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Bradford Southern Gateway Station

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MarkyT

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I think
I love the fact that Bradford Council’s own preferred location has more negatives than positives. Utterly inept.
I think people are getting obsessed with over-exaggerated disadvantages of terminal stations through which some service routes have to reverse partway along a journey. Yes, a through station has some advantages over that, but in the age of rolling stock with cabs at both ends and no need to attach or detach motive power, reversals can be accomplished very quickly, especially if there's a relief driver waiting at the outer end of the train to take over, and (importantly) the trains are designed and built to be able to quickly and reliably hand over cab control without complete shutdown and restart etc. Throat junction conflict can be mitigated dramatically by means of a flyover as proposed for the surface dead-end terminal proposed for HS2/NPR (see
for concept). If a through station costs vastly more than a stub terminus, destroys major tracts of the city centre, disrupts rail or other transport significantly during construction, or has to be moved miles out of the centre to avoid all these or even fit physically at all, then the mitigated slight disadvantages of the stub terminal must offer a better BCR and a better transport facility from a user point of view. Yeah great that huge new station on the outskirts is perfectly honed for operational efficiency. Shame it's Sunday evening and the bus going there is only once an hour, if it turns up. It's sad Andy Burnham became so fixated on the underground through station idea for Manchester. Yes that would be 'perfect' but the much cheaper and more easily constructed terminal with the flyover and modern train operations could be 'good enough'. Such a reversal point en route is also a perfect place for splitting and joining units, so for instance at Manchester, an incoming full-length HS2 train from London might spawn a half portion at the back reversing to Huddersfield, Halifax and Bradford. Going back to Bradford, at Interchange the throat junction form and signalling has been enhanced recently, but I can't see there's space for a flyover as proposed at Manchester. The service is never likely to be as intense at Bradford as envisaged for Piccadilly though, so the conflicts could and are being managed. There is also space around Interchange for additional terminal platforms if desired. The station might benefit from some significant pedestrian access and facility improvements, maybe a wide new landscaped walkway through the car parks next to the courts building towards the shopping center. I'm saying Interchange is good enough for any kind of service proposed unless they actually routed the new NPR mainline through Bradford city centre which I think is highly unlikely. The idea to move calls by regional trains out of the city centre to St James strikes me as a mistake, if implemented, almost as monumental as Beograd Centar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgrade_Centre_railway_station.
 
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Meerkat

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The NN station is to get to Manchester via Huddersfield. Are they are planning on sending some Leeds-Manchester via Bradford and Huddersfield, are there enough paths for that without a new fast Bradford-Leeds line?
If they aren’t then are there paths for Bradford-Huddersfield-Manchester as well as Leeds-Huddersfiel-Manchester?
If it’s not a through train then there seems little gain in a through station.
 

YorksLad12

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The NN station is to get to Manchester via Huddersfield. Are they are planning on sending some Leeds-Manchester via Bradford and Huddersfield, are there enough paths for that without a new fast Bradford-Leeds line?
If they aren’t then are there paths for Bradford-Huddersfield-Manchester as well as Leeds-Huddersfiel-Manchester?
If it’s not a through train then there seems little gain in a through station.
You make it sound as if there's some sort of plan, as opposed to some random bits thrown together - which they've pretty much admitted.

For me, it's a case of a tram (Mass Transit) from Leeds to Bradford first to allow Bramley to close and trains to be speeded up (slightly). If money was no object I'd rebuild Exchange, and cut the corner from Laisterdyke, which would shave a few more minutes off. The real fun is in getting a new line built to avoid Halifax and Brighouse... I might have misread, but I thought it said Bradford to Huddersfield in 12 minutes, which I assume is a typo. 22 minutes would be possible (with a new line, and an expensive tunnel).
 

MichaelTrains

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You make it sound as if there's some sort of plan, as opposed to some random bits thrown together - which they've pretty much admitted.

For me, it's a case of a tram (Mass Transit) from Leeds to Bradford first to allow Bramley to close and trains to be speeded up (slightly). If money was no object I'd rebuild Exchange, and cut the corner from Laisterdyke, which would shave a few more minutes off. The real fun is in getting a new line built to avoid Halifax and Brighouse... I might have misread, but I thought it said Bradford to Huddersfield in 12 minutes, which I assume is a typo. 22 minutes would be possible (with a new line, and an expensive tunnel).

Trams from Leeds to Bradford are not the answer.

There needs to be a strategic workable plan the finally delivers on Bradford being properly connected to the rail network.

If they are serious about this they should go with the original Hinchliffe plan which was for an underground station built on the corner of the Broadway shopping centre using part of the old T&A building which is now vacant.

Technically an Exchange Mark 2.
 

Halifaxlad

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The NN station is to get to Manchester via Huddersfield. Are they are planning on sending some Leeds-Manchester via Bradford and Huddersfield, are there enough paths for that without a new fast Bradford-Leeds line?
If they aren’t then are there paths for Bradford-Huddersfield-Manchester as well as Leeds-Huddersfiel-Manchester?
If it’s not a through train then there seems little gain in a through station.
You make it sound as if there's some sort of plan, as opposed to some random bits thrown together - which they've pretty much admitted.

For me, it's a case of a tram (Mass Transit) from Leeds to Bradford first to allow Bramley to close and trains to be speeded up (slightly). If money was no object I'd rebuild Exchange, and cut the corner from Laisterdyke, which would shave a few more minutes off. The real fun is in getting a new line built to avoid Halifax and Brighouse... I might have misread, but I thought it said Bradford to Huddersfield in 12 minutes, which I assume is a typo. 22 minutes would be possible (with a new line, and an expensive tunnel).
There is a plan, its basically the fourth most expensive option of Northern Powerhouse Rail if you look at the technical annex. Which includes a new/reopened line between Bradford and Huddersfield I'll let you guys guess which one that is!
 

MichaelTrains

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The line that would go over a newly built viaduct over Huddersfield Road and then down into Brighouse? Bypassing the extra 10 minutes into Halifax and back?
 

Halifaxlad

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The line that would go over a newly built viaduct over Huddersfield Road and then down into Brighouse? Bypassing the extra 10 minutes into Halifax and back?
This will give you an indication of the route with some detours


According to the following article 'Bradford Council will decide where the station should be built.'

Which is interesting considering:

"He said the DfT will work with Bradford Council to “come up with options that will work”."

I do wonder if they will be any other options for either the station itself or how it fits into the rail network as the Bradford Council option is more suited for a North West to East chord rather than having the existing line to the Interchange bent round.
 
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Snow1964

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DfT has given £400,000 towards planning of new Bradford station

Rail passengers in Bradford will be connected to more jobs, education and business opportunities, thanks to the government’s commitment to deliver a new train station in the city.

The plan was first revealed last month as part of the government’s launch of Network North – a £36 billion long-term plan to improve the country’s transport across roads, buses and railways, through unprecedented levels of investment.

Today (14 November 2023), the Department for Transport is building on its promise of building a brand-new railway station in Bradford by providing £400,000 for the local authority to kickstart master planning on the project.

The work will consider how the new station can best support regeneration in the surrounding area and maximise its potential to create new homes, jobs and local economic growth – as well as significantly improving transport links and cutting journey times.

Once complete, the findings will form part of a wider business case for the project which will include details on the proposed location and delivery date for the station.

 

Bantamzen

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If they throw enough money at it, I'm sure they can create a justification for it... :rolleyes:
As I Bradfordian can I just say.... Oh for f.... sake....!!

£400K would go a fair way to improving the approaches to Forster Square (the work on a new on to the Interchange is underway), and coupled with a fair bit more could improve this station, and it's throughput no end. A "Gateway" station halfway up the hill out of the Interchange towards Leeds will neither improve links, nor will it regenerate the area unless First Bradford expand and have all their drivers use the trains instead of staff special buses. Honestly I can't wait for the next round of local / national elections, I want to grill local candidates on what exactly they think this will do for the city. In fact I'm going to ask if they've ever been in the area. I have, I used to work not to far from the site. To say its grim would be something of an underestimation, its gonna need a shed load more money just to scrape the rust and muck off the area, let alone rebuild it...

<Puts flat cap on, sets off t'pub in a huff to moan about it t'locals>
 

Bantamzen

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Maybe Im the only Bradfordian who welcomes and wants this new line and station to happen.
May I ask why? A station in an industrial area, some distance from the city centre & uphill doesn't exactly feel like the best use of money when we have two stations that need serious upgrading.
 

Arkeeos

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Is the only rationale behind this just that it would be nice to have a through station, It doesn't suddenly put Bradford on the mainline network.

I suppose this the issue of a deciding rail projects based on politicking instead of actual transport need.
 

Bantamzen

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A comment that applies to anywhere in Bradford
Just for info, this is the thread about the council's desire to build a new station somewhere in the St James Market area. The "I want to slag off Bradford" thread can be found over on Twitter, or X, or whatever the slagging off site calls itself this week.. ;)
 

xotGD

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Any new station needs to replace both existing stations in order to improve connectivity. All this does is increase the walking distance between two stations. No benefit to Airedale and Wharfedale folk wanting a quicker route to the Calder Valley and beyond. Indeed, a disbenefit.

Also a disbenefit to anyone currently using Interchange to travel to or from the city centre or to, er, Interchange with a bus.

The benefits are for people travelling from Hebden or Halifax into Leeds, who will have a quicker journey. So how is that good for Bradford?
 

Bantamzen

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Any new station needs to replace both existing stations in order to improve connectivity. All this does is increase the walking distance between two stations. No benefit to Airedale and Wharfedale folk wanting a quicker route to the Calder Valley and beyond. Indeed, a disbenefit.

Also a disbenefit to anyone currently using Interchange to travel to or from the city centre or to, er, Interchange with a bus.

The benefits are for people travelling from Hebden or Halifax into Leeds, who will have a quicker journey. So how is that good for Bradford?
Its a fair bet that those who dreamt this up have never been close to the area proposed. Had they done so they would have noted both it's distance from the city centre and the Interchange, as well as Forster Square. They would also have noted the incline the site is on, including the rail alignment. More recently Bradford Council have revived the idea as part of a regeneration plan for the area. But truthfully this is almost as much as a basket case as the NPR idea, because building a station there won't just magically attract the hundreds of millions investment pounds needed. And frankly even in the highly unlikely scenario where it did get built, it wouldn't need a Bradford avoiding spur.
 

Halish Railway

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The benefits are for people travelling from Hebden or Halifax into Leeds, who will have a quicker journey. So how is that good for Bradford?
I'd imagine that by removing through services from Interchange, the current station would be used for additional services that would terminate in Bradford, e.g. extending London to Leeds services to Bradford Interchange, as well as new fast Bradford to Manchester services, with the current Leeds to Manchester via Halifax services having additional stops added, the additional time added being offset by taking the hypothetical Bradford avoiding line. Having said that though I think to make such an arrangement work there'd have to be some form of frequent transport linking all three stations, e.g. a frequent free city bus or tramway which can later be extended to serve other destinations, with rail ticket acceptance onboard.

Regarding Airedale and Wharfedale to Caldervale passengers, in the future it may prove quicker to go via Leeds IF the Leeds to Manchester/Wigan via Brighouse services run non-stop from Leeds to Dewsbury, with the omitted stops being served by a second hourly Leeds to Huddersfield service, the capacity to run such services being provided four tracking Westtown to Huddersfield and grade-separating Thornhill Jn.
 

MichaelTrains

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Just looking at the journey times from this new Central station.

Leeds in 11 minutes.
Huddersfield in 13 minutes.
Manchester in 36 minutes.

Very impressive.
 

yoyothehobo

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Just looking at the journey times from this new Central station.

Leeds in 11 minutes.
Huddersfield in 13 minutes.
Manchester in 36 minutes.

Very impressive.
London in 37 minutes, Edinburgh in 45min, the moon in a little over an hour an a half
 

Neptune

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Just looking at the journey times from this new Central station.

Leeds in 11 minutes.
Huddersfield in 13 minutes.
Manchester in 36 minutes.

Very impressive.
Very unlikely too. I’m guessing these are a finger in the air non stop time. So much for connectivity.
London in 37 minutes, Edinburgh in 45min, the moon in a little over an hour an a half
Exactly how this whole scheme feels, pure fantasy to get a few votes.
 

yoyothehobo

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Considering the last mile and half into Leeds will always take you about 3.5 minutes, 7.5 minutes to do the rest of it non stop seems unlikely, especially as it then makes the service a lot lot worse for the people of Pudsey and Bramley.

Using 2019/2020 figures thats about 1.1million passenger journeys a year that would be made worse by this.
 

Bantamzen

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Allow me to correct that for you....

Just looking at the journey times from this new Central Out of town that nobody will use if it is ever built station.

Leeds in 11 minutes.
Huddersfield in 13 minutes.
Manchester in 36 minutes.

Very impressive.

In fact if those numbers were correct (which they won't be), you could be in Leeds quicker than walking to the Interchange from the proposed site (16 mins).
 

Halifaxlad

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Whatever time is ac
Just looking at the journey times from this new Central station.

Leeds in 11 minutes.
Huddersfield in 13 minutes.
Manchester in 36 minutes.

Very impressive.

This new station won't make much of a difference as all line improvements are separate from this new station!
 

Arkeeos

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Just looking at the journey times from this new Central station.

Leeds in 11 minutes.
Huddersfield in 13 minutes.
Manchester in 36 minutes.

Very impressive.
It’s amazing what happens when you just make stuff up. The government couldn’t get journey times right in the IRP, which was in development for significantly longer than network north, I have zero faith that any of those journey times are real.
 

thejuggler

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A slightly technical query to try and understand railway planning and funding. I understand railway investment is undertaken in 5 year cost periods, but very few major projects are conceived and delivered within 5 years.

How long would this take if it was a smooth run through each GRIP stage? Do projects run across cost periods?

Is the £400k part of CP7 running from 2024-29, or outside of it?

If the pattern is repeated CP8 will be 2029-34, CP9 2034-39 so I assume it will be towards the end of CP9.
 
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