Who said anything about being special? Its called contract of employment.
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Boxing Day: Should there be scheduled trains?
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Who said anything about being special? Its called contract of employment.
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Well the railway workers seem to think they're special and that they "deserve" a day off, even though plenty of other people have to work.
Contracts of employment get re-negotiated all the time. Personally I think it's more than a little bit odd that in the 21st Century the contract of a person working in an area like public transport precludes working on certain days.
A highly contentious topic ! My own views (for what they are worth) are as follows :
Yesterday I spent £120 on minicab fares for a 2 x 40 minute 80 mile return journey to visit my elderly mother and keep her company at xmas. I would usually make this trip by train (from Sidcup, SE London) and tube (she lives at the far eastern end of the Central Line). I don't have a car and no lift was possible, so a minicab was the only option. Not all Xmas / Boxing day journeys are for shopping. Many people will be visiting relatives or travelling to work (including very many shop workers).
A few years ago there were some limited - but very useful - Boxing day services on the Southeastern lines to Dartford, I seem to recall an hourly service on one of the three lines (Bexleyheath line). This may have been in Connex days. This wasn't perfect but - as the Bexleyheath line is in the middle of the three Dartford lines - it was logical and enabled many people to travel with bus or other connections. The usual Sunday services are half hourly, Saturday quarter hourly daytime, so the service was limited, but it was helpful. I don't know how many staff it takes to run an hourly service and I appreciate that running a service means much more than simply providing drivers - although I seem to recall most of the stations having no or the bare minimum of staffing - and that it has knock effects on signalling staff resources etc
My point is that - with the exception of lines where engineering works are taking place over the holiday period - I consider that some attempt should be made to run limited services over main inter-city routes and the main 'commuter' routes into major cities such as London, Birmingham, Manchester. A balance needs to be struck between the need for staff to have a proper holiday break and with the needs of the travelling public.
Rail staff who do work should clearly be compensated for working on Boxing Day, whether financially or by time off in lieu. I suspect that there will be some staff who are content / willing to do a Boxing day shift and for whom it fits in with their personal circumstances, just as there will be some for whom it is a non-starter.
The essential point is that railways are a public service and attempts should be made to provide that service.
I also feel the same about Xmas day.
Finally I should perhaps add that I am a civil servant, not a rail worker, and yes I get a few days (three) off at Xmas although I will be back at work on Friday. A few years ago I went through a period when I worked regular weekend overtime when it suited my personal circumstances and I welcomed the chance to (a) earn extra money and (b) get out of the house. I would not do it now because my circumstances have changed. But the point is that there is likely to be a minority of rail staff who don't mind a Boxing day shift - provided they are recompensed - and if this enables some sort of service to be provided then I am all in favour.
Yesterday I spent £120 on minicab fares for a 2 x 40 minute 80 mile return journey to visit my elderly mother and keep her company at xmas. I would usually make this trip by train (from Sidcup, SE London) and tube (she lives at the far eastern end of the Central Line). I don't have a car and no lift was possible, so a minicab was the only option. Not all Xmas / Boxing day journeys are for shopping. Many people will be visiting relatives or travelling to work (including very many shop workers).
A few years ago there were some limited - but very useful - Boxing day services on the Southeastern lines to Dartford, I seem to recall an hourly service on one of the three lines (Bexleyheath line). This may have been in Connex days. This wasn't perfect but - as the Bexleyheath line is in the middle of the three Dartford lines - it was logical and enabled many people to travel with bus or other connections. The usual Sunday services are half hourly, Saturday quarter hourly daytime, so the service was limited, but it was helpful. I don't know how many staff it takes to run an hourly service and I appreciate that running a service means much more than simply providing drivers - although I seem to recall most of the stations having no or the bare minimum of staffing - and that it has knock effects on signalling staff resources etc
My point is that - with the exception of lines where engineering works are taking place over the holiday period - I consider that some attempt should be made to run limited services over main inter-city routes and the main 'commuter' routes into major cities such as London, Birmingham, Manchester. A balance needs to be struck between the need for staff to have a proper holiday break and with the needs of the travelling public.
Rail staff who do work should clearly be compensated for working on Boxing Day, whether financially or by time off in lieu. I suspect that there will be some staff who are content / willing to do a Boxing day shift and for whom it fits in with their personal circumstances, just as there will be some for whom it is a non-starter.
The essential point is that railways are a public service and attempts should be made to provide that service.
I also feel the same about Xmas day.
Finally I should perhaps add that I am a civil servant, not a rail worker, and yes I get a few days (three) off at Xmas although I will be back at work on Friday. A few years ago I went through a period when I worked regular weekend overtime when it suited my personal circumstances and I welcomed the chance to (a) earn extra money and (b) get out of the house. I would not do it now because my circumstances have changed. But the point is that there is likely to be a minority of rail staff who don't mind a Boxing day shift - provided they are recompensed - and if this enables some sort of service to be provided then I am all in favour.
You mean contracts such as those that preclude Sundays. Yeah but they got negotiated and agreed.
I personally don't think that rail staff should receive any special perks. They don't but their union reps and employers agreed to this deal and that is that.
merlodlliw
Established Member
And I thought the trains were running for the benefit of the customer, Oh silly me, however I don't care what the rate is, they are driving trains on boxing day to shift pax
They are but people go to work for a living not purely for the benefit of passengers. A bit of an odd point to make?
Beveridges
Established Member
Anyone who drives on Boxing day is usually paid mega money at least 3 times the norm, like I did last on Boxing day last year. I have no problem with working it with that sort of money and that I got an extra day annual leave out of it that I can take any other time.
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MidnightFlyer
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Out of interest, when was the last time general services ran on Boxing Day outside of Glasgow?
Ascot
Established Member
If your employer goes through the proper channels then they can re-issue your contract as has been done many times in both public and private sector.
On a side note, my contract states I have boxing day off but it doesn't stop them putting me on a 6am boxing day flight (airport by 4am) unpaid to work on the 27th. It can be worse for you lot.
On a side note, my contract states I have boxing day off but it doesn't stop them putting me on a 6am boxing day flight (airport by 4am) unpaid to work on the 27th. It can be worse for you lot.
Trains running obviously are running for customers, I was merely questioning your point that drivers are working them for the same reason.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It can be worse but that is where a good union rep comes in. What you have written would not be tolerated in most rail companies.
dangie
On Moderation
Just retired from 39 years in the Power Industry working almost every Christmas. That felt bad.
Now just spent first full Christmas at home with the family.
That was worse :cry::cry::cry:
Give me Christmas working anyday........
Now just spent first full Christmas at home with the family.
That was worse :cry::cry::cry:
Give me Christmas working anyday........
Polarbear
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Either 1978 or 1979 if I recall?
313103
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Conductor Grade Conditions for London Overground Conductors state that if you are required to work on Christmas day and Boxing day time you will be paid at Time plus Time and will be rostered on a purely voluntary basis.
Strangely though since that agreement was signed off in 1997, Silverlink and London Overground have decided for whatever reason not to run a service on those days. Not then the staff's fault that a company doesnt run services on those days is it? You should have asked Silverlink Managers from 1997 until 2006 and now you should ask London Overground Managers since 2007 why they dont run a service on Christmas day or Boxing day.
Strangely though since that agreement was signed off in 1997, Silverlink and London Overground have decided for whatever reason not to run a service on those days. Not then the staff's fault that a company doesnt run services on those days is it? You should have asked Silverlink Managers from 1997 until 2006 and now you should ask London Overground Managers since 2007 why they dont run a service on Christmas day or Boxing day.
Tom C
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We have this arguement every year on this forum........and its really starting to get boring.
Someone mentioned why Southern are running on the Brighton Main Line. That could be because people have volunteered to work and if they want to then good luck to them. I think that many people who deem themselves the moral experts on railway matters concider the lack of Boxing Day services down to staff when in fact the TOC's could quite easily find volunteers but they choose no to because the huge amount of engineering work and large cost renders the exercise pointless.
I actually worked on Boxing Day three years ago when a service was running and it was a completely pointless and expensive exercise on one of the busiest lines in the country that was literally carrying fresh air around.
Someone mentioned why Southern are running on the Brighton Main Line. That could be because people have volunteered to work and if they want to then good luck to them. I think that many people who deem themselves the moral experts on railway matters concider the lack of Boxing Day services down to staff when in fact the TOC's could quite easily find volunteers but they choose no to because the huge amount of engineering work and large cost renders the exercise pointless.
I actually worked on Boxing Day three years ago when a service was running and it was a completely pointless and expensive exercise on one of the busiest lines in the country that was literally carrying fresh air around.
E16 Cyclist
Member
Now I'm contracted to work Christmas Day and Boxing Day at flat rate which my employer quite rightly holds me to and I've agreed that contract and signed it. But those staff who do not have that in their contract are equally entitled to stick to the terms of their contract of they sowish. The onus i think is on the train operating companies to look for volunteers if they want to operate a Boxing Day service and negotiate with those who are wishing to volunteer, the fact they don't suggests to me that it's not in their interest financially to do so. Whether people like it or not they need to remember the railways are now a private industry and if there was money to be made they would have done this years ago.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This actually made me smile
Presumably, Boxing Day operation is not required under the franchise agreement. So, ultimately it is down to the DfT to mandate it, similar to how they force TOCs to run all their other services. Of course, that need public funding.
Bevan Price
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It is definitely not a tradition to have no trains on Boxing Day. As late as the 1960's, they even ran some relief trains in the afternoon / evening, to get people home and able to work the next day, after visiting relatives & friends for Christmas. Some rail staff may not have enjoyed working on Boxing Day, but they accepted it as part of their job.
Three things probably contributed to the stoppage of Bank Holiday train services:
(1) A BR desire not to pay enhanced rates to staff, and
(2) The gradual increase in annual leave for UK workers.
(3) Increase in car ownership.
Back in the 1960's, only a minority of workers got more than 15 days annual leave, and some only got 10 days. They did not want to waste a day's leave if they could return home on Boxing Day.
anthony263
Established Member
I agree about some routes not being profitable, however I do feel that some operators are not willing to test the waters so to speak.
I am sure there would be demand say between Oxford & London paddington perhaps using some of the class 166's or the class 180's rather than an 8 carriage HST unless of course it become obvious that a hst will be needed because of high demand.
I be very surprised if there wasnt any demand for a service between Cardiff Central & Bath via Bristol Temple Meads this could be an hourly shuttle running between 08:00 and 20:00
I am sure there would be demand say between Oxford & London paddington perhaps using some of the class 166's or the class 180's rather than an 8 carriage HST unless of course it become obvious that a hst will be needed because of high demand.
I be very surprised if there wasnt any demand for a service between Cardiff Central & Bath via Bristol Temple Meads this could be an hourly shuttle running between 08:00 and 20:00
brianthegiant
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A number of posters have mentioned the benefits of using the xmas week for major engineering work which would otherwise have a greater impact if it were spread over numerous weekend possessions. I think in many ways this is the strongest argument in favour of the xmas & boxing day shutdown, because it avoids circular arguments about workers/unions/shareholders/contracts/customs/railway as a public service/etc/etc.
As an engineer I can see how a complete network shutdown is beneficial especially to work on complex junctions where multiple services would need bustitution. However there are a couple of possible flaws in this argument:
1) Network Rail and contractors have finite labour and equipment resources, so only a limited quantity of tracks, points, signals etc can be re-done at any one time. The industry as a whole will only buy in the resources they can find work for on a regular basis, no-one can afford to own plant which is only used for a week or so a year. So whilst (more or less) the entire network is shutdown on boxing day only a small % of it is actually being worked on. On this basis having specific shutdowns for specific tasks would seem to be a better use of the network as an asset ( on a purely financial level).
2) Where major work is required over a longer period of time, this often seems to be done during the summer holiday period, when loadings are also presumably lower over a longer period. The Nottingham Station blockade next summer would be an example. Hence the xmas week isn't a panacea of for major engineering work which avoids all other blockades.
sure a few people will disagree, but I thought I'd throw this perspective in the pot...
As an engineer I can see how a complete network shutdown is beneficial especially to work on complex junctions where multiple services would need bustitution. However there are a couple of possible flaws in this argument:
1) Network Rail and contractors have finite labour and equipment resources, so only a limited quantity of tracks, points, signals etc can be re-done at any one time. The industry as a whole will only buy in the resources they can find work for on a regular basis, no-one can afford to own plant which is only used for a week or so a year. So whilst (more or less) the entire network is shutdown on boxing day only a small % of it is actually being worked on. On this basis having specific shutdowns for specific tasks would seem to be a better use of the network as an asset ( on a purely financial level).
2) Where major work is required over a longer period of time, this often seems to be done during the summer holiday period, when loadings are also presumably lower over a longer period. The Nottingham Station blockade next summer would be an example. Hence the xmas week isn't a panacea of for major engineering work which avoids all other blockades.
sure a few people will disagree, but I thought I'd throw this perspective in the pot...
I hate to spoil these myths that nothing runs on boxing day because drivers don't want to but there are a huge number if train drivers at work today. I saw a volunteer list at one depot on my TOC for a handful of late afternoon and night shifts today and there were more than quadruple the number of names volunteering to work than there were jobs to cover-and today isn't vastly different in terms or remuneration to any other bank holiday.
There will be numerous drivers starting around now who will be prepping trains, marshalling units, ferrying sets into platforms, running empty cars between depots etc. to get things ready for start of a pretty much normal weekday or enhanced Saturday service tomorrow.
And I'm pretty certain from experience that none of the TOCs who run a 'voluntary' service today will have struggled to get drivers. The last time I worked Boxing Day (a few years back) I hardly had any passengers all day and that was a triple Croydon-london stopper.
There will be numerous drivers starting around now who will be prepping trains, marshalling units, ferrying sets into platforms, running empty cars between depots etc. to get things ready for start of a pretty much normal weekday or enhanced Saturday service tomorrow.
And I'm pretty certain from experience that none of the TOCs who run a 'voluntary' service today will have struggled to get drivers. The last time I worked Boxing Day (a few years back) I hardly had any passengers all day and that was a triple Croydon-london stopper.
E16 Cyclist
Member
I worked Boxing Day at Paddington last year and there just wasn't the demand, NRE were rather unhelpfully (as usual tickets weren't valid) giving the heathrow express bus and the railair from heathrow as journey options and there was only a handful of people wanting/needing to use this route all day. The most demanded location all day was actually Southall where the majority of locals don't celebrate christmas and even then this was scattered throughout the day and not at any particular time.
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Tom C
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And the controllers who are balancing the depots for tomorrow mornings service, and the signallers who are all in today, and the track gangs and S&T who are out on engineering work..........
We ran trains on for three years on Boxing Day and on all three years the trains were averaging 5-10 people per train and this was a service serving London airports.
I think a lot of this is down to people who are outraged at the terms and conditions enjoyed by railwayman and moaning that they would dream of such things. But instead of trying to improve things from their own standpoint, they want workers such are Railwayman to have things taken off them......
What a strange country we live in!
Hyphen
Member
Well I can't speak for the railways but the local buses were certainly running today - and they were all standing room only! Admittedly only a half hourly service 9-5 on their 'core' routes (TrentBarton, and normally every 10 mins on our route) but I've never seen so many people stood around the local bus stops!
My dad is a community carer (visits disabled people in their homes) - for the past 10 years or so (since his kids grew up!) he's actively volunteered to work a full Christmas day to relieve his colleagues with younger kids so they can spend time with family.
As an IT worker I'm a little like P-Way staff - Xmas is the only time of the year nobody's using the IT systems, so it's my job to update, upgrade, refresh, renew without disturbing anyone!
My dad is a community carer (visits disabled people in their homes) - for the past 10 years or so (since his kids grew up!) he's actively volunteered to work a full Christmas day to relieve his colleagues with younger kids so they can spend time with family.
As an IT worker I'm a little like P-Way staff - Xmas is the only time of the year nobody's using the IT systems, so it's my job to update, upgrade, refresh, renew without disturbing anyone!
Some observations while out today in South London.
With the combination of a tube strike and London Overground being closed, the 53/453 buses which run along the Old Kent Road which are the alternative artery between New Cross/Gate and Elephant and Castle stations into the West End were chock o'block in both directions, a Saturday bus service would have been viable today.
Buses were also fully loaded in my area, which is served by London Overground and Southern which didn't run services from my local station, although it must have been frustrating in Peckham when an 8 car 455 went past the station fast from Tulse Hill to London Bridge. I'd say there were at least 6-8 pax per car.
In the future, I can see London Overground running at least 4tph from New Cross and New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction (8tph from Surrey Quays to Dalston) over the TfL owned part of the East London line, although this will still require NR signalmen to work.
With the combination of a tube strike and London Overground being closed, the 53/453 buses which run along the Old Kent Road which are the alternative artery between New Cross/Gate and Elephant and Castle stations into the West End were chock o'block in both directions, a Saturday bus service would have been viable today.
Buses were also fully loaded in my area, which is served by London Overground and Southern which didn't run services from my local station, although it must have been frustrating in Peckham when an 8 car 455 went past the station fast from Tulse Hill to London Bridge. I'd say there were at least 6-8 pax per car.
In the future, I can see London Overground running at least 4tph from New Cross and New Cross Gate to Dalston Junction (8tph from Surrey Quays to Dalston) over the TfL owned part of the East London line, although this will still require NR signalmen to work.
Presumably because most people think nothing runs so wouldnt have turned up anyway.
thelongestroad
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I have colleagues that don't like Christmas so they can, by all means, go to work whilst I sit at home on Boxing Day.
chuckles1066
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As usual, the railways are mssing a trick.
Boxing Day, apparently, is the biggest shopping day in the UK calendar.
Imagine your local train operator publicising a return trip to London for, say £10.
You'd have people queueing to grab tickets just to be able to say they'd "done" the Oxford Street sales on Boxing Day.
Oh, FGW? The idea is copyright (c) chuckles1066 so don't be trying it next year.
Most NR signalmen will have been working Xmas day and Boxing Day anyway-engineering trains, possessions etc.
E16 Cyclist
Member
I'd agreed with you had National Rail Enquiries not advertised this as a way of getting to Reading and Oxford....
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