BR Type 3s - Regional Preferences

[alexl92]

I just wondered if there's any particular reason why Class 33s seem to have been the preferred Type 3 traction on British Rail's southern region, whilst 37s were preferred almost everywhere else? Were they designed specifically for the Southern?

Thanks

 

[Ash Bridge]

I just wondered if there's any particular reason why Class 33s seem to have been the preferred Type 3 traction on British Rail's southern region, whilst 37s were preferred almost everywhere else? Were they designed specifically for the Southern?

Thanks

In a word, yes!

 

[dgl]

Also remember that the southern region had the requirement that they had to work with other SR traction and their unique MU control system and have electric heat/ETH.
Other regions did not need MU control and required steam heat rather than ETH.

 

[Helvellyn]

The Western Region also went for the Class 35 'Hymeks' initially, with 101 of the diesel hydraulic locomotives built.

Also remember that the southern region had the requirement that they had to work with other SR traction and their unique MU control system and have electric heat/ETH.

I know they had the ETH requirement but multiple working wise they were fitted with Blue Star equipment, which wasn't unique to the Southern Region. 19 locomotives were fitted with SR style multiple working equipment as part of the Bournemouth Line electrification to work with the 4-TC units between Bournemouth and Weymouth as well as other routes off the juice.

I've always wondered that when the Class 37/4 ETH conversions came about if any thought was given to transferring some Class 33s to Scotland instead given they were already ETH fitted and the fact that you had the Class 26 type 2s also built by BRCW with Crompton-Parkinson equipment.

 

[D365]

And there was the Class 31 for the Eastern region?

 

[Rob F]

And there was the Class 31 for the Eastern region?

31s are type 2, are they not?

Rob

 

[Cowley]

And there was the Class 31 for the Eastern region?

The 31s are actually type 2s but are fairly near to a type 3 with their re-engined EE power units.

Worth mentioning also that the 12 33/2s were designed with narrower bodies for use on the restricted width Hastings route and that 33s I believe have controls on both sides of the cab?

 

[507 001]

The 31s are actually type 2s but are fairly near to a type 3 with their re-engined EE power units.

Worth mentioning also that the 12 33/2s were designed with narrower bodies for use on the restricted width Hastings route and that 33s I believe have controls on both sides of the cab?

33s did indeed have cab controls on both sides, as did classes 71/73/74. The second mans side controls were there for shunting purposes and didn’t have a speedo/brake gauges.

 

[Spartacus]

I've always wondered that when the Class 37/4 ETH conversions came about if any thought was given to transferring some Class 33s to Scotland instead given they were already ETH fitted and the fact that you had the Class 26 type 2s also built by BRCW with Crompton-Parkinson equipment.

In one sense the 33s would probably have been better off with the 26s and 27s, but operational requirements, as well as many 33s already having Southern specific features, meant it was never going to happen. 33s, and 73s too, were always going to remain a largely Southern class.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In one sense the 33s would probably have been better off with the 26s and 27s, but operational requirements, as well as many 33s already having Southern specific features, meant it was never going to happen. 33s, and 73s too, were always going to remain a largely Southern class.

Some of the 26's + 27's etc started life in Kent to get rid of steam ....(I think) , but do not get into a detailed rant or whatever about this.

The 33's were superb Southern machines , flexible in the utmost , and had proper dual cab controls. Fine machines . Much missed.

 

[30907]

The SR decision to go for ETH only on the Cromptons meant they could have Type 3 power in a Bo-Bo loco.
There was a slight problem at the beginning though, in that the SR didn't have enough ETH hauled stock, hence the ingenious conversions of EMU stock for the Oxted line (and I believe pairings with a 24 on Folkestone line expresses before electrification).
They weren't primarily passenger locos in the early years - though I was most disappointed to have one on the 1130 ex Waterloo in summer 1964 (my dad obviously hadn't cottoned on that this one train was booked DL - at least in summer only as it was Bulleid stock!).

 

[30907]

Some of the 26's + 27's etc started life in Kent to get rid of steam ....(I think) , but do not get into a detailed rant or whatever about this.

Not a rant - 24s only I think, the 33s were late being delivered.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not a rant - 24s only I think, the 33s were late being delivered.

Thank you ...

 

[randyrippley]

I've read somewhere that Southern wanted the 33's because they thought the 37's were too heavy for the power output and weren't keen on Co-Co diesels

What I can never understand is why the 27's weren't built as 33's. Surely by then steam heating was well on the way to being phased out?

 

[randyrippley]

Some of the 26's + 27's etc started life in Kent to get rid of steam ....(I think) , but do not get into a detailed rant or whatever about this.

The 33's were superb Southern machines , flexible in the utmost , and had proper dual cab controls. Fine machines . Much missed.

No, a few of the 24's went to the Southern. I think they were deboilered to hit weight limits........
Some of the 26's I believe started on the Eastern, but soon went north

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd always thought of 33s being purely Southern machines, it's only through these fora that I learned about their use (before my time, but only just!) on the Welsh Marches line and Cardiff to Portsmouth.

The dual controls thing was one of the reasons that EWS sent a pair up to Aberdeen to work local trip freights. They didn't last long up there though, possibly due to being a bit past it by then but possibly due to that traffic being lost- it may well have been a combination of the two factors.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Some of the 26's + 27's etc started life in Kent to get rid of steam ....(I think) , but do not get into a detailed rant or whatever about this.

The 33's were superb Southern machines , flexible in the utmost , and had proper dual cab controls. Fine machines . Much missed.

I'm pretty sure there were no 27s sent to the SR (except on inter-regional workings from the LMR) and, as 30907 wrote, it was the very early 24s sent to the SR on loan from Willesden in 1959-60. In my understanding it wasn't so much to get rid of steam for its own sake (they would have done the same thing on the LNW) but because the SR in wealthy SE England couldn't get staff to maintain steam - if you see the subtle difference. BICBW.

ISTR the early 26s were sent to Hornsey for awhile. I don't know if this was to replace the disastrous NBL D61xx, which were, of course, sent packing back to Scotland.

 

[30907]

I'd always thought of 33s being purely Southern machines, it's only through these fora that I learned about their use (before my time, but only just!) on the Welsh Marches line and Cardiff to Portsmouth.

That was a bit of an afterthought, as it were, after the WR had started using them around Exeter - they were spare, they were more powerful and newer than 25s/31s respectively, and the WR had got used to them I suppose....

 

[edwin_m]

For many duties when these classes were ordered, weight was an advantage as it gave more brake force for handling unfitted freights. But I don't think the Southern would have had many unfitted freights, and many of those it did have would have come in from other Regions complete with suitable locos. The 33 is about 30 tonnes lighter, equating to around one extra coach, and its reduced length would have been a benefit at the cramped London termini.

 

[kermit]

73s too, were always going to remain a largely Southern class.

Who could have predicted them tootling round Scotland at night in 2018?!

 

[Spartacus]

I know, it was strange enough when they worked on merseyside, but at least that made sense!

 

[Bevan Price]

The first batch of 27s initially worked on what was then the Midland Division of the London Midland Region, and moved to Scotland as more Class 25s (& 20s) arrived on the LMR.

 

[D365]

Who could have predicted them tootling round Scotland at night in 2018?!

I know, it was strange enough when they worked on merseyside, but at least that made sense!

As I understand it, the decision to go with Class 73s was esentially because of not enough 37s being available?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Going back to class 33s, from early on in their lives didn't the Southern Region employ them regularly on the Cliffe (Kent) - Uddingston cement trains operating over the ECML as far as York for a number of years?

 

[Cowley]

Going back to class 33s, from early on in their lives didn't the Southern Region employ them regularly on the Cliffe (Kent) - Uddingston cement trains operating over the ECML as far as York for a number of years?

Yes they did didn’t they. Was this because the Southern region were using the 24s on steam heated stock still and some of the 33s were spare? There are photos of them online running these before they had yellow warning panels so very early days of the class.

 

[Girner]

The 31s are actually type 2s but are fairly near to a type 3 with their re-engined EE power units.

Worth mentioning also that the 12 33/2s were designed with narrower bodies for use on the restricted width Hastings route and that 33s I believe have controls on both sides of the cab?

They were nicknamed 'Slim Jim's'!

 

[jimm]

Probably worth bearing in mind that BRCW went out of business in 1962, once production of the 27s and 33s was completed, so when it came to further orders of diesel-electric Type 3s, the 37 was the only game in town - 190 of the 308 Class 37s eventually built were ordered in July 1962 and 1964.

 

[Cowley]

Probably worth bearing in mind that BRCW went out of business in 1962, once production of the 27s and 33s was completed, so when it came to further orders of diesel-electric Type 3s, the 37 was the only game in town - 190 of the 308 Class 37s eventually built were ordered in July 1962 and 1964.

Very good point Jimm.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes they did didn’t they. Was this because the Southern region were using the 24s on steam heated stock still and some of the 33s were spare? There are photos of them online running these before they had yellow warning panels so very early days of the class.

No, don't think so. Not sure when the cement started runing, but ISTR it was running in 1961, and the 33s were used long after the 24s had been returned to the LMR (which I think was in 1962). The cement trains were also heavy - two 33s had something like 700 HP more than 2 x 24s - and I'm sure they needed that power to keep to decent timings on the GN.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Didn't 33s play a role in dealing with the spoil from the Channel tunnel construction too? I'm sure I've read such somewhere...