Brake vehicles

[Bletchleyite]

Reading the thread about issues with the Sleeper, it occurred to me that UIC vehicles in mainland Europe always have a handbrake in every coach (a big obvious wheel by the doors) and have no dedicated brake or guard's vehicle - they just use a compartment or row of seats in the main saloon in most cases.

Why did the UK go a different way with this and have separate brake vehicles?

 

[DarloRich]

Why did the UK go a different way with this and have separate brake vehicles?

no idea but I do quite like a half brake carriage. Sad.

 

[dazzler]

no idea but I do quite like a half brake carriage. Sad.

So do I! Especially the day a dozen of us were at Derby with bikes to get a train to York and had *loads* of space in the Mk2f BSO to pop us bikes. Mind you, I once got the sleeper from Glasgow to Euston (about 1992) and had an entire BG to play with...

Going across the Pennines in the Cl 45 & 47 era with a BG on the train didn't need pre-booking either!

 

[John Webb]

Reading the thread about issues with the Sleeper, it occurred to me that UIC vehicles in mainland Europe always have a handbrake in every coach (a big obvious wheel by the doors) and have no dedicated brake or guard's vehicle - they just use a compartment or row of seats in the main saloon in most cases.

Why did the UK go a different way with this and have separate brake vehicles?

Possibly because in the early days of the railway the only brakes on a train, besides any on the loco, were worked by guards in (or even on) specific coaches - these were eventually what became brake or guard's vehicles where the guard could work undistracted by the public?

 

[JonathanP]

On continental Europe it is still common, mostly in night train traffic, to have portions of a train as small as a single coach which operate as 'through coaches', and may be detached from one train and left sitting in a siding for some time before being reattached to another train for the next leg of the journey. This would presumably not be possible without a handbrake on the coach.

This is just a guess, but in addition there is a set of standards called "Regolamento Internazionale delle Carrozze"(RIC) which allows enables compliant rolling stock to be used throughout Europe without needing country-specific approval. I wouldn't be surrprised if this specifies that a coach used in international traffic has to have a handbrake.

 

[dk1]

Wasn't it also a condition that all railway services in the UK had to have secure accommodation for the carriage of mail.

 

[dazzler]

On continental Europe it is still common, mostly in night train traffic, to have portions of a train as small as a single coach which operate as 'through coaches', and may be detached from one train and left sitting in a siding for some time before being reattached to another train for the next leg of the journey. This would presumably not be possible without a handbrake on the coach.

Back in the day, the couchette coach from Calais to Innsbruck (which was just the one coach - in summer, at least!) ran from Calais to Basel SNCF in a train along with the couple of couchette coaches for Milano Centrale and a load of SNCF day coaches for Basel. At Basel, the Innsbruck coach was shunted around both the SNCF and SBB stations - initially with the Milano coaches, then on its own - being left in the platform for some time on its own, it would have needed some form of handbrake. In the course of its perambulations, it seemed to visit pretty much every platform in both Basel SNCF and SBB stations as the platforms were required for various trains - some of them twice. Eventually, it acquired enough extra SBB and DB coaches to constitute a proper train and was sent on its merry way to Innsbruck.

Wasn't it also a condition that all railway services in the UK had to have secure accommodation for the carriage of mail.

I believe this was so. I did on many occasions have to put my bike in a van shared with a large pile of mailbags. At some point in the 80's, the sliding "gate" between the luggage area and the corridor past it acquired a security lock which could only be opened with a special key, the idea being to try to ensure the security of the Royal Mail. If you needed to make a quick change en-route, you just hoped that either the guard was in the van at the station, or the platform was on the side away from the corridor!

 

[edwin_m]

On continental Europe it is still common, mostly in night train traffic, to have portions of a train as small as a single coach which operate as 'through coaches', and may be detached from one train and left sitting in a siding for some time before being reattached to another train for the next leg of the journey. This would presumably not be possible without a handbrake on the coach.

This is just a guess, but in addition there is a set of standards called "Regolamento Internazionale delle Carrozze"(RIC) which allows enables compliant rolling stock to be used throughout Europe without needing country-specific approval. I wouldn't be surrprised if this specifies that a coach used in international traffic has to have a handbrake.

There used to be trains in Britain that did that too, notably the Atlantic Coach Express. This ran from Waterloo to multiple West Country destinations and some portions were no more than a single coach. This was probably the main reason for the brake composite, providing both classes and guard/luggage in a single coach. Even though the van area on those coaches was smaller than on other brake vehicles, the Continental approach of having the brake handle in a cupboard would have increased the passenger accommodation significantly (detached coaches could have been coupled to other coaches to provide guard's accommodation on the local train).

 

[Millisle]

The purpose of a passenger brake vehicle on a train that is obviously fully fitted is entirely different from that on an unfitted freight. The guard's compartment contains a gauge that repeats that brake pressure is correct and an emergency brake valve on the continuous air or vacuum brake as applicable.

 

[edwin_m]

The purpose of a passenger brake vehicle on a train that is obviously fully fitted is entirely different from that on an unfitted freight. The guard's compartment contains a gauge that repeats that brake pressure is correct and an emergency brake valve on the continuous air or vacuum brake as applicable.

True, but the most important thing it contains is a mechanical handbrake. If the train is left not attached to a working locomotive, the air or vacuum brakes will leak off after a couple of hours (less if the system is faulty) and the train will be left unbraked unless secured by one or more handbrakes. Hence every loco-hauled passenger train must contain a brake coach, and if for any reason (British) passenger stock is left without a locomotive or brake coach then it must be secured with chocks. Continental passenger stock and all freight wagons have a handbrake on every vehicle.

 

[Millisle]

My basic point was that in the ordinary operation of a passenger train the guard is not assisting with a handbrake as on an unfitted freight train, as seemed the implied assumption in some posts.
My understanding of the use of the parking brake and where applicable scotches on vehicles with automatic continuous brakes was as largely a case of belt and braces in case there is an unusual failure such as obstruction of the pipe. As air pressure/vacuum is being generated by the engine to keep the brakes off and allow the train to move, loss of it would normally lock the brakes on, as when vehicles are parked. Use of the handbrake is essential on engines themselves using direct simple brakes. I am happy to be corrected if this is wrong.

 

[Tomnick]

My basic point was that in the ordinary operation of a passenger train the guard is not assisting with a handbrake as on an unfitted freight train, as seemed the implied assumption in some posts.
My understanding of the use of the parking brake and where applicable scotches on vehicles with automatic continuous brakes was as largely a case of belt and braces in case there is an unusual failure such as obstruction of the pipe. As air pressure/vacuum is being generated by the engine to keep the brakes off and allow the train to move, loss of it would normally lock the brakes on, as when vehicles are parked. Use of the handbrake is essential on engines themselves using direct simple brakes. I am happy to be corrected if this is wrong.

When the air pressure/vacuum in the train pipe is destroyed or reduced, the brake force is generated by the differential between that pressure in one chamber and greater air pressure or vacuum in another chamber, the latter chamber being 'recharged' from the train pipe every time the brakes are released. If the train's left for any period of time, the air pressure (or vacuum) holding the brakes on will gradually leak off until the differential between the two chambers is reduced to the point that the brake force is insufficient to hold the train.

 

[Millisle]

When the air pressure/vacuum in the train pipe is destroyed or reduced, the brake force is generated by the differential between that pressure in one chamber and greater air pressure or vacuum in another chamber, the latter chamber being 'recharged' from the train pipe every time the brakes are released. If the train's left for any period of time, the air pressure (or vacuum) holding the brakes on will gradually leak off until the differential between the two chambers is reduced to the point that the brake force is insufficient to hold the train.

Very clear explanation. Thank you. I'm never too old to learn.

 

[Tomnick]

Very clear explanation. Thank you. I'm never too old to learn.

No problem - it's a pretty fascinating subject when you look into it a bit more!

 

[zn1]

Since the movement of local parcels, small livestock , local mail between sorting offices, newspapers , has stopped to go by road, a large or half brake vehicle is no longer needed, the space can be reused to get bums on seats..

.I recall the 4 VEP brake van rebuilds during Code 1s at eastleigh when the brake van was reduced by over half to passenger...

if the area is redundant and not used. get some seats in there and get more punters in.

the 319-322 all had a secured parcels area ..now redundant..once Royal Mail and Red Star finished..its a shame..


Now in todays Modern braking systems - i am wondering why Spring loaded brakes are not used on rail vehicles, the system will always fail safe, as soon as the pressure drops the brakes go on and stay on until air pressure is restored. Im sure road rail plant fitted with air braking now have the spring brake system fitted.

It works on HGV's and is tried and tested,

so why not Main line railway stock and locos ?

if im wrong i apologise

 

[Tomnick]

Now in todays Modern braking systems - i am wondering why Spring loaded brakes are not used on rail vehicles, the system will always fail safe, as soon as the pressure drops the brakes go on and stay on until air pressure is restored. Im sure road rail plant fitted with air braking now have the spring brake system fitted.

It is used on many vehicles nowadays, to some extent at least. Second generation DMUs (so 1980s onwards) have spring-applied parking brakes that are held off by main res pressure. You need some way of isolating the braking system on individual vehicles though, and pinning back springs isn't really ideal (it's only necessary on those DMUs, at least, if there's no main res air at all on that vehicle), which presumably is why they're not more widespread yet - air braking systems for loco-hauled trains still don't necessarily require a constant supply of air pressure so spring-loaded brakes could be a pain if the braking system had to be isolated on that vehicle.

 

[nat67]

Reading the thread about issues with the Sleeper, it occurred to me that UIC vehicles in mainland Europe always have a handbrake in every coach (a big obvious wheel by the doors) and have no dedicated brake or guard's vehicle - they just use a compartment or row of seats in the main saloon in most cases.

Why did the UK go a different way with this and have separate brake vehicles?

On the sleeper today there is still the MK2 half brake with the sit up's. But why did the MK5 spec not in tail this idea?

 

[zn1]

understand what you say Tomnick, with regard to isolating the brakes on one vehicle in a rake , it could well be a pain.and winding the offending brake cylinders back off could be a bit of a pain, though not impossible depending on the accessibility in the Bogie frame,

 

[edwin_m]

I think a spring-applied brake would need a pretty powerful spring to be able to provide the brake force needed to stop a moving train. A parking brake needs much less force.

I believe Underground trains can actually be dragged with the parking brake on, which means the brake doesn't have to be isolated for rescue. If the speeds are low enough it may also mean the parking brake will bring it to a stop if the coupling separates.

 

[37057]

understand what you say Tomnick, with regard to isolating the brakes on one vehicle in a rake , it could well be a pain.and winding the offending brake cylinders back off could be a bit of a pain, though not impossible depending on the accessibility in the Bogie frame,

There are 'pull to release' mechanisms out there. Desiros have it with a tool, usually in the emergency coupler cupboard for releasing them.

Fairly easy to do, usually checked on exam and when moving over the lathe...and recently when a pair of horses detached a few air feed pipes on a pair of units...

 

[Tomnick]

I think a spring-applied brake would need a pretty powerful spring to be able to provide the brake force needed to stop a moving train. A parking brake needs much less force.

I believe Underground trains can actually be dragged with the parking brake on, which means the brake doesn't have to be isolated for rescue. If the speeds are low enough it may also mean the parking brake will bring it to a stop if the coupling separates.

That's broadly the principle with parking brakes on the national network. You can certainly move a train that's being held with the parking brake alone - an important consideration when attempting to couple. Whether a train has deliberately been dragged in that state to clear the line, I don't know. When moving a vehicle with the brakes isolated though (if it's on the end of the train, with no bar coupling to the adjacent vehicle etc.), having someone ready to apply the parking brake if the train comes apart is part of the procedure outlined in the Rule Book, presumably on the basis that it'll stop it from the maximum speed of 5mph.

There are 'pull to release' mechanisms out there. Desiros have it with a tool, usually in the emergency coupler cupboard for releasing them.

Fairly easy to do, usually checked on exam and when moving over the lathe...and recently when a pair of horses detached a few air feed pipes on a pair of units...

I'm fairly sure that's (broadly) how you do it on Sprinters too - you might not even need a tool, just pulling a pin if I recall correctly?