Boundary Zone tickets & High Speed

[RJ]

It can. For example I could say that Travelcards are not valid on FGW between Slough and Reading. Right? But a Boundary Zone X to Reading is valid, isn't it?

The simple fact is that the Boundary Zone 2 to Ashford ticket is valid from the boundary of Zone 2, and then from whichever is the relevant station to Ashford. Admittedly it is only valid if a Travelcard is held, but the Travelcard itself does not have to have validity on the section of track for which you are using the extension (after all that is why you are buying an extension).

If inboundary Travelcards are very specifically banned without exception on HS1, how can you use one to validate a BZ extension for use on HS1?

It's one of those things I just wouldn't do, I highly suspect that arguing the toss with ATOC and the SE Pricing Manager wouldn't get you very far either.

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't think "excesses" need to necessarily have the same validity as the original ticket they are extending. The whole point of an excess style ticket is to travel further or on different routes/trains/times than the original ticket held.

 

[MikeWh]

Well here's an interesting anomaly. Try searching for fares from Homerton to Ashford International on brfares.com. There are standard class fares, but all are routed "✠NOT VALID ON HS1". Then there are first class fares routed "✠ANY PERMITTED". However, should anyone be selling first class tickets for a journey where no first class accomodation exists? I know that you can cross London to the classic route and enjoy first class between London and Ashford, but the only tickets valid for use on HS1 are first class when the trains on that route are all standard class only.

 

[RJ]

Well here's an interesting anomaly. Try searching for fares from Homerton to Ashford International on brfares.com. There are standard class fares, but all are routed "✠NOT VALID ON HS1". Then there are first class fares routed "✠ANY PERMITTED". However, should anyone be selling first class tickets for a journey where no first class accomodation exists? I know that you can cross London to the classic route and enjoy first class between London and Ashford, but the only tickets valid for use on HS1 are first class when the trains on that route are all standard class only.

There's nothing to stop people using trains with First Class accomodation on the classic lines with the Any Permitted tickets. I suspect the Not valid on HS1 tickets + the supplement to validate them on HS1 would be cheaper than those First Class fares anyway.

 

[Mojo]

If inboundary Travelcards are very specifically banned without exception on HS1, how can you use one to validate a BZ extension for use on HS1?

I think he was trying to say because the Boundary of Zone two is crossed before you reach Stratford Int'l (i.e. on the HS1 section). In the example by yorkie, the boundary of Zone 2 for a customer travelling from Homerton on a Zone 1-2 Travelcard is past Hackney Wick.

 

[sheff1]

I'm confused by the suggestions that Boundary Zone tickets can only be sold/used as an extension to a Travelcard.

Surely I can purchase a ticket from Boundary Zone 2 to any station beyond the Zones, without holding a Travelcard of any description, and then commence my journey at a station in Zone 3 and travel to the destination station by any permitted route which does not involve travel in Zones 1/2.

 

[maniacmartin]

No sheff1, staff are only meant to sell them after confirming you have a travelcard (paper or on oyster). This is why you cannot buy them online or at a TVM.

 

[sheff1]

According to this http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=71693&highlight=boundary, they can be bought from a TVM (and from telesales).

 

[island]

You can purchase boundary zone tickets from TVMs operated by Southern, such as the one at Ham Street.

 

[soil]

It seems that there is nothing at all published about the validity of BZ tickets.

 

[barrykas]

Southeastern will likely tell you that, as is the case with Heathrow Express (Heathrow Airport being undeniably in Zone 6 on the Underground), Stratford International is outside the zones for ticketing purposes, and that is why 'in-boundary' Travelcards are not valid on HS1.

Which I think is inherently unfair, as the wording in The Manual implies that someone holding an 'out-boundary' Travelcard and a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 to somewhere served by High Speed can purchase an upgrade to use HS1, but someone holding an 'in-boundary' 1-6 Travelcard and extension can't. Or am I reading too much into the bit that says "If the passenger already holds an out boundary Travelcard, ensure that it covers all Zones 1-6. Travelcards for other Zones cannot be used to purchase supplements." ?

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Bungle73]

Southeastern will likely tell you that, as is the case with Heathrow Express (Heathrow Airport being undeniably in Zone 6 on the Underground), Stratford International is outside the zones for ticketing purposes, and that is why 'in-boundary' Travelcards are not valid on HS1.

The Heathrow extension isn't a National Rail route, that's why you cannot use a Travelcard on it.

Which I think is inherently unfair, as the wording in The Manual implies that someone holding an 'out-boundary' Travelcard and a ticket from Boundary Zone 6 to somewhere served by High Speed can purchase an upgrade to use HS1, but someone holding an 'in-boundary' 1-6 Travelcard and extension can't. Or am I reading too much into the bit that says "If the passenger already holds an out boundary Travelcard, ensure that it covers all Zones 1-6. Travelcards for other Zones cannot be used to purchase supplements." ?

Cheers,

Barry

Surely that cannot be correct? Is it not the case that the only Travelcards valid on the HS1 route are out-boundary ones that have an origin of a station that entails using the HS1 service, and that also show "Plus High Speed" under "Route" (or with a HS Upgrade ticket)?

Any other out-boundary Travelcard would surely be treated as any other in-boundary Travelcard off its origin route?

That's how I'd expect it to work.

 

[John @ home]

Is it not the case that the only Travelcards valid on the HS1 route are out-boundary ones that have an origin of a station that entails using the HS1 service, and that also show "Plus High Speed" under "Route" (or with a HS Upgrade ticket)?

No. I see no evidence that restricts the use of, for example, a Travelcard

GRAVESEND - WATFORD JN route LONDON ZONES 1-6 7TS £112.20

It seems to me that this ticket is valid by both HS and Classic routes between Gravesend and London, so it doesn't entail using the HS1 service.

 

[RJ]

Surely that cannot be correct? Is it not the case that the only Travelcards valid on the HS1 route are out-boundary ones that have an origin of a station that entails using the HS1 service, and that also show "Plus High Speed" under "Route" (or with a HS Upgrade ticket)?

Any other out-boundary Travelcard would surely be treated as any other in-boundary Travelcard off its origin route?

That's how I'd expect it to work.

I'm sure that is the intention, but at present the wording states that any outboundary Travelcard can be used with the appropriate supplement. So you could use a Esher - London Zones 1-6 Travelcard, along with the extension and a supplement.

 

[barrykas]

I'm sure that is the intention, but at present the wording states that any outboundary Travelcard can be used with the appropriate supplement. So you could use a Esher - London Zones 1-6 Travelcard, along with the extension and a supplement.

Just to muddy the waters further, the Southeastern site says: "Please note an upgrade ticket on it's own is not valid, it must be accompanied by a Southeastern ticket that is not valid on high speed services."

And National Rail Enquiries have invented a new route: "Travelcards routed 'Plus High Speed' or 'Any Permitted + HS' are valid on Southeastern high speed services."

 

[maniacmartin]

"Any Permitted + HS" - it'd be funny if it weren't true.

It sounds like what they really want to do (but presumably can't) is amend the NRCoC to make "Any Permitted" not include High Speed. All this confusing hackery to the websites, tickets and the manual is a smoke and mirrors way to try to enforce that without Passenger Focus / DfT noticing imo.

HS1 could have been set up as a private railway without taxpayer assistance like Heathrow Express, but it wasn't, and Southeastern should live with that.

 

[craigwilson]

'Any Permitted + HS'

Do any tickets actually have that routing though? I've never seen it - it's always either "ANY PERMITTED" or "PLUS HIGH SPEED".

Regarding the BZ ticket issue, for what it's worth I'm with RJ on this one:

If inboundary Travelcards are very specifically banned without exception on HS1, how can you use one to validate a BZ extension for use on HS1?

It's one of those things I just wouldn't do, I highly suspect that arguing the toss with ATOC and the SE Pricing Manager wouldn't get you very far either.

The whole of HS1 is considered as outside the zones, so if you are using a BZ ticket, where do you enter the zones to make the ticket combo valid?

 

[barrykas]

Do any tickets actually have that routing though? I've never seen it - it's always either "ANY PERMITTED" or "PLUS HIGH SPEED".

As I mentioned in the original post, it's something that NRES appear to have made up. There's certainly no such route in the big "list o' routes" on FasTIS, though there is an "AP AGA PLUS HS1", which I'm guessing refers to Abellio Greater Anglia.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[paul1609]

Im told that routing on HS1 is about to change again. Something to do with the fact that for many country stations the cheapest way to get to London in the peak is to buy a super off peak to Birmingham!

 

[calc7]

Im told that routing on HS1 is about to change again. Something to do with the fact that for many country stations the cheapest way to get to London in the peak is to buy a super off peak to Birmingham!

Leamington Spa is cheaper.