BR driver education

[HighlandSpot]

Hello all,

Perhaps a silly question, but I was curious how education affected one's pay grade and promotion as a driver in BR days. What was the average education level for BR locomotive drivers (not managers)? What were the requirements BR had in place?

 

[Gloster]

I would say that education level had no effect at all, unless and until a driver wanted to go on into supervisory or management posts. I am not sure about formal requirements, which may have got a bit stricter over the years, but general health and fitness would probably be more important. However, a driver must have had satisfactory reading competence to cope with the rule book, basic maths, and be able to write adequately. Even in the 1980s I came across drivers, not all of them very old, who read and wrote slowly. I have a feeling that BR may have had a very basic exam for those that didn’t have formal qualifications: I had O-Levels, which were more than adequate.

 

[HighlandSpot]

I would say that education level had no effect at all, unless and until a driver wanted to go on into supervisory or management posts. I am not sure about formal requirements, which may have got a bit stricter over the years, but general health and fitness would probably be more important. However, a driver must have had satisfactory reading competence to cope with the rule book, basic maths, and be able to write adequately. Even in the 1980s I came across drivers, not all of them very old, who read and wrote slowly. I have a feeling that BR may have had a very basic exam for those that didn’t have formal qualifications: I had O-Levels, which were more than adequate.

Did some drivers possess a university education upon becoming drivers? If they did want to go into supervisory posts, how long would they have stayed in the position of driver?

 

[Gloster]

Did some drivers possess a university education upon becoming drivers? If they did want to go into supervisory posts, how long would they have stayed in the position of driver?

I have never heard of a BR driver with a university education: most would have had O-Levels and, very occasionally, A-Levels, but some would have had no more than a few GCSEs, quite possibly not even that. There were, I think, two routes to supervisory jobs: either getting one of the BR management course places and doing a supervisory job as a first step before moving into management, or being an experienced member of staff who got a supervisory post on the basis of knowing the job thoroughly. Although there were exceptions, I don’t think that the second would normally lead to management. Some supervisors were relatively young, particularly in jobs that were NOT sought after and were taken by ambitious youngsters, but others could be much older. It was not uncommon for men in their fifties to take a supervisors job once they had paid off the mortgage and felt like taking it a bit easier: the higher pay rate was offset by the loss of all sorts of enhancements.

You must understand that much of the railway saw itself as being a separate world to other industries and you learnt on the job; your worth and suitability for promotion was largely judged on how long you had been doing the job and how well your supervisors and managers reckoned you did it. At the bottom promotion was pretty well based on seniority, but above the wages grades there was more selection, but paper certificates were only a minor indicator of your worth.

There were a number of signalmen with degrees, but that was partly because it is (or was) a job that appeals to certain mentalities. You are on your own in a small room for up to twelve hours and may have no visitors.

N.b. I was a signalman, so my knowledge of drivers is just what I picked up.

EDIT: the word NOT added and highlighted.

 

[Magdalia]

Hello all,

Perhaps a silly question, but I was curious how education affected one's pay grade and promotion as a driver in BR days. What was the average education level for BR locomotive drivers (not managers)? What were the requirements BR had in place?

Academic qualifications, credentialism and professionalisation are a modern phenomenon.

In the days of steam the qualification was physical: being able to perform heavy manual labour, particularly shovelling coal into a firebox.

Most drivers would have left school without academic qualifications, started as cleaners, then worked their way up through firing to driving. They would have needed to read and write, because the railway was rules based, but they learned how locomotives worked while cleaning on the shed, and how to drive from their driving mates once they made it onto the footplate as a fireman.

That began to change with the Modernisation Plan, where drivers and firemen had to learn new technology very quickly, with more emphasis on formal training.

 

[Efini92]

Did some drivers possess a university education upon becoming drivers? If they did want to go into supervisory posts, how long would they have stayed in the position of driver?

It’s unlikely any did, most went straight into the footplate line of promotion straight from school.
There was also a maximum age for becoming a secondman, I think it was 21 or 22.

 

[6Gman]

Academic qualifications, credentialism and professionalisation are a modern phenomenon.

In the days of steam the qualification was physical: being able to perform heavy manual labour, particularly shovelling coal into a firebox.

Most drivers would have left school without academic qualifications, started as cleaners, then worked their way up through firing to driving. They would have needed to read and write, because the railway was rules based, but they learned how locomotives worked while cleaning on the shed, and how to drive from their driving mates once they made it onto the footplate as a fireman.

That began to change with the Modernisation Plan, where drivers and firemen had to learn new technology very quickly, with more emphasis on formal training.

Quite correct.

My father left school at the minimum age (13 I think) in the 1930s with no qualifications. Joined the railway in 1947 as a Cleaner; ended up as a Driver, rated highly enough to work various high profile trains (was offered but declined the Royal Train).

 

[Roger1973]

I think I did look at the 'traction trainee' option when I left school, but didn't pursue it. In the late 80s, leaving school at 16 was much more common, and going to university much less so then.

Fairly sure that traction trainee was open to 16 year olds, maybe with a few GCSEs (possibly at CSE pass level - GCSE replaced O Levels and CSEs around then)

While there must have been some exceptions, I can't see train driving having much appeal to anyone who had been to university (or their parents) in that era - it was not seen as a well paid or 'aspirational' job then.

I'm fairly sure that BR had some sort of graduate management trainee scheme.

 

[Welshman]

From reading various reminiscences, I gather there were mutual improvement classes, held on a Saturday/Sunday morning. Footpatemen who wished to improve their skills were welcome to attend in their own free time, and the classes were given by more experienced footplatemen in their own time. The company would provide materials and meeting facilities, but there was no financial incentive to attend or teach.
This, along with personal experience, seems to be the limit of in-service training.

 

[Magdalia]

I'm fairly sure that BR had some sort of graduate management trainee scheme.

Yes they did, as did the "Big Four", but the graduate schemes were for future senior managers like the Civil Service "Fast Stream" or officer recruitment in the armed services. The Railway Clubs at Cambridge and Oxford were part of a well trodden path into railway senior management.

 

[Gloster]

I'm fairly sure that BR had some sort of graduate management trainee scheme.

You could also apply to what was, I think, basically the same scheme internally: it may have been the same scheme with a slightly different induction period. I know that when I was a 19-year old Leading Railman (Numbertaker) one copy of the circular informing staff about how to apply went on the staff room notice board and I got my own copy: I had O-Levels and had been to public school so the Station Master, or maybe the chief clerk, must have thought I would be promising material.

 

[Hadrian]

in 1973 the selection process for staff applicants to the Traffic Management Training Scheme included a day of internal railway exams (set by the Royal Society of Arts) followed some time later by an interview process spanning two days. The number of successful staff applicants was usually rather less than the number of graduates recruited. Following selection, the training (18 months) was the same for staff and graduates. Inevitably for staff entrants parts of the training duplicated their pre-training experience. Staff trainees were generally allocated for training to an Operating Division remote from where they had previously worked, but those who had worked in Regional offices before training found themselves returning for part of their training. So staff entrants were sometimes 'set to work' instead of having to endure the boredom of learning what they were already familiar with.

 

[Roger1973]

Yes they did, as did the "Big Four", but the graduate schemes were for future senior managers like the Civil Service "Fast Stream" or officer recruitment in the armed services. The Railway Clubs at Cambridge and Oxford were part of a well trodden path into railway senior management.

Yes - until relatively recently, graduate schemes were for the (potential) most senior 'officers' other than in 'the professions' where a relevant degree was essential.

Unlike now where with some organisations, you pretty much need a degree to get the sort of junior 'white collar' job that might have required a few GCSEs 30 years ago...

Somewhere there must be some statistics on what proportion of the population went to university at various points in time.

 

[Inversnecky]

Unlike now where with some organisations, you pretty much need a degree to get the sort of junior 'white collar' job that might have required a few GCSEs 30 years ago...

Somewhere there must be some statistics on what proportion of the population went to university at various points in time.

I think until the early/mid 1980s, it was not much more than 5%.

Of course what constituted a university changed about 20-25 years ago, when there was a system of a few universities plus colleges and polytechnics: all these colleges and polytechnics were able to rebrand as universities, so the older and more prestigious original universities are known now under the soubriquet of the ‘Russell Group’.

And the ‘credentialism’ referenced before I recall in comments I heard a few years ago about how degrees are expected now when in the 1980s two A levels would have sufficed.

Education is a great thing, but many now are obliged to take out massive debt to get that position those two A levels got you in the 80s.

 

[Dave W]

Yes they did, as did the "Big Four", but the graduate schemes were for future senior managers like the Civil Service "Fast Stream" or officer recruitment in the armed services. The Railway Clubs at Cambridge and Oxford were part of a well trodden path into railway senior management.

Interestingly, 8 or 9 years ago when I was looking, the entry requirements to even apply for the Network Rail grad scheme were higher than the Fast Stream has ever been. Network Rail wanted 280 UCAS points (2 Bs and a C at A Level) plus a 2:1, often in a specialist degree area. Whilst some of the Fast Stream schemes require specialist degrees, most are looking for a 2:2 (or a 2:1 at most) in pretty much anything you'd like. Still widely regarded as one of the country's best grad schemes, apparently!

I did reach the final stage of the Chiltern management trainee application process; it was at a hotel opposite Lords. I'd never done an "assessment day" back then and fluffed the group seession (I've since gone on to assess such days for Fast Streamers (yes I did end up on it myself) and know the hoops to jump through like the back of my hand - wish I knew then what I do now!!!)

 

[KeithMcC]

I applied to the engineering management scheme in the 1970s. Great first interview (by RHN Hardy!), but the 2 day selection session at The Grove was a bit harder and it was apparent that an interest in railways was not something they were looking for!

 

[Magdalia]

Interestingly, 8 or 9 years ago when I was looking, the entry requirements to even apply for the Network Rail grad scheme were higher than the Fast Stream has ever been. Network Rail wanted 280 UCAS points (2 Bs and a C at A Level) plus a 2:1, often in a specialist degree area. Whilst some of the Fast Stream schemes require specialist degrees, most are looking for a 2:2 (or a 2:1 at most) in pretty much anything you'd like. Still widely regarded as one of the country's best grad schemes, apparently!

When I was at University the Civil Service Fast Stream was Firsts and Upper Seconds only.

 

[Inversnecky]

When I was at University the Civil Service Fast Stream was Firsts and Upper Seconds only.

I wonder how this has been refined. When I was at uni, there was maybe one first a year, occasionally two, many a year with none, in my subject area.

A few years ago I knew a student who when to a local university, and got a first. I said well done, did anyone else get one too: yes, she said, ten!

Sadly it’s become rather devalued in recent years, it seems, like with school grades, they have to introduce A star and whatnot to try to separate the best.

 

[dk1]

Having left school with no qualifications even BR had certain rules about going into clerical grades. Although I was a signalman at the time I had to sit a clerical exam. It wasn’t that difficult but luckily someone in HR (Personel in old money) slipped me a copy a few days before so I already had the answers

 

[Route115?]

It varied over time but I remember that the requirement to be a driver included report writing although you only had to be "fair" whereas an applicant had to rate "good" in the other categories. So literacy was important.

Prior to dieselisation there was a line of promotion, cleaner, fireman then driver. There were very few graduates and I doubt that many would want to become a cleaner. Earnings only became serious when you reached a link that included mileage turns. Things are very different now and I have known a PhD working for the railway switch to driving (and probably see an increase in earning).

I joined a B.R. training scheme in 1981 and I would reckon that the majority were not graduates though this may not have been true for the General Management scheme.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Way back in the early 70s when I left school, a fellow pupil and I applied for jobs on British Rail. I passed the clerical exam and ended up working in ticket offices and planning, my mate failed and ended up working as a junior railman before transferring to the motive power department. I was told by the person who interviewed me that I was far to clever to be a driver!