BR mk1 BSK and BCK coaches in service.

[Cowley]

Evening railway history people.

I was just wondering if there was a distinction as to where these coaches would have operated in the 1970s and 80s BR blue era?

For those not familiar with these coaches, the BSK featured a guards/brake section in one half of the coach while the other end had four 2nd class compartments and a toilet.

The BSK however had a smaller guards section, three 2nd class and two 1st class compartments plus a toilet at each end of the passenger section.

Were the BCK’s more common on the Southern and Scottish regions would anyone know?

Also, would anyone also know how many of each type were produced in the first place?

Many thanks!

 

[Gloster]

BCK ran from 21000 to 21275 according to Parkin’s Mark 1 book, but the table shows a few gaps. So, if they aren’t typos, it was about 260. BSK ran from 34000 to 35499, with no gaps in the last five-hundred, where they are most likely to have been.

I would doubt that they were more common on the SR and ScR (how do you define that: numbers, duties, mileage?), but it may be that the duties on these two regions where a ‘bit of everything, but only a bit’ for the BCK were more common or obvious to enthusiasts. Or maybe they were just used on the sort of trains that enthusiasts used. Remember, a fair proportion (probably higher than the other regions) of SR duties were on trains that carried plenty of mail, parcels and newspapers.

The 1989 RCTS coaching stock has 89 BCK: 9 SR, 18 ScR, 15 WR and the majority of the rest on the ER. Probably getting on towards 400 BSK, of which about 30 SR and no ScR. Very much E.& O.E.

 

[Cowley]

BCK ran from 21000 to 21275 according to Parkin’s Mark 1 book, but the table shows a few gaps. So, if they aren’t typos, it was about 260. BSK ran from 34000 to 35499, with no gaps in the last five-hundred, where they are most likely to have been.

I would doubt that they were more common on the SR and ScR (how do you define that: numbers, duties, mileage?), but it may be that the duties on these two regions where a ‘bit of everything, but only a bit’ for the BCK were more common or obvious to enthusiasts. Or maybe they were just used on the sort of trains that enthusiasts used. Remember, a fair proportion (probably higher than the other regions) of SR duties were on trains that carried plenty of mail, parcels and newspapers.

The 1989 RCTS coaching stock has 89 BCK: 9 SR, 18 ScR, 15 WR and the majority of the rest on the ER. Probably getting on towards 400 BSK, of which about 30 SR and no ScR. Very much E.& O.E.

Well that’s most of the detail I was after just in one post. Thanks for that.

I suppose I was thinking about the southern region as I associate them with the nighttime mail services, Scotland on the other hand was a vague thought that they were used on short loco hauled trains in the steam heat era out to Mallaig and Kyle etc. Not sure though?

Having looked into it a little more now, it looks like quite a few ended on the western region too after the Bournemouth line was electrified.

 

[Beebman]

Having looked into it a little more now, it looks like quite a few ended on the western region too after the Bournemouth line was electrified.

A random memory I have from the late 1970s is seeing a 2-coach Shrewsbury train at Swansea formed of an SK or TSO with a BCK (hauled by a 37).

 

[AndrewE]

A random memory I have from the late 1970s is seeing a 2-coach Shrewsbury train at Swansea formed of an SK or TSO with a BCK (hauled by a 37).

I think the York Mail (once upon a time to Aberystwyth, then cut back to Salop) might have had just a BCK on it for the non-GPO people, i.e. passengers and the guard. I did use it once or twice...

 

[Gloster]

I think the York Mail (once upon a time to Aberystwyth, then cut back to Salop) might have had just a BCK on it for the non-GPO people, i.e. passengers and the guard. I did use it once or twice...

I think it was a BCK and an SK, with an extra dated SK west of Shrewsbury in summer. The extra SK was presumably for day-trippers, but I can’t see there being many in the down direction as the train left Shrewsbury at somewhere around 04.30. (Different attitudes: putting on a coach that will be empty in one direction to avoid crowding in the other.) There was also a tail of vans, including the ex-fish SPV, most of which just shuttled backwards and forwards between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth.

 

[CW2]

There was a BCK at Carstairs as a standby vehicle, in case any of the trains booked to divide there were missing a brake vehicle in one half of the train. It was dual heat and dual braked, so it could do pretty much anything. I think it was 21269 - can anybody confirm?

 

[hexagon789]

I think it was 21269 - can anybody confirm?

Yes, 21269 was the Carstairs standby brake.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I think it was a BCK and an SK, with an extra dated SK west of Shrewsbury in summer. The extra SK was presumably for day-trippers, but I can’t see there being many in the down direction as the train left Shrewsbury at somewhere around 04.30. (Different attitudes: putting on a coach that will be empty in one direction to avoid crowding in the other.) There was also a tail of vans, including the ex-fish SPV, most of which just shuttled backwards and forwards between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth.

The York Mail also had a Manchester Vic portion - detached / added at Stalybridge. Very useful after an evening at the buffet!

 

[D6130]

suppose I was thinking about the southern region as I associate them with the nighttime mail services, Scotland on the other hand was a vague thought that they were used on short loco hauled trains in the steam heat era out to Mallaig and Kyle etc. Not sure though?

You're right....the vacuum-braked steam heat Scottish BCKs were used extensively on West Highland, Oban, Kyle, Far North and Glasgow-Dundee sets in the latter days of steam heating....although sometimes substituted by a Mark 1 or early Mark 2 BFK. Prior to the Fort William sleeper switching to Euston in the mid-1970s, the through seating coach to & from Kings Cross was an ER Mark 1 BCK.

From about 1968 onwards, all of the remaining Southern BCKs were air-braked, 750v electric-heated and were used principally on the Southampton Docks and Weymouth Quay boat trains....plus weekend reliefs on the Exeter line and occasional excursions. Until the demise of the 'Night Ferry' in about 1971, two of these vehicles - 21270 & 21273 were dedicated to that service, having been modified with UIC couplings, brake hoses and ETH connections....but were later converted back to standard.

The Southern's overnight mail and newspaper services utilised vacuum-braked, dual-heated BSKs....coupled to TSOs and an FK in the case of the 01 40 Waterloo-Yeovil Junction papers....which returned to Waterloo as an early morning commuter service, instead of running empty to Clapham Yard like the others.

There was a BCK at Carstairs as a standby vehicle, in case any of the trains booked to divide there were missing a brake vehicle in one half of the train. It was dual heat and dual braked, so it could do pretty much anything. I think it was 21269 - can anybody confirm?

Correct. It was a surplus ex-Southern Region vehicle specially-modified at St Rollox works. One hopes that it never had to carry any first class passengers, as its first class seat cushions were usually to be found in the train crew mess room at Carstairs....often with spare night shift drivers and guards sleeping on them!

 

[Magdalia]

Were the BCK’s more common on the Southern and Scottish regions would anyone know?

I have a 1980 coaching stock book. It doesn't have depot allocations but does give the regional prefix for each number.

The Scottish Region only has BCKs but all of the other regions have a mixture of BCKs and BSKs.

 

[6Gman]

When the Far North line was loco-hauled with portions for both Wick and Thurso BCKs were very handy for the (small numbers of) First Class passengers.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The 19.05 Euston to Blackpool and Barrow obviously required a brake in each portion and a BCK was usually the brake at the rear of the front portion, which was for Blackpool. I guess the demand for first class on an arrival at Blackpool just before midnight was within its capacity.

Probably happened on other West Coast services that conveyed two portions.

BCKs always seemed attractive to travel in, with the provision of almost every facility (including separate 1st and 2nd class toilets) in one coach.

 

[Roger1973]

One of the more obscure workings that a BCK could be used for was the Clapham Junction - Kensington Olympia shuttle (then 1 or 2 trains in each peak) - where a BCK and one other Mk 1 coach would be used if a 4 TC wasn't available, hauled by whatever was available (I have read that it could be a 33, 73 running on diesel or even an 09.)

Photo with a class 33 with BCK and either an SK or TSO* (not my photo or Flickr account) here.

* - The window layouts were the same. I'm not in the league to tell which it was from the ventilator pattern!

 

[Cowley]

Brilliant stuff everyone. Thank you very much.

 

[Gloster]

One of the more obscure workings that a BCK could be used for was the Clapham Junction - Kensington Olympia shuttle (then 1 or 2 trains in each peak) - where a BCK and one other Mk 1 coach would be used if a 4 TC wasn't available, hauled by whatever was available (I have read that it could be a 33, 73 running on diesel or even an 09.)

Photo with a class 33 with BCK and either an SK or TSO* (not my photo or Flickr account) here.

* - The window layouts were the same. I'm not in the league to tell which it was from the ventilator pattern!

In 1980 the morning workings were diagrammed to be a BCK+TSO, while the afternoon ones were a TC. Another odd working was the early Barnstaple-Exeter, which should have been a BCK+SK+parcel vans+any overflow goods wagons.

 

[Roger1973]

In 1980 the morning workings were diagrammed to be a BCK+TSO, while the afternoon ones were a TC.

That explains something - I have a vague memory (and a photo or two somewhere) of an afternoon journey on it with my late father (he must have had a day off work) some time in the early 80s - a morning journey would have meant peak fares. We were hoping for something more unusual than the 33/1 + 4 TC that we got. Having relatives in Poole at that time, 33/1 + 4TC wasn't all that unusual for us.

I think we were the only passengers on the train and got slightly odd looks from the railway staff.

 

[edwin_m]

I've always understood that the BCKs were particularly associated with portion working. A train with several portions would need first, second and guard/parcels accommodation in each one and the BCK could provide all these on its own if necessary - but the portion was more likely to have a few more coaches as well. Being a short formation the portion wouldn't need much parcels space, and if there were several portions then devoting half a coach in each one with a normal BSK would have reduced the passenger capacity quite a bit. The Southern had some portion working, most notably the Atlantic Coast Express which survived into the Mk1 era and I would imagine included quite a few BCKs on departure from Waterloo.

 

[hexagon789]

I would imagine included quite a few BCKs on departure from Waterloo.

Eight in 1959!

 

[Western 52]

In the 1980s I remember a BCK as a regular vehicle in the Cardiff to Crewe TPO. I think there was a BSK too.

 

[The exile]

Yes, 21269 was the Carstairs standby brake.

I dread to think what would have emerged from the upholstery if anyone had sat down in it….

 

[Harpo]

In the 1980s I remember a BCK as a regular vehicle in the Cardiff to Crewe TPO. I think there was a BSK too.

Yes. I knew the guy who did the WR coaching stock diagrams and he had said (late 80s I think?) that this was the WR’s last booked BCK. 2000 Cardiff to Crewe & 0147 (?) return. Booked for Canton’s driver training 50 for a short while too early 80s.

I suspect there might have been others working vice BSKs in other WR sets too?

 

[Western 52]

I've found a picture I took of the ecs for the 2000 Cardiff to Crewe coming off Canton depot, in 1986 I think. The BCK is the first coach with a BSK next to it. I think the loco was 47406. The remains of 47111 are in the foreground.

 

[Springs Branch]

BCKs always seemed attractive to travel in, with the provision of almost every facility (including separate 1st and 2nd class toilets) in one coach.

I was mildly impressed to see that amongst the permutations & combinations of facilities squeezed into one single coach (e.g. separate toilets - so no risk of First Class passengers rubbing shoulders with the riff-raff) was smoking and non-smoking compartments for each class.

 

[AndrewE]

BCKs always seemed attractive to travel in, with the provision of almost every facility (including separate 1st and 2nd class toilets) in one coach.

I was mildly impressed to see that amongst the permutations & combinations of facilities squeezed into one single coach (e.g. separate toilets - so no risk of First Class passengers rubbing shoulders with the riff-raff) was smoking and non-smoking compartments for each class.

Of course they weren't really "separate" toilets, just adjacent to different class compartments, in the same way as you can go hunting for a working toilet anywhere on a train nowadays.
The "first class" one would have been used by the guard, being closest...

 

[norbitonflyer]

BCK ran from 21000 to 21275 according to Parkin’s Mark 1 book, but the table shows a few gaps. . BSK ran from 34000 to 35499, with no gaps in the last five-hundred, where they are most likely to have been.

Longworth lists BCKs 21000-21275 with no gaps, BSKs 34000-35499 (with Mark 2z, 2a and 2c vehicles converted from BFK continuing the series to 35518), again with no gaps
Initial allocations of BCKs - W 113, E 98, M37, SC 15, S 13

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Kept a personal note of vehicles on Clapham Yard one day many years ago (for some reason that now eludes me?) aside from keeping official records, although my diary makes no mention of which actual day, but likely mid afternoon one SX day. Many of the SR's BCKs and BSKs being present, as was normal back then on most day shifts.

 

[Beebman]

Hopefully the attached image is useful, it's from the 1962 edition of the Ian Allan ABC of British Railways Coaches:

 

[Gloster]

Hopefully the attached image is useful, it's from the 1962 edition of the Ian Allan ABC of British Railways Coaches:

A comment on that is that there were still a few BCK to be delivered, including all 14 of the SR’s allocation. I would guess that they were less urgently needed on the SR as there were already quite a few older vehicles of both Maunsell and Bulleid designs on the Region.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I've found a picture I took of the ecs for the 2000 Cardiff to Crewe coming off Canton depot, in 1986 I think. The BCK is the first coach with a BSK next to it. I think the loco was 47406. The remains of 47111 are in the foreground.

Can’t quite tell if the BSK is still on (dreaded) BR1 bogies or B4s? The BCK is rightly on Commonwealths and the TPOs look to be B4s. I know which coach i would be travelling in!