes our so-called "simple" system even less "simple" and makes a mockery of the claim that "Ticket terms and conditions are now the same across all train companies nationwide, so you know exactly where you stand."

 

[MetroPleb]

Thanks, that would seem to confirm it, your text has the same:

"BREAK OF JOURNEY ... and in all cases on the RETURN portion of Super Off-Peak return tickets. "

But still confused as to where this Return restriction is coming from then, if the published conditions and Avantix agree... where have you seen it?

 

[MarkyMarkD]

What about the bit which says:

Break of Jrny: (OUT) YES
(RTN) YES

Doesn't that make the wording contradictory?

 

[SS4]

Thanks, that would seem to confirm it, your text has the same:

"BREAK OF JOURNEY ... and in all cases on the RETURN portion of Super Off-Peak return tickets. "

But still confused as to where this Return restriction is coming from then, if the published conditions and Avantix agree... where have you seen it?

Do you mean disagree? The only place I've seen this restriction is in Avantix and nobody sensible would consider it public.

As yorkie says it's an LM mistake and break of journey should be allowed

 

[First class]

Edit: I'll revisit my reply when I investigate further. The restriction was last revised on 20/01/2012 though.

GUYS:

Restriction LK has been screwed up when entered into FRPS and subsequently The Manual and Avantix. LK was originally written for the OPS only, and another restriction code was supposed to be created for OPR, but this never happened. Email sent to relevant person, but May 2012 is the next NFM.

BoJ is permitted on the return leg ONLY.

 

[MetroPleb]

Thanks LM, that's clarified further.

SS4 - yes, I think we all agree that there has been a mistake somewhere, it's just that I don't see it on the Avantix text you posted, which is the same as the published T&Cs here:

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/ticketterms/show?&ticketTypeCode=OPR&ticketRestriction=LK

http://nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/OPR_LK.pdf

Restriction LK forbids BoJ. But under the Super OffPeak conditions, any restriction only applies to the Outward leg, and the Return is unrestricted. I can't see anywhere in the Avantix text that is says "restrictions apply to both legs", or "to the Return leg" - in fact quite the opposite - it says:

"Break of journey is allowed on the OUTWARD portion of Super Off-Peak tickets unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the
ticket's Restriction Code".
and
" in all cases on the RETURN"

In summary as LM says, LK is for Outward or Single, and there's nothing for Return

 

[SS4]

I put the part about breaking your journey in bold (although further down it says the BoJ is permitted ) .The second like (the code) implies, but doesn't state, that BoJ isn't permitted on either leg. Either way I'd say you'll be fine with breaking your journey

I must also extend my thanks to LM to clarifying the situation