Boxing Day Trains

[221129]

Thanks for all your responses, it is a shame that people from within the industry are so intemperate about using a forum to discuss improvements to their own industry. Saying that something could not be done because it is not in the contract is not really a sufficient answer as contracts can be changed over time (by agreement). A forum is meant to be for discussion not just shutting people up if they don't agree with you.

I am leaving this forum now as it has sadly confirmed my experience as an almost daily rail user that the industry lets itself down when it comes to even considering improvements for the public that pay for its service. Add that to the daily operational problems that we face....

i do agree with the colleague that lobbying those in power is probably a better use of energy but I think like most people I will just put up with a poor service and little prospect of improvements and sadly use my car whenever I can.

I wish you all well particularly those that work on the railways often in difficult circumstances.

Well perhaps in future don't re start a yearly debate with a slightly antagonistic post. Just a helpful suggestion.

 

[Darandio]

Thanks for all your responses, it is a shame that people from within the industry are so intemperate about using a forum to discuss improvements to their own industry.

But many within the industry (including members here) are out there working right now to improve their industry. In fact, there are over 30,000 of them working over christmas. It's very convenient how people forget that.

 

[dk1]

NHS staff work as required to meet the needs of the service.

A concept many here are struggling to understand.

In exactly the same way some struggle to understand what a contract of employment stands for.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Loads of NHS staff rarely if ever work Christmas Day/ Boxing Day.

Try getting a GP appointment, or a prescription renewed, or a dentist appointment, or out-patients or an audiology appointment or ......

Thanks mate - my wife has been out all day on local calls - on call , and just gone out again on a delivery (midwife) in West Herts. It is pouring with rain with snow forecast.....

 

[Mintona]

I’ve spent most of today sat at home doing nothing. If they’d wanted me to work I probably would have done it with suitable incentive. But I don’t think the sums add up to make a Boxing Day service worthwhile, so it’s probably not going to happen.

 

[1e10]

Thanks mate - my wife has been out all day on local calls - on call , and just gone out again on a delivery (midwife) in West Herts. It is pouring with rain with snow forecast.....

Is she not able to have a word with her union? (joking)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In regard to the previous post - she is "covering" unavailable staff on the roster.

And yes , as a railwayman I have not only covered the whole of the Xmas period on call , but turned out on Boxing Day - once to assist in the re railing of a derailed train. So entitled to have a little rant....thank you.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Is she not able to have a word with her union? (joking)

If you have a wife or a partner in labour - let us know please ,....

 

[GB]

In regard to the previous post - she is "covering" unavailable staff on the roster.

And yes , as a railwayman I have not only covered the whole of the Xmas period on call , but turned out on Boxing Day - once to assist in the re railing of a derailed train. So entitled to have a little rant....thank you.

Your wife is working (fair play to her) just the same as there are many railway folk working, that doesn't make what 6Gman said any less true.

 

[6Gman]

Lets be real please - loads of NHS staff work Christmas and Boxing day.

I'm well aware of that. My spouse worked in the NHS and - I would estimate - worked 60% of Christmas Days and ditto on Boxing Day (and a higher proportion of New Year's Eve/ Day). But plenty of NHS staff don't.

I was making the point that saying rail staff should work on Boxing Day because NHS staff do is a bit naïve.

 

[SquireBev]

I am leaving this forum now...

 

[Darandio]

I am leaving this forum now

Because everyone doesn't agree with your views? Grow up.

 

[Mag_seven]

Why is the Boxing Day timetable so poor? I understand that engineering work takes place, but only airport trains and the (Extremely) odd one or two services seem to run - for example, one I used today, the Stansted Express - which goes through Stratford, Cheshunt and Broxbourne, not stopping today, with no NR alternatives... With Stratford in particular, this diversion and train not stopping is a bit laughable considering how busy Westfield Shopping Precinct must be right now.

If you want to complain about no boxing day services write to the DfT - they specify there is no requirement for services to be run on boxing day in franchise specs.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I'm well aware of that. My spouse worked in the NHS and - I would estimate - worked 60% of Christmas Days and ditto on Boxing Day (and a higher proportion of New Year's Eve/ Day). But plenty of NHS staff don't.

Thanks for that - could have gone into a rant there - once called out to Harlesden on a Boxing Day - tube trains only running , to investigate a ligthing failure - one bulb gone in a staircase light - so the supposedly other lower down staff failed to respond. They got my wrath later on. As I as out , - I went and saw the other staff out - mainly anti- graffiti security staff and so on....

 

[SquireBev]

Because everyone doesn't agree with your views? Grow up.

Indeed.

"This isn't the echo chamber I was hoping for so I'm going to storm off in a huff."

Pathetic.

 

[6Gman]

Thanks mate - my wife has been out all day on local calls - on call , and just gone out again on a delivery (midwife) in West Herts. It is pouring with rain with snow forecast.....

Every sympathy - you will note I've pointed out above my own experience as the spouse of an NHS worker with 24/7 responsibilities.

Thanks for that - could have gone into a rant there - once called out to Harlesden on a Boxing Day - tube trains only running , to investigate a ligthing failure - one bulb gone in a staircase light - so the supposedly other lower down staff failed to respond. They got my wrath later on. As I as out , - I went and saw the other staff out - mainly anti- graffiti security staff and so on....

You sound like the sort of boss I'd have liked!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Thanks for that...

 

[6Gman]

Just to round off what I was trying to say regarding NHS staff / railway staff.

The reality in the NHS is that generally the staff in on Christmas Day/ Boxing Day are those involved in continuing care (ward staff, care staff, some community staff) or in emergency care (ambulance staff, on-call services, A&E ... and midwives ). What is termed "elective" - planned surgery, GP appointments, outpatients certainly don't feature on those two days.

On the railway a lot of staff will be in over the Christmas period - engineers, certain signallers (to get engineers' trains to and from site), loco staff (ditto), on-call management etc etc But should staff be required to come in so people can get to shops, or football matches, or to visit relatives?

That - surely - is the distinction.

 

[SquireBev]

But should staff be required to come in so people can get to shops, or football matches, or to visit relatives?

That - surely - is the distinction.

Exactly. Nobody NEEDS to go shopping today.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

There is a significant proven demand for local transport in cities on 26th December, for shopping and sporting events mostly.
A limited local bus service is usually offered to support this in most places, and light rail services and London Underground usually run.
A significant number of local trains do run on Merseyrail, to and from Glasgow and London Victoria, though some of these are bus replacement today. Chiltern Railways trialled something similar last year on the basis of serving shopping in Central London and at Bicester Village. It is being repeated this year apparently with financial support from the shopping centre owners.

The demand for services is almost entirely for shopping. The demand for sporting events only exists because the sporting bodies (mostly football) have abandoned a long-standing tradition of avoiding fixtures which require away fans to travel any distance. The remedy is in their own hands... As for the shoppers the problem is that to provide any meaningful rail service would require staffing spread over slightly more than a single shift meaning a need for almost normal staffing levels which has to be paid for. Unfortunately the demand for anything other than those shopping services is near non-existent. Add in the fact that everyone would expect off-peak fares to be valid all day and the economics just don't stack up. You mention subsidy from retailers which illustrates the point nicely.

Basically, local public transport services which are demand-responsive do offer a service on Boxing Day except national rail and the above exceptions.

National Rail is not at all demand responsive, it is franchise responsive! When the DfT decides Boxing Day services are worth adding further payment to the franchise agreements for then Boxing Day services will run. Clearly the DfT does not consider such funding to be worthwhile.

The railway is however choosing to offer a comprehensive local train service in England (except the North East) on 1st January despite there being fewer potential customers for it than on boxing day. New Year's Day is not nearly as established as a big shopping or major sporting day that I am aware. In Greater Manchester there are many commercial bus services running on 26th December and no trains whatsoever. There are almost no buses running on 1st January but a full weekday timetable of local trains is running. This gives you some idea of how out of it the railway industry is. As far as English local trains are concerned, it would be an improvement to flip the situation, so there is a very limited service on New Year's Day but a good service on Boxing Day. It's not like early morning service, high frequencies or peak extras would be required on either day.

Au contraire. There are many people who are able to have a genuine Christmas holiday but who are expected to be back at work immediately after New Year. These people generate a reasonable demand for longer-distance travel on New Year's Day which also needs local connections to be of any use. While it is certainly true that demand for travel on New Year's Day is minimal in the morning it picks up markedly in the afternoon and through the evening. As explained above the time spread of staffing needed to meet this demand is such that more than a single shift is required meaning that the near empty trains in the morning are being paid for anyway. So actually the difference between Boxing Day and New Year's Day services is entirely logical. However I have no doubt that if the decision to run or not run on either day was a purely commercial one then trains would not run on either day.

 

[Llanigraham]

No doubt there are likely many rail staff here on the defensive for not working boxing day, whilst out today enjoying the services and retail opportunities available thanks to those in the real world going out to work today

And those rail workers do NOT have Boxing Day included in their contract, therefore they don't have to work.
And I note I am NOT the first person to say that on here.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Did some sums a little way back -with the industry - as to what would be a "modest" Boxing Day service from say 0800 to 1900 service , pragmatically, on PSB routes outside major , routes - e.g one route to the West Midlands , to Bristol , Leeds etc - allowing for much enhanced pay to train crew /station staff etc ......turned out to be OK. A genuine social service - sort of paying for itself in cost benefit terms.

The DfT of course refused to consider it ....one wold not run ,for example most of the "regional" routes such as the Cumbrian Coast - (too many boxes to open) , but funnily enough the Cambrian was a runner ...

 

[fowler9]

I worked the last two days and it has been a massive pain in the neck that there has been next to no public transport. At the same time though I'm not up for forcing the bus and train drivers to work. I had no choice about working but I got double time plus time off in lieu. Also the company I work for go out of their way to make sure you can get in to work. In an ideal world I wouldn't work over Christmas but at the same time I am proud to back up the armed forces.

 

[Starmill]

National Rail is not at all demand responsive, it is franchise responsive!

I know, that was exactly the point I was attempting to make.

 

[ainsworth74]

And those rail workers do NOT have Boxing Day included in their contract, therefore they don't have to work.

Is that in dispute? I believe everyone is aware of that fact?

 

[Starmill]

There are many people who are able to have a genuine Christmas holiday but who are expected to be back at work immediately after New Year.

Interesting, how many workers are absolutely required at work on 1st Jan and not on 26th Dec? They're both bank holidays. There are a lot of people in Greater Manchester whose workplaces here are served by bus routes on 26th Dec but not on 1st Jan, which suggests that there is a critical mass of shoppers on Boxing Day and very, very few people travelling to work on New Year's Day.

Empirically there are also lots of commuter trains running empty on 1st Jan when it falls on a weekday. Northern are running the peak extras on New Year's Day on most routes despite almost nobody being at work or travelling long distance.

 

[Starmill]

So actually the difference between Boxing Day and New Year's Day services is entirely logical.

I couldn't disagree more. If this were true local trains in the North East would be provided, and InterCity serivces throughout the UK, not just in England and Wales. As with most things, it's this way because it's the way it has been for years. Logic does not enter into it.

It's clear that a further study of these effects is warranted and some re balancing should take place. It seems to me that fewer resources employed on New Years Day and more on Boxing Day would generate higher overall patronage for the railway. Of course, DfT who would have to test this out seem to have no interest in it at all. The range of timetables on offer on New Year's Day is also fascinating. Some operators run Sunday services or Saturday services, while others generally run the service of whatever day it falls on. Some choose a late start and some don't, some run no services in part of their operating area, and of course ScotRail and T&W Metro run no service at all.

 

[6Gman]

Interesting, how many workers are absolutely required at work on 1st Jan and not on 26th Dec? They're both bank holidays. There are a lot of people in Greater Manchester whose workplaces here are served by bus routes on 26th Dec but not on 1st Jan, which suggests that there is a critical mass of shoppers on Boxing Day and very, very few people travelling to work on New Year's Day.

Empirically there are also lots of commuter trains running empty on 1st Jan when it falls on a weekday. Northern are running the peak extras on New Year's Day on most routes despite almost nobody being at work or travelling long distance.

That's either a franchise commitment, or Northern are stupid.

Not mutually exclusive of course.

 

[bb21]

This is discussed every year and causes arguments every time. Please refer all relevant arguments to a past thread before this one descends the same way.