Break of journey on diversion

[AlbertBeale]

I'd like to ask the experts for their thoughts on the following scenario.

1. I have a ticket which is valid for unlimited breaks of journey on the day of validity.
2. There is engineering work on part of the route I would normally use, but there are some direct trains on a diversion route (thus avoiding replacement buses etc).
3. My ticket would not normally be valid on the diversion route.
4. There are places on the diversion route to which tickets from my origin would cost more than the price for my whole journey.

My question - does the break-of-journey validity of my ticket mean that I could stop off somewhere on the diversion route? My assumption is that the inherent break-of-journey validity is unaffected by (3) and (4) above, given the situation of direct trains being available on that route that day.

Furthermore, assuming I can break my journey, would I be required to resume it on one of the (infrequent) diverted trains, or could I, at that stage, use any other service which would cover the final leg of my journey (via the route the diverted trains are using)? [I ask this on the basis that I might still want to complete my journey, and might not - ahem - just be using this situation to get a day out at a place on the diversion route which would under normal circumstances cost me rather more to get to...]

Thanks in advance for your prompt help.

 

[Vexed]

I belive the position is that if the only reason the route you take is valid is due to there being a direct train, break of journey is not allowed. Otherwise this would introduce loopholes on loop services.

However, there may be a temporary easement for the engineering work which makes the route a permitted route where break of journey would apply as if you were travelling along the "normal" permitted route.

would I be required to resume it on one of the (infrequent) diverted trains, or could I, at that stage, use any other service which would cover the final leg of my journey

If a temporary easement has been added to make it a permitted route then you can use any service (subject to other ticket restrictions of course eg operator restrictions).

You may also want to consider using TrainSplit/RailUK Tickets to make an itinerary which forces a change at the station you want to go to, and add however many hours of extra change time you need. A multi hour change won't strictly allow break of journey but will give you an itineary for the services you need.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I belive the position is that if the only reason the route you take is valid is due to there being a direct train, break of journey is not allowed. Otherwise this would introduce loopholes on loop services.

However, there may be a temporary easement for the engineering work which makes the route a permitted route where break of journey would apply as if you were travelling along the "normal" permitted route.


If a temporary easement has been added to make it a permitted route then you can use any service (subject to other ticket restrictions of course eg operator restrictions).

You may also want to consider using TrainSplit/RailUK Tickets to make an itinerary which forces a change at the station you want to go to, and add however many hours of extra change time you need. A multi hour change won't strictly allow break of journey but will give you an itineary for the services you need.

Hmmm - thanks for this. Not the answer I was hoping for...

I've tried adding a "change or stop at" option, and the name of my potential stop-off station, in the forum's ticket site; it then ceases to offer me any ticket at all for the journey (though the direct-via-the-diversion services show up if I don't add that). So maybe that means there's no easement, and break of journey is not strictly allowed; is there any simple way to look up easements? (Of course I might easily manage to get out of, and back into, the station concerned anyway, just by flashing an appropriate piece of orange and white card, with the staff not stopping to consider the allowability or not of a break of journey under the specific circumstances. It's a route, and type of ticket, where breaks would be quite normal. But...

 

[Watershed]

I'd like to ask the experts for their thoughts on the following scenario.

1. I have a ticket which is valid for unlimited breaks of journey on the day of validity.
2. There is engineering work on part of the route I would normally use, but there are some direct trains on a diversion route (thus avoiding replacement buses etc).
3. My ticket would not normally be valid on the diversion route.
4. There are places on the diversion route to which tickets from my origin would cost more than the price for my whole journey.

My question - does the break-of-journey validity of my ticket mean that I could stop off somewhere on the diversion route? My assumption is that the inherent break-of-journey validity is unaffected by (3) and (4) above, given the situation of direct trains being available on that route that day.

Furthermore, assuming I can break my journey, would I be required to resume it on one of the (infrequent) diverted trains, or could I, at that stage, use any other service which would cover the final leg of my journey (via the route the diverted trains are using)? [I ask this on the basis that I might still want to complete my journey, and might not - ahem - just be using this situation to get a day out at a place on the diversion route which would under normal circumstances cost me rather more to get to...]

Thanks in advance for your prompt help.

If your ticket is only valid on the diverted route by virtue of you using a direct train (and not because of it being a mapped route, or within 3 miles of the shortest route), you can't break your journey intermediately.

The NRCoT explicitly covers this situation, using the example of circular trains:

Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. However, this may not be the case with some through services that take an indirect route. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) before the destination shown on the Ticket.
INFORMATION: For example, where a train service makes a circular journey, you may travel either way to the destination on your Ticket.
However, you would not normally be allowed to get off at an intermediate station where the fare would have been higher.

 

[AlbertBeale]

If your ticket is only valid on the diverted route by virtue of you using a direct train (and not because of it being a mapped route, or within 3 miles of the shortest route), you can't break your journey intermediately.

The NRCoT explicitly covers this situation, using the example of circular trains:

Thanks so much for that. A subsidiary question - if the fact that there are direct trains during the engineering blockade makes the journey allowable, does that strictly only apply to the direct trains themselves? This example is a journey with - normally - half a dozen or more trains an hour when the normal line is open, but only one an hour is being sent via the diversion. However the whole of the diversion route has other trains besides that hourly train, though these would require a change en route. So would it be allowable to make the journey on that route with a change, though not breaking the journey or stopping short?

I wonder, because you say "if your ticket is only valid" because of being on a direct train (I understand that in the case of a circuitous journey when direct services also exist). But is that necessarily the only reason here? Might "the system" have made provision for validity (during the closure) via that circuitous route on (a combination of) other services going that way round, as well as on the occasional direct train? And if so, how would one find out definitively? (And how is this likely to be interpreted in practice anyway?)

Thanks.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks so much for that. A subsidiary question - if the fact that there are direct trains during the engineering blockade makes the journey allowable, does that strictly only apply to the direct trains themselves?

Yes, the provision only applies if you take a direct train from the printed origin to the printed destination shown on your ticket. As soon as a change is involved you are no longer taking a direct train so you must rely on it being a mapped or shortest (within 3 miles) route.

This example is a journey with - normally - half a dozen or more trains an hour when the normal line is open, but only one an hour is being sent via the diversion. However the whole of the diversion route has other trains besides that hourly train, though these would require a change en route. So would it be allowable to make the journey on that route with a change, though not breaking the journey or stopping short?

No, because you would no longer be using a direct train anymore. The service frequency (and convenience, or otherwise) doesn't change the permitted routes.

I wonder, because you say "if your ticket is only valid" because of being on a direct train (I understand that in the case of a circuitous journey when direct services also exist). But is that necessarily the only reason here? Might "the system" have made provision for validity (during the closure) via that circuitous route on (a combination of) other services going that way round, as well as on the occasional direct train? And if so, how would one find out definitively? (And how is this likely to be interpreted in practice anyway?)

Thanks.

Sometimes there are easements for engineering work; if so, it would be listed in the list published by the RDG. It is down to the affected TOC(s) to ask for a temporary easement to be added though, and some TOCs are better than others at doing this.

GWR and SWR, for instance, are pretty decent at it. As are most of the long distance operators (they have to be when there are unusual diversions). But most of the suburban and regional TOCs don't really seem to understand the importance of easements. It requires a degree of collaboration between the timetable planning and revenue departments in TOCs, which is often lacking.