BR mk1 BSK and BCK coaches in service.

[Sun Chariot]

Can’t quite tell if the BSK is still on (dreaded) BR1 bogies or B4s? The BCK is rightly on Commonwealths and the TPOs look to be B4s. I know which coach i would be travelling in!

The BSK looks like BR1 bogies. Axleboxes, journals and side beams look familiar as BR1; and differ to the straight beams and 'boxes of the B4/B5 bogies on the adjacent TPO.

 

[Western 52]

The BSK looks like BR1 bogies. Axleboxes, journals and side beams look familiar as BR1; and differ to the straight beams and 'boxes of the B4/B5 bogies on the adjacent TPO.

Yes B1 bogies on the BSK. The original slide is clearer than the scan.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @Western 52 - and I really should get my favourite 1980s 35mm shots digitised, over the dark evenings ahead.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Thank you! I know from photos there were quite a few BR1 bogied vehicles in the Pompey-Cardiff sets which were also based at Canton I think.

 

[Western 52]

I remember quite a few BR1 bogied Mk1s in the Pompey sets up to May 1988 when the 155s took over. The sets normally had 1 or 2 BSKs too, but I don't remember any BCKs.

 

[WesternLancer]

I've found a picture I took of the ecs for the 2000 Cardiff to Crewe coming off Canton depot, in 1986 I think. The BCK is the first coach with a BSK next to it. I think the loco was 47406. The remains of 47111 are in the foreground.

Interesting to see that pic.

 

[Taunton]

A BCK was quite common as guard accommodation on the various Western Region overnight newspaper trains, which while theoretically not passenger workings would convey various passengers who were either stranded or just turned up hopeful. Principal of these were Naval sailors returning to Plymouth, where, regardless of tickets held, the guard would put any officers in the Firsts and the men in the Seconds. WR staff in the West Country, more than most, had done their time in the Navy, and knew this avoided any embarrassment.

Interesting to hear that Carstairs standby vehicle, which I recall, was in such poor internal condition; I presume if used it would normally only convey the guard. In addition to all the other combinations listed it had smoking and non-smoking compartments for both classes. St Rollox spent quite a lot on its conversion, principally on the dual braking, which only a few vehicles had and which needed finding room in the underframe for both air and vacuum cylinders, and complex double brake rigging. Possibly there was no standard drawing for this and the works drawing office had to devise their own. I wonder how it was ensured the batteries did not go flat. It seems to be just peeking from its normal position into the left hand edge of this photo

scot-rail.co.uk » Photo » Class 25 at Carstairs Engine Shed

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I know from photos there were quite a few BR1 bogied vehicles in the Pompey-Cardiff sets which were also based at Canton

Correct on both counts. During the spring of '88 there was a bit of a mixed bag, formation wise. I have evidence of sets (on one day) formed as follows;

SO/SK*, CK, SO/SK*, Mk2 BSO, SO/SK*.

SO/SK*, SO/SK*, Mk2 BFK, BSK, SO/SK*, with both BFK and BSK van ends facing Portsmouth.

SO/SK* (x 5), BG.

SO/SK*, SO/SK*, Mk2 BFK, BSK, SO/SK*, with BFK van end facing Portsmouth end and BSK van end facing Cardiff.

* = Either/or, not both. Photo quality not clear enough to be precise. A mix of bogie types is evident.

 

[Western 52]

Although I don't remember a BCK in the Portsmouth sets, I found the attached photo I took at Bishton in 1986. It shows a strengthened set running from Cardiff, with a BCK at the front. This may have been the summer Saturday Brighton train.

 

[Falcon1200]

BSKs could also be used as buffet cars!

In the 1970s one of the Paddington/Oxford commuter Mark 1 sets formed the Summer Saturday Oxford/Paignton service. Oxford station supplied a trolley with an urn of hot water which was placed in the BSK and sold tea, coffee and a limited range of sweets and crisps. The trolley was unloaded at Newton Abbot, crossed from Down side to Up side via the barrow crossing, and the urn was refilled by the station buffet for the return trip. I assisted a friend with this trolley one Saturday, IIRC the main clientele for the train was railway staff from Swindon!

 

[Sun Chariot]

BSKs could also be used as buffet cars!

I certainly remember buying a soft drinks can from a trolley located in a BSK's cage.
Similarly, in the early 1980's our family trips on Merrymaker excursions, always meant a peruse at the trade stand in the BSK van area.

 

[D Williams]

Just to expand the conversation , where were the TSO coaches used? I have the Xpress publishing book on coach formations in Cornwall for a typical summer Saturday and not one TSO appears.

 

[Taunton]

Open TSO coaches, apart from scheduled workings in the likes of excursion trains fully formed of such, were also used just randomly in place of SK vehicles, typically not the position where reservations were involved as the seat layout numbers were quite different. On the WR by the 1960s it was common to have just one in a formation.

I do recall they were still disliked by elder relations, who among other things referred to them as "the restaurant car", despite being in a train with no refreshment facilities at all.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Open TSO coaches, apart from scheduled workings in the likes of excursion trains fully formed of such, were also used just randomly in place of SK vehicles, typically not the position where reservations were involved as the seat layout numbers were quite different.

It used to intigue my young self, whenever I was in an SK. The armrests had long been removed and the seating was notionally 64S - akin to the TSO - yet their reservation clips remained in the "three a side" positions, to provide (if 100% reserved per coach) 48S.

Mind you, I only saw a few instances of an SK compartments with four sat per side. Invariably it was a family with younger children, rather than of 4 squashed adults.

Whenever I had the choice between SK occupancy or on TSO seating, I always went for the former.

 

[Rescars]

Open TSO coaches, apart from scheduled workings in the likes of excursion trains fully formed of such, were also used just randomly in place of SK vehicles, typically not the position where reservations were involved as the seat layout numbers were quite different. On the WR by the 1960s it was common to have just one in a formation.

I do recall they were still disliked by elder relations, who among other things referred to them as "the restaurant car", despite being in a train with no refreshment facilities at all.

Good call by your relations! The nice big tables in a TSO made them excellent dining saloons. All you needed was a RK or something similar to provide the kitchen facilities!!

The trolleys with urns used on weekend workings had to live in the luggage cage. They were unwieldy things and the urns made them top heavy, so the notion of manipulating them along corridors was totally unrealistic as well as unsafe. Back in the day they were frequently operated by Travellers-Fare station catering staff who volunteered from some overtime. Beneath the dignity (or something) of regular train catering staff!

Reverting to BCKs, I dimly recall that there was a swing door in the corridor between the first and second class areas. Am I correct? Were these swing doors unique to BCKs?

 

[Beebman]

Mind you, I only saw a few instances of an SK compartments with four sat per side. Invariably it was a family with younger children, rather than of 4 squashed adults.

There were very often 4 squashed adults per side on Thames Valley loco-hauled peak trains in the 80s!

Reverting to BCKs, I dimly recall that there was a swing door in the corridor between the first and second class areas. Am I correct? Were these swing doors unique to BCKs?

The diagram on the ABC book image which I posted on the previous page shows the swing door. The same book shows a door in the corridor on CKs but it looks like a sliding one and I'm pretty sure it was.

 

[Sun Chariot]

There were very often 4 squashed adults per side on Thames Valley loco-hauled peak trains in the 80s!

Ah - my 1980s teen self, was travelling very much off-peak

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Sep 2024 ==

Reverting to BCKs, I dimly recall that there was a swing door in the corridor between the first and second class areas. Am I correct? Were these swing doors unique to BCKs?

I can recall them in CKs too

 

[D6130]

A BCK was quite common as guard accommodation on the various Western Region overnight newspaper trains, which while theoretically not passenger workings would convey various passengers who were either stranded or just turned up hopeful. Principal of these were Naval sailors returning to Plymouth, where, regardless of tickets held, the guard would put any officers in the Firsts and the men in the Seconds. WR staff in the West Country, more than most, had done their time in the Navy, and knew this avoided any embarrassment.

Interesting to hear that Carstairs standby vehicle, which I recall, was in such poor internal condition; I presume if used it would normally only convey the guard. In addition to all the other combinations listed it had smoking and non-smoking compartments for both classes. St Rollox spent quite a lot on its conversion, principally on the dual braking, which only a few vehicles had and which needed finding room in the underframe for both air and vacuum cylinders, and complex double brake rigging. Possibly there was no standard drawing for this and the works drawing office had to devise their own. I wonder how it was ensured the batteries did not go flat. It seems to be just peeking from its normal position into the left hand edge of this photo

scot-rail.co.uk » Photo » Class 25 at Carstairs Engine Shed

A very interesting photo. Incidentally, the red-painted ex-LNER vehicles sticking out of the shed formed the Scottish Region Emergency Control Train, which was based at Carstairs for many years. This was designed to act as a substitute Control office in the event of the Glasgow HQ Control being knocked-out by fire, nuclear war, etc.

Although I don't remember a BCK in the Portsmouth sets, I found the attached photo I took at Bishton in 1986. It shows a strengthened set running from Cardiff, with a BCK at the front. This may have been the summer Saturday Brighton train.

This looks very much like a strengthened Southern Region air-braked electric-heated set, hence the probability of it being the Summer Saturday Cardiff-Brighton train. There is also a BSK in third from last position, of which the Southern Region also had several AB/EH examples, used latterly mainly in the eight car peak hour Oxted line sets (8 Set H).

 

[Big Jumby 74]

This looks very much like a strengthened Southern Region air-braked electric-heated set, hence the probability of it being the Summer Saturday Cardiff-Brighton train. There is also a BSK in third from last position, of which the Southern Region also had several AB/EH examples, used latterly mainly in the eight car peak hour Oxted line sets (8 Set H).

This was my thinking, 8 Set H or 8 Set J (as diagrammers we had access to two of each) and although the H sets are noted in the CWN's (70's etc), my somewhat sparse collection of same doesn't include any with reference to the J Sets. But in essence all were basically the same towards the end, 8 Mk1s, a mix of SK/TSO(SO) and usually a couple of brakes (BSK mostly AFAIR - as opposed to BCK).
Was it your good-self who posted the cyclic diagrams (or a basic example thereof) of the 8 Set H's, late 70's? I vividly recall diagramming them (and the J's) on a regular, albeit STP basis, but as to their LTP diagrams, that is now lost to me and the mists of time/brain fog!
But I do recall memories of one of the yard supervisors at CJ, 'Jock', broad Scots accent, and didn't take fools gladly, but knew his stuff when it came to LH carriage marshalling, which was the mainstay of business in those days - CY was majority non electrified of course back then.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Reverting to BCKs, I dimly recall that there was a swing door in the corridor between the first and second class areas. Am I correct? Were these swing doors unique to BCKs?

I recall them in 4VEP DTCs as well, and probably other units

 

[WesternLancer]

I recall them in 4VEP DTCs as well, and probably other units

in 4CIGs too I reckon, IIRC

 

[D6130]

Was it your good-self who posted the cyclic diagrams (or a basic example thereof) of the 8 Set H's, late 70's?

I'm afraid not....wish I knew how to!

IIRC, the BSK in the photo - S34625 - was one of the vacuum-braked, dual-heat examples used mostly to provide guard/passenger accommodation on the overnight newspaper services on all three divisions.

Two of those vehicles - S34925 and S35012 - were kept in much better internal condition for use at either end of the 10 car VB/DH set used for inter-regional excursions and - prior to the advent of the ER air-braked Mark 2abc sets - on the Southern's Poole-Newcastle/Leeds circuit. On the odd occasion when one of the above two were not available, one of the 'paper train' BSKs had to substitute.

I well remember travelling all the way from Petersfield to York and back via the Midland Main Line on a 'Pleasure Seeker' ADEX in S34937, the seats of which obviously hadn't been vacuumed (cleaned....not braked!) in months, if not years.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

the seats of which obviously hadn't been vacuumed (cleaned....not braked!) in months, if not years.

Ah yes, the olde cloud of dust that enveloped one on sitting down.....