BR/Intercity General discussion

[Zoe]

At least one park of the UK (Northern Ireland) still has a nationalised railway.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Victorialine - get yourself to a spot along the ECML and enjoy some GC Valentas screaming past.

Getting back to the thread, I personally only have 6 or 7 years of BR experience and even that was as a wee bern, so Intercity/BR as a business/service means little to me. HOWEVER, I do remember Class 47's with rakes of MK2's in the superb swallow livery thundering up the iron outside Leeds. I also think that the BR introduction of the class 158 was fabulous! I was always excited to see a 158 turn up at New Pudsey station on a Saturday afternoon in the early 90's - very few around my way in those days. But, I may be a little biased being a 158 fan!

No one has mentioned railfreight yet. Masses and masses of different locos around when I was young. My personal favourtire was the class 58 but the sound of a 56 could not be beaten. I remember it shuddering through my body like an earthquake!

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm not even convinced that the last days of BR were all that great.

Almost everything was being done on a shoestring and the rolling stock was beginning to fall apart. The LHCS service on the WCML needed replacing because the trains were shockingly unreliable and stuck in a bygone age and there was very little money or will to consider anything like a proper "new modernisation scheme".

Yes things were more interesting for the Neds because there was much more variety in rolling stock, but this meant a wildly non-standard fleet and just ocassionally an inappropriate use of stock or traction to cover for a failure. Yes the liveries were very colourful, but beneath the paint were the same old tired trains that had often been beating up and down the same stretches of line since the mid-1950's. With the exception of the IC225 sets and "Skodas", there was very little that wore the IC Swallow that hadn't been built since the mid-1970's.

About the only good thing from the BR era that I think is missed is the concept of proper "joined up" timetabling with connecting services. However, this in itself is not a product of privatisation as such, but of the way in which the relationship between the TOC's and Nitwit Rail was established by the Government. I don't believe that the TOC's have missed the earning potential that having a properly connecting service offers, but they are hamstrung by the current system of performance measurement and penalty payments.

O L Leigh

 

[87015]

Almost everything was being done on a shoestring and the rolling stock was beginning to fall apart. The LHCS service on the WCML needed replacing because the trains were shockingly unreliable and stuck in a bygone age and there was very little money or will to consider anything like a proper "new modernisation scheme".

Same WCML loco-hauled sets on which prior to 1996 or so substitutions by even RES electrics were pretty rare and Class 87 availability dropped by 40% in three months after Virgin brought in there "revised maintenance regime" then.

Yes it needed replacing by around 2000, but Virgin did it no favours. Nothing a thorough rebuild of the coaches and new or rebuilt locos couldn't have done at a fraction of the price IMO.

 

[Failed Unit]

Questions:

- Would the entire West Coast fleet have been replaced under BR and the West Coast upgrade have taken place, thus allowing the step change in service levels afforded by VHF?

Yes, remember IC250? Maybe not 3 trains per hour to Manchester and Birmingham but I am not convinced we need 3tph now, 2 could be enough.

- Would the investment have been made to re-engineer the HSTs (before you say, that is a good thing!) or would they be allowed to soldier on and get less and less reliable? Would they have been internally refurbished to such a high standard as "Mallard"?

That we will never know, BR did refurbish stock and re-engineer. remember the IC70 seating in the 411's, not everyone's taste but they did move with the times as well.

- Would the railways have been costing the public purse more than they do now?

Certainly not, when you look at how much money National Express, stagecoach and First make in terms of profit and the operational complexities that the franchises have introduced we waste a lot of money on keeping private companies share prices up!

- Controversial maybe, but would the Cross-Country routes have had their ailing loco haulage continue longer and get less and less reliable. Virgin had appalling problems with availability of 47s in the post-privatisation years. Say what you like about Voyagers, they needed them and had the funds and commercial nouse to go and get them, even if the trains they got were flawed.

I suspect XC would have been running around on cascaded HST's, which would have come from electrification projects such as MML and GWML

-Would off peak advance tickets be as cheap as they are now?

BR did some very cheap advanced fares on the east coast, but remember advance purchase cover the minority of journeys. Would we all suffering from the massive increase in prices on walk on tickets and worsening of ticket restrictions had BR remained?

On the other hand, full restaurant services are increasingly rare, flexible fares are increasingly expensive, timetables were better integrated for connecting services under BR and as said elsewhere, trains would be held if a connecting service was delayed so passengers weren't left stranded. The endless pursuit of punctuality at all costs has put paid to that. Another positive was that the IC225 project was also pretty successful, though the East Coast electrification generally accepted to have been done excessively cheaply under state control.

So there are swings and roundabouts... just saying it's interesting to widen the debate.

EDIT: I will just add, it is totally wrong to say there was "nothing wrong" with the ex-BR locos Virgin inherited! There's a picture somewhere of a Railfreight liveried 56 hauling a Virgin XC rake of Mk 2s because of problems with 47s in the late 90s, when the locos were already well over 30 years old

Happy days'

I'm not even convinced that the last days of BR were all that great.

Almost everything was being done on a shoestring and the rolling stock was beginning to fall apart. The LHCS service on the WCML needed replacing because the trains were shockingly unreliable and stuck in a bygone age and there was very little money or will to consider anything like a proper "new modernisation scheme".

I agree with you to some extent, the government wasn't willing to pay for anything in the end, the investment would all take place under the private operators. The rolling stock replacement program ground to a halt as BR was not allowed to spend. Services were cut back to make things more attractive for when they were sold off. IF the government had its way the sleepers to Fort William would be long gone. Things to me were worse in the last few years of BR because of privatistation. If BR were to remain I am sure that the steady investment we saw in the late 1980's would have continued and networker would have carried on rolling of the production lines until all the slam door mk1's had gone.

About the only good thing from the BR era that I think is missed is the concept of proper "joined up" timetabling with connecting services. However, this in itself is not a product of privatisation as such, but of the way in which the relationship between the TOC's and Nitwit Rail was established by the Government. I don't believe that the TOC's have missed the earning potential that having a properly connecting service offers, but they are hamstrung by the current system of performance measurement and penalty payments.

O L Leigh

That is the thing I miss the most and the current drive to have 100% PPM at the expense of getting passengers from A to B needs changing. Even when the franchise holder is the same I bet you don't have a Norwich - Sherringham service held for a mainline connections, much better to have the passengers wait 55minutes for the next train rather than hold the local train. Next time they may drive to the nearest large station rather than use the local service!

I am sure that London - Leeds and London - Bristol would have gone half / hourly should BR have remained if demand had warrented it. I am also sure that MML would be electric by now, but BR did it with a wider brief than just the single franchise (which has killed of electrification so far) MML want electric, Northern and XC don't for example have a lower justification.

Take the MML, Bedford - Leeds done, Northern would have now run EMU's on Sheffield - Leeds, BR would probably then have looked a useful infill such Nottingham - Birmingham, Leeds - York and Doncaster - Sheffield to retire some of those 47's off XC. This is of course speculation, but cascades would have been well thought out, part of the justification of electrifying MML would have been to cascade the HST to XC. I don't think XC could have been butchered as badly as it was, we certainly wouldn't have lost the direct east and west midlands services.

BR was not perfect, but it wasn't purely focused on a particular area. I have critised GNER in the past stating that they were only bothered about flows between their own stations, using a connecting service was not what they wanted you to do. BR was more interested in running a network and not part of it.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I suspect XC would have been running around on cascaded HST's, which would have come from electrification projects such as MML and GWML

Excellent post, Failed Unit

The only thing I'd doubt is how long it would have taken for MML/GWML electrification would have taken hence InterCity XC to get more cascaded HSTs than Virgin XC did. I don't think privatisation was approved until the Railways Act 1993, so if that decision hadn't been taken and the electrification projects approved in 1993 (for the sake or argument), I'm not sure those projects would have been anywhere near finished by the time the 47s etc started to go seriously downhill.

Lots of fair points though, cheers.

 

[Failed Unit]

Excellent post, Failed Unit

The only thing I'd doubt is how long it would have taken for MML/GWML electrification would have taken hence InterCity XC to get more cascaded HSTs than Virgin XC did. I don't think privatisation was approved until the Railways Act 1993, so if that decision hadn't been taken and the electrification projects approved in 1993 (for the sake or argument), I'm not sure those projects would have been anywhere near finished by the time the 47s etc started to go seriously downhill.

Lots of fair points though, cheers.

Why thank you.

The ECML was approved in 1984, Electric services were implemented at various times between then and 1991. Peterborough's local services were in the 1987 if I recall. Leeds in 1989, with Newcastle and Edinburgh in 1991. BR cut the times of 3 trains per day to 3:59- northbound these were the 0800, 1000 and 1500. I don't know when contracts were signed for the 91's as it was supposed to be 89's and mk3's when the electrification was announced. I can't remember exactly but the 317/2 (now 317/6's) were ordered for the Peterborough services (unless the order was just extended).

I am sure if GWML was authorised along the same timescales some HST's would have been free by 1998 so the 47's may have gone about the same time as they were when the voyagers came along. I know we will never know but if the project was authorised in 1993 we may have seen the Turbo services going from about 1996 (ie the ones not going beyond Oxford). Bristol services in 1998 (about the same length as Leeds) and Swansea in about 2000. Don't know if Plymouth would ever have been approve.

Likewise on MML if it was done in 1993 I would expect it would have also been complete in about 1998. I guess Thameslink to Leicester would have also happened earlier.

I know we will never know, but if GWML had been authorised then Oxford - Coventry and Reading to Bassingstoke may have been included.

Whatever the fact remains that between 1993 and 1996 BR had no major capital projects approved hence why we got the 1064 day rolling stock gap, despite the fact that it was needed to replace mk1's. Afterwards the industry was so fragmented that electrification was just a no-no. Even if Great Western had decided they wanted to go electric, compensation to XC which wasn't interested would have made the project less viable. It was a pity really. I doubt Inter-city would have been running DMU's 100% under the wires like we have on the West Coast now!

Which brings me nicely to diversions, some of the older drivers can correct me if I am wrong but say you were based at Leeds (for example) you could drive anything as long as you had traction and route knowledge. You could have a pacer one day and an IC225 another on an extreme example. Likewise I know drivers that did both freight and passengers. This was useful as it was easier for example to find a driver that signed HST's and the Doncaster - Peterborough joint line. Loco's were easier to get hold of as well as they all ultimately belonged to BR so it was easier to sort out something suitable for dragging. It s a luxary to have drivers trained for every possible diversion route now, but back in the day it was a lot easier to find suitable combinations. I remember many weekends in the late 1980's seeing both HST's and dragged 91's going through Lincoln. The Norwich - Liverpool route was even diverted via Sleaford. I even remember in the early 1980's the ECML getting diverted through Lincoln due to a blockage, this was arranged on the day. That kind of thing was the positive of BR, thing could be arranged quickly and easily. Now the wires are down at Newark and you are driving a HST you wait. There is absolutely no way the driver is going to have knowledge of the joint line, nor is one with such knowledge going to be found quickly, hiring of EWS would just be too slow. I know it was not good for the bottom line but BR had a lot more spare drivers per day then we do now as well. It did help with relief trains at peak times as well!

 

[33056]

yup they sure were and you know what else the MTU didnt exist

Ahem..... MTU have been around for a lot longer than you think ( 100 years to be exact ), just not in this country.

From the point of view of somebody who works on the railway, BR was not perfect; far from it - but it was a darn sight better than the dog's dinner that we have now.

 

[Respite]

Ok I have refrained from repying to this post for a while now........Like a few others, I was there during the IC days & had to sit through the confuion & chaos of privatisation.
Firstly forget the whole Virgin needed to bring new stock in argument.....it's a complete lie. They ran the old stock into the ground on purpose, it made the new stuff look good. But in reality & from behind the PR screen The pendo's & 220/221's have not even come close to the performance figures that the 86/87/90/47's did pre sabotage. I know from the outside the dazzle of the new stuff looks great but if you ever get a chance to work with it you may see the cracks showing. Voyagers are falling apart already...really falling apart! Pendo's have suffered badly as well, they certainly don't like the winter.

But I'm not going to tell you what to think, believe the PR if you want to.
All I can say is that 20 years ago I could go from A to B in about the same time as it took before (Infact about exactly the time it took when you take in acount that virgin made NR remodel most of the speed retraints that were there in BR days). The difference being that you used to be able to do it in comfort, alas now you have to be crushed up in the seat.
Sorry but give me a mk2 or mk3 set & I would be happy, not for nostaligia but just for comfort, you have no idea how hard it has been to let go of how that felt & to listen to the utter cr*p that the people like virgin come out with on how they have "improved" the service.

Anyway enough said, loads more I can't speak about as I would be dropping my mate's in it (VWC drivers).

 

[SqUaShIe P]

The BR days were a bit before my time, BUT, I am feeling the InterCity Swallow livery, and i think its a shame that the IC250 didnt go ahead, I saw a mock up of one today, and i thought it would look quite good today... Much better than a Pendo

 

[gingerheid]

Best days of BR...

- Overnight seated services to places other than London
- IC Swallow!

 

[whoshotjimmi]

From the point of view of somebody who works on the railway, BR was not perfect; far from it - but it was a darn sight better than the dog's dinner that we have now.

I don't think dog's dinner is quite fair. Of course, there are going to be a number of things to lament about the current situation. The business model of a modern TOC means that certain aspects of the service need to be cut back where it would be of benefit to the passenger. The simple fact is though, that expenditure on new rolling stock is much higher than in BR days, new trains into service do not (in general) require several trips back to the workshop to fix faulty doors etc and, when a train does arrive at the clean platform on which you wait, it is smart in appearance and generally clean on the inside. A TOC needs to attract passengers to earn money and in many cases they have been victims of their own successes. Yes, there may be overcrowding on some services, but it is only because of the massive upturn in passenger numbers that were not predicted.

It would appear then that passengers not only like the "dog's dinner" they are presented with, but more and more want to join in the feeding every year.

It makes me wonder why such huge year on year patronage was not possible under BR. In fact, the provincial sector haemmorraged money throughout most of its existence, only being kept in business by the first class market BR pandered to.

 

[Respite]

It makes me wonder why such huge year on year patronage was not possible under BR. In fact, the provincial sector haemmorraged money throughout most of its existence, only being kept in business by the first class market BR pandered to.

Media!

Petrol prices & a sudden deisre to be eco friendly coupled with the state of the nations roads making it hard to get anywhere during rush hour('s).

 

[me123]

In a way, because the services are profit-centred, this does increase fares but also is/should be more beneficial for the railways.

• The TOC wants to retain customers, so they are motivated for high customer service.
• They want to keep services punctual to prevent losing all franchises.
• The profits can be reinvested in the railway, to improve the experience for passengers.

Let's face it, whilst we like the old rolling stock, customers are hardly attracted by an HST. Rather, a lot of them don't like the old interior and slam doors. They want Pendolinos, Voyagers, Turbostars and so on, which are newer, look cleaner, and make them want to go on the train. I've seen it in Glasgow; passengers prefer the 334s ("the nice new trains") to the 314s ("the tatty old trains"), even though some enthusiasts would not agree with this statement!

Whether or not this happens is, of course, another story altogether! But BR didn't have the same incentives. It wasn't going to lose the franchise, so didn't need good customer service and all the profits, and the privitisation of the railways has also allowed huge investment in rolling stock, for example refurbishing old trains and purchasing brand new ones which the customers generally like!

I would, however, opt for a longer franchise system to encourage more investment from the TOCs. I don't think we want to go back to BR, as it seemed to end not being too good. But renationalisation may be needed in the future.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Media!

Petrol prices & a sudden deisre to be eco friendly coupled with the state of the nations roads making it hard to get anywhere during rush hour('s).

Petrol prices have now dipped and rail tickets have gotten more expensive.

I don't see the M62 getting less busy between Leeds and Manchester even though passenger journeys on pennine metals have increased.

There has to be some other factor. Maybe the fact that trains are new, clean, more punctual and more regular than they have been previously. I do not think it is a coincidence that passengers consistently clamour for a better service and when they get it, numbers increase. BR catered for first class as that was where the money was made. That just isn't a viable option now and passengers are finally reaping the benefits.

 

[Respite]

So to summerise.

Option 1: Have BR & get the job done.

Option 2: Some TOC thats going to PR & bullsh*t the public into travelling & that would be a good idea? So we need shiny new trains that are inferior to what we had but look smarter? Ok I give up......You lot can keep the remains, I've got nothing left. I still manage to fill my services with my crappy non bling BR 158's. The reason being is they actually get there, my shiny "new" 175's don't.
In the last 3 months I have had:
-1X153 failed due to desklights not working.
-15x175's failed due to lot's of reasons...Including brake failure, TMS failure, Power/brake handle failure, Failure to configure with another 175, door failure, electrical failure causing sparks to shoot around vestibule, toilet blocked failure, Train heat failure, reostatic brake failure, no power failure, Windscreen cracked.............



But who care's, I'm sure you lot know best.

 

[me123]

I'm not saying that the new stock is better, but from a passenger's view, the shiny new trains look better than the tatty old ones and therefore are better. With the exception of regular commuters, most passengers won't realise that the old trains were better than the new ones in terms of reliability, and most have no idea about the operational issues with the new stock.

Out of curiosity, how many 153s and 175s have you driven in the last 3 months? Just an approximation.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I'm not saying that the new stock is better, but from a passenger's view, the shiny new trains look better than the tatty old ones and therefore are better. With the exception of regular commuters, most passengers won't realise that the old trains were better than the new ones in terms of reliability, and most have no idea about the operational issues with the new stock.

My sentiments exactly.

Personally, I think a Mk3 is much more comfortable to sit in than a Voyager for example, but a Voyager is newer. Think of it like this. Girls GENERALLY like to be driven around in a shiny car that smells nice, not a rusty one with 'character'.

Plus, I am a huge 158 fan, but, as my title suggests, they are better now they have been refurbished. Rebirth of the 158.

 

[Respite]

Out of curiosity, how many 153s and 175s have you driven in the last 3 months? Just an approximation.

I agree entirely with what you say regarding tatty stock vs shiney, people are like magpies sometimes. When we started running to Bham Inter this year the staff there were amazed that we were using 158's, they thought we were only using the "old" stock to do driver training down there & could not understand that we were going to use them for passenger service's. Mind you at the same time LM use those really tatty 321's through there & they make our 158's look really good.
But the staff there are used to 390's & even if they fail in the platform there then because they are new & shiney they somehow are still better than our 158's that usually just keep going.

God knows what they are going to think of our 158's when we go to London Marlybone!

As for the other point, well I chose those two units as they are the ones I drive about the same amount.

I'll try & estimate driven vs failure's for last 3 months. (Done a lot of RD's lately & a lot of HOW services hence the high 153 number even though we only have 8 now! )
150- Driven approx 30 (Failure's 0 )
153- Driven approx 50 (Failure's 1 ,Desklights as said)
158- Driven approx 100 (Failure's 1 ,Rad fan catching so engine isolated)
175- Driven approx 50 (Failure's as long as your arm, name a part & it has probably failed on me)

However after seeing 158829 with it's ERtms fitted I reckon we could be loosing some reliability there, especially at first. The new systems, if they play up seem to be able to cripple the whole unit with no real work around.:roll:

But as a result of our 158's now doing Bham Inter with the regular 90mph run's (Up to Mu110mph down there, but of course 90mph max for 158 ), it seems that the regular max speeds seem to be decoking the engines or something as the fleet with a few exceptions is going better than ever.

 

[Failed Unit]

The simple fact is though, that expenditure on new rolling stock is much higher than in BR days,

Is this true, remember BR brought us the HST, the pacers :cry:and the sprinters. If you take out the mk1 replacements that needed to be done by law are things that much better? The Mk1 fleet would have been replaced no matter what!

new trains into service do not (in general) require several trips back to the workshop to fix faulty doors etc and, when a train does arrive at the clean platform on which you wait, it is smart in appearance and generally clean on the inside.

Lets have a look at the DMU fleet then.
170's - they needed new engines and the air con caught fire on several trips. Scotrail in the early years for example struggle to cover services as they rarely had enough sets in service to cover the diagrams.
175's where do we start.
180's again where do we start.
Not a single one of the DMU fleet worked out the box, don't get me started on the EMU fleet, they also had major teething problems at the start. Yes they have then sorted now but for the first 3 - 4 years in service they were worse than the stock they replaced. Many new DMU's still struggle to match SWT's 159 fleet in terms or reliablility.

A TOC needs to attract passengers to earn money and in many cases they have been victims of their own successes. Yes, there may be overcrowding on some services, but it is only because of the massive upturn in passenger numbers that were not predicted.

No they have enjoyed the boom bust cycle, just like BR was in the 1980's!

It would appear then that passengers not only like the "dog's dinner" they are presented with, but more and more want to join in the feeding every year.

We have little choice in the matter, people have moved further away from the major cities as the can't afford the house prices in the centre. They would rather pay for a 15 minute ride than be stuck in a car for 30 minutes.

It makes me wonder why such huge year on year patronage was not possible under BR. In fact, the provincial sector haemmorraged money throughout most of its existence, only being kept in business by the first class market BR pandered to.

The regional railways franchises still haemmorrage money. It is a commonly known fact that the gross subsidy we pay for the railways is now 3x what we used to pay under BR. The railways cost us a lot more than they used to do!

Petrol prices have now dipped and rail tickets have gotten more expensive.

I don't see the M62 getting less busy between Leeds and Manchester even though passenger journeys on pennine metals have increased.

I am sure this will be reflecting in the next set of passenger count figure, I am sure it will at least stagnate if not fall during 2009.

There has to be some other factor. Maybe the fact that trains are new, clean,

Don't believe the spin here, trains are clean? I have noticed no difference here, you still get trains that don't get cleaned all day! The commutor routes are abused by thier passengers a lot more than the IC routes, but back in BR's days the IC routes were spotless as well!

more punctual

More punctual? That is due to the extra padding in the timetable that keeps creaping in, journeys on IC routes are now slower than they used to be under BR. It is easier to keep a train that has been slowed down on route on time. Just to make sure just add lots of recovery time between the last 2 stations. I frequently use the 1600 Edinburgh - London service to connect with a train at Newark, it should arrive at 1917 but often arrives at say 1925. You watch the EMT local service pass (it left at 1924), do I care that it arrived within 10 minutes of its time at London? No I care that I am stuck at Newark and need to get a taxi back from Lincoln and arrive home nearly 1 hour late! Under BR my connection would have been held, is this progress? I don't think so!

and more regular than they have been previously.

True on the primary routes, but I am sure BR would have improved them as well. Try telling that to anyone that lives on a secondary route. Most lines in Lincolnshire have a worse service now then they did before privatisation. The one I live on has 30% less trains, they don't connect very well with the mainline. You used to be able to travel direct to Birmingham in 1996, now it takes 2 changes and takes twice as long.

I do not think it is a coincidence that passengers consistently clamour for a better service and when they get it, numbers increase. BR catered for first class as that was where the money was made. That just isn't a viable option now and passengers are finally reaping the benefits.

I totally disagree this this statement, rural routes didn't have first class but they were part of a national network and waited for inter-city connections, those days are gone. Also the way of recording passenger number have changed. People using 2 tickets to save money has increased the number of people shown to travel, but not the number of journeys. (ie my save £100 to travel between London and Newcastle by buying a London - Peterborough and Peterborough - Newcastle ticket) You make 1 journey it is recorded as 2. Likewise the refusal of many TOC to price AP tickets away from the station that thier services stops at. Again Cardiff - Market Rasen would be purchased by me as a Cardiff - Nottingham AP and singles from Nottingham - Market Rasen. 1 journey to me but recorded as 2 to the TOC's.

Don't believe the TOC's spin, I use the train as I can't be bothered looking for parking spaces in towns I have never been in before. The new trains thing is also a red herring, I know many people that prefer the refurbished mk3/mk4 to the voyagers on the East Coast. I know many people that will let a voyager pass and wait for the next mk3 / mk4 set. New trains do not always mean better comfort!

 

[Respite]

The truth

That just about sums everything up to me as well, well said.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

More punctual? That is due to the extra padding in the timetable that keeps creaping in, journeys on IC routes are now slower than they used to be under BR. It is easier to keep a train that has been slowed down on route on time.

So you agree that they are more punctual?

I think Failed Unit has completely missed the point here. I am fully aware of the problems at EMT, which I have not used out in the sticks myself. I am also aware of the problems with the Juniper fleet specifically.

Let me try and explain. I live around Leeds. When the lines out to Skipton and Ilkley were electrified some years ago, a number of class 308's were sent to work them. There was outcry in West Yorkshire that such old trains were being sent to work here. Outcry that never subsided throughout their time here. Personally, I found them to be a great improvement over the pacers they replaced on the route - I distinctly remember the large, bouncy seats with armrests. The slam doors were a total pain though. I was even on one that caught fire once. In 2001, they were replaced by 3-car class 333. Result? Boom! Passenger numbers skyrocket. Within 6 months they all needed a fourth car adding. These lines are now the busiest commuter lines in the North East.

These trains are nowhere near as comfortable to ride on (though I would never say they are uncomfortable), BUT they are new, clean and tell you where you are. Passengers like that. They also like their train to run on time. I am not saying that they all do - we haven't suddenly become Germany - but it is ridiculous to inconvenience more passengers just because one train is late. Better to have 10 angry passengers than 50. (Though it is best to have none at all).

And anyway, Lincoln will be getting its very own service to London next year!

 

[Failed Unit]

So you agree that they are more punctual?

I agree the are more punctual at thier final destination, But not more punctual overall. Big and very important difference for passengers using the service. If they want to measure PPM do it at every station, watch it fall below 50% very quickly!

I think Failed Unit has completely missed the point here. I am fully aware of the problems at EMT, which I have not used out in the sticks myself. I am also aware of the problems with the Juniper fleet specifically.

Not the first time I have missed the point , I don't know if the 333's had any problems, but the Turbostar and Electrostars didn't cover themselves in glory when they first appeared either.

In 2001, they were replaced by 3-car class 333. Result? Boom! Passenger numbers skyrocket. Within 6 months they all needed a fourth car adding. These lines are now the busiest commuter lines in the North East.

Do you know that this was solely down to the units and not the boom Leeds went through at the same time? I agree however if I had a job in Leeds and was looking for somewhere to commute from the type of train service on offer would be a factor in choosing where I want to live.

These trains are nowhere near as comfortable to ride on (though I would never say they are uncomfortable), BUT they are new, clean and tell you where you are. Passengers like that. They also like their train to run on time. I am not saying that they all do - we haven't suddenly become Germany - but it is ridiculous to inconvenience more passengers just because one train is late. Better to have 10 angry passengers than 50. (Though it is best to have none at all).

And anyway, Lincoln will be getting its very own service to London next year!

From my experience passengers prefer the mk4's to pendo's since they are both "new" trains as far as the average passenger is concerned. I know people that avoided the HST's on the ECML, now they are also "new" they are not as fussed anymore. However I am sure most people would rather sit on a pacer than stand on a turbostar I don't know anyone travelling from York - Edinburgh that would chose the voyager and they are not overcrowded on the section either. New isn't always what the passenger wants, comfort is and not staring at plastic and decent legroom is what you get in most seats on the mk3.

Just to clarify my example about not holding rural trains. If the 1924 Newark - Cleethorpes service doesn't wait for the mainline connection, then it has about 2 people on it and 50 angry people waiting, but it ran on-time and empty so that doesn't matter.

I am looking forward to the direct service to Lincoln from London, I just hope oneday we can have a direct train to Birmingham again, a route that was split to con PPM figures again.

I think you may get the idea that I feel too much emphisis is put on timekeeping to the detroment of the overall journey experience. Something that needs to change if they are going to get people to use the former regional journeys.

Lets have a look at XC since privatisation.
Some good stuff happened which may have never done so under BR. Birmingham - Reading, Bristol, Sheffeild and Manchester is now 1/2 hourly.
Many places have now lost direct services and they are forced to change and risk missing connections.
Many places have less seats on journey sets than previously. I am sure I have read that 2x 4car voyagers have less seats than the HST's they replaced so the hourly service gave people more real seats than they have now.

I know a lot of this is down to DaFT re-writing the franchise, but I wonder on former IC cross-country routes if someone from Carlisle is a happy bunny they have new trains or would they have prefered the direct service on a mk2 knowing they would get from A-B without worrying about changing...

I guess that is another interesting debate are for IC cross-country passengers really better off?

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I guess that is another interesting debate are for IC cross-country passengers really better off?

Sounds like a plan! Stay tuned for a new thread! I think I can already guess what is going to happen though!

 

[me123]

Lets have a look at the DMU fleet then.
170's - they needed new engines and the air con caught fire on several trips. Scotrail in the early years for example struggle to cover services as they rarely had enough sets in service to cover the diagrams.
...
Not a single one of the DMU fleet worked out the box, don't get me started on the EMU fleet, they also had major teething problems at the start. Yes they have then sorted now but for the first 3 - 4 years in service they were worse than the stock they replaced. Many new DMU's still struggle to match SWT's 159 fleet in terms or reliability.

But look at things now. The flawed 170 and 334 fleet are now amongst the most reliable in Scotland! I've never heard of a train being cancelled recently that was due to a train failure on one of these trains. This suggests to me that the trains were built hastily, but over the years they have become probably the hardest working trains on Scotrail's network. They operate the longest EMU and DMU services, hauling loads of passengers around. Perhaps the problem with new rolling stock is simply that it's all built too quickly to get them out to TOCs, and they need a "settling in" period before a full entry into passenger service?

I hope the 380s come in without huge problems. The 314s reliability has (I understand) been falling in recent months. [conspiracy]I wonder if this is Scotrail not investing as much in maintenance...[/conspiracy]. Could simply be because they're now old units that do lots of work each day, and old age is probably beginning to take its toll on them . I certainly hope it's not the former, as I think they should allow a few years to let the 380s settle in; just in case anything should go wrong.

Certainly Scotrail's fleet are now fantastic despite teething difficulties; so why hasn't this happened elsewhere?

 

[Failed Unit]

But look at things now. The flawed 170 and 334 fleet are now amongst the most reliable in Scotland! I've never heard of a train being cancelled recently that was due to a train failure on one of these trains.

I have on the Turbo's, or short forming due to set failures. But we have to also be realistic they are working pieces of equipment and they will fail from time to time.

This suggests to me that the trains were built hastily, but over the years they have become probably the hardest working trains on Scotrail's network. They operate the longest EMU and DMU services, hauling loads of passengers around. Perhaps the problem with new rolling stock is simply that it's all built too quickly to get them out to TOCs, and they need a "settling in" period before a full entry into passenger service?

My point was really to point out that when you build new trains the gremlins need ironing out. Things to me are no better or worse in that respect under BR. In the case of the 170's the orginal engines were just not upto it, but how are you supposed to find that out without introducing them to service? The found the problem and it has been sorted, but TLC is the best way of keeping units happy. For whatever reason SWT's 159's are the most reliable DMU fleet in the UK. As you say the longer settling in period is probably what is needed, a luxary we don't seem to want in the UK.

Looking at the DMU's in recent years I don't think any of them have been hitch free, although I can't think of any major problems with the 156's or 185's.

Not sure why Scotrails fleet is better than XC's, I suppose we would need to look at the maintenance records to know that...

 

[stut]

I think, from a huge number of passengers' point of view, what they miss most is affordable flexible and walk-up fares.

Yes, Advance tickets are cheaper than these can be, and yes they're popular, but the current perception that the railways are expensive comes from people expecting flexibility from the railways - and they're just not getting it. Great - a train every 20 minutes from Brum or Manc to London, but most people who can take advantage of the regular schedule are those who aren't paying their own way.

 

[me123]

Not sure why Scotrails fleet is better than XC's, I suppose we would need to look at the maintenance records to know that...

Easy: we do maintenance! A lot of trains are scheduled to visit Haymarket for maintenance each day. OK, not all trains are worked on but the option is there. And there's quite light Sunday services that allows a lot of time at Haymarket.

To a lesser extent, they can also spend a bit of time in Eastfield. No maintenance here, but a break from service and some TLC might also do the trick. Just cleaning and fueling there I think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think, from a huge number of passengers' point of view, what they miss most is affordable flexible and walk-up fares.

Yes, Advance tickets are cheaper than these can be, and yes they're popular, but the current perception that the railways are expensive comes from people expecting flexibility from the railways - and they're just not getting it. Great - a train every 20 minutes from Brum or Manc to London, but most people who can take advantage of the regular schedule are those who aren't paying their own way.

I'd like to have seen Virgin introduce some cheap off-peak walk-up fares to allow people to take advantage of this. Of course, these would be heavily restricted but it would get people on the trains.

Still, the £66.10 OPR/£40.40 from Manchester and Birmingham respectively isn't too bad for a walk up fare. Whilst I would try for AP tickets, the price wouldn't put me off, and as I have a railcard it's under 50 quid. I'd like to see you drive to London and back for that price. The off peak fares aren't prohibitively expensive, but the peak time ones most certainly are!

Then again, Virgin seem to be quite cheap for the most part. Compare that to NXEC or, worse still, XC and you'll see some really expensive fares!

 

[87015]

Then again, Virgin seem to be quite cheap for the most part. Compare that to NXEC or, worse still, XC and you'll see some really expensive fares!

Virgin were very bad for abolishing CDRs almost as soon as they got in, I don't know if GNER did the same on the east coast but its always been very expensive anyway.

 

[Aictos]

While I don't remember much about the NSE era, I do remember the Regional Railways and InterCity eras very well.

Does anyone remember the InterCity Mural of a Class 91 that used to be on the wall of the booking office in Peterborough where you could buy your advance tickets etc...

Shame it went, would have loved to have acquired that masterpiece.