Boundary Zone 2 to Heathrow

[penaltyfines]

If I buy a SDR BZ2 to HXX (HEATHROW TERM123) [12.60], and have a Zone 1+2 Monthly Season, can I travel on the Heathrow Express?

I would imagine no, as Heathrow Express is at a premium, but:

- PAD>HXX tickets at a similar price have the route restriction 'NOT HEATHROW EXP', but otherwise 'No Restriction Applies'.
- BZ2>HXX tickets have no such route restriction, just 'NOT LONDON', and again otherwise 'No Restriction Applies'.

What actual ticket restriction would stop me using the Heathrow Express? No relevant easement restrictions, the routing guide shouldn't apply as it's a direct train, and the train doesn't have to call as it's both a boundary ticket and 1 is a season ticket?

 

[Greenback]

Heathrow Express is not part of National Rail, so I would guess it is not subject to NCoC?

 

[penaltyfines]

Interestingly, their CoC doesn't say a railcard needs to be carried when making the journey!

 

[transportphoto]

If you buy them from a NR Ticket office then the tickets are subject to the NRCoC, as it says on the back of every ticket.

 

[MikeWh]

If I buy a SDR BZ2 to HXX (HEATHROW TERM123) [12.60], and have a Zone 1+2 Monthly Season, can I travel on the Heathrow Express?

I would imagine no, as Heathrow Express is at a premium, but:

- PAD>HXX tickets at a similar price have the route restriction 'NOT HEATHROW EXP', but otherwise 'No Restriction Applies'.
- BZ2>HXX tickets have no such route restriction, just 'NOT LONDON', and again otherwise 'No Restriction Applies'.

What actual ticket restriction would stop me using the Heathrow Express? No relevant easement restrictions, the routing guide shouldn't apply as it's a direct train, and the train doesn't have to call as it's both a boundary ticket and 1 is a season ticket?

Heathrow Express do not accept any travelcards therefore your Z12 season would not be valid for the first bit.

 

[paulravuslante]

Interestingly, their CoC doesn't say a railcard needs to be carried when making the journey!

But the Terms and Conditions for each of the railcards has a section along the lines of:

"You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you
must show a valid ticket and a valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price single fare for your journey as if no tickets were purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy discounted tickets."

Therefore, it's best to carry your railcard with you on any journey

 

[jon0844]

You can get an extension on a TC if you're using Heathrow Connect though.

I've even been able to do it on the train, having asked the TM before the train left (with hindsight, I could have asked at any time on the journey - alighting at the boundary if he or she refused, which seems unlikely and somewhat unfair).

Queuing up to buy a ticket at Paddington could easily mean missing one and waiting a further 30 minutes - but if you do get it, it's only 15 minutes longer and much, MUCH, cheaper.

 

[paulravuslante]

You can get an extension on a TC if you're using Heathrow Connect though.

I've even been able to do it on the train, having asked the TM before the train left (with hindsight, I could have asked at any time on the journey - alighting at the boundary if he or she refused, which seems unlikely and somewhat unfair).

Queuing up to buy a ticket at Paddington could easily mean missing one and waiting a further 30 minutes - but if you do get it, it's only 15 minutes longer and much, MUCH, cheaper.

Yes, this is true, but to clarify you're using a TC down to Hayes and then being sold a single from Hayes to the airport (£4.90 at the moment). It won't be the £3.50 or £1.30 TFL zonal extension. Also Oyster PAYG is a hassle as you need to touch out at Hayes or risk being charged the maximum single fare as well as the £4.90 single!

 

[penaltyfines]

Heathrow Express do not accept any travelcards therefore your Z12 season would not be valid for the first bit.

So if Heathrow Express can 'opt out' of accepting London Underground zonal fares/travelcards/seasons, then why couldn't Virgin Trains (http://www.virgintrains.org.uk/) opt out?

Or First Great Western on their High Speed route (PAD>RDG) opt out of accepting a BZ2>RDG fare as per one of my other posts?

 

[First class]

So if Heathrow Express can 'opt out' of accepting London Underground zonal fares/travelcards/seasons, then why couldn't Virgin Trains (http://www.virgintrains.org.uk/) opt out?

Or First Great Western on their High Speed route (PAD>RDG) opt out of accepting a BZ2>RDG fare as per one of my other posts?

Because Virgin are obliged to commit to the NRCoC as a franchised Train Operating Company and Heathrow Express are not. HEX could just decide that from next week they were putting fares up 300% or they could decide to stop trading altogether (without consultation or need for government permission etc) and there's not much you could do really...

Appendix C of the NRCoC makes it clear what companies are bound by the conditions. If it's not listed there, NRCoC don't apply. Heathrow Express is effectively like a 'heritage railway', where their own rules and regulations apply, (so long as they comply with the RGS).

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

APPENDIX C LIST OF TRAIN COMPANIES AT DECEMBER 2009
Arriva Trains Wales/Trenau Arriva Cymru Limited
c2c Rail Limited
East Coast Main Line Company Limited (trading as East Coast)
East Midlands Trains Limited
First Capital Connect Limited
First Greater Western Limited (trading as First Great Western)
First ScotRail Limited (trading as Scotrail)
First/Keolis TransPennine Limited (trading as TransPennine Express)
Grand Central Railway Company Limited (trading as Grand Central)
Hull Trains Company Limited
London & Birmingham Railway Limited (trading as London Midland)
London Overground Rail Operations Limited
London & South Eastern Railway Limited (trading as Southeastern)
London Eastern Railway Limited (trading as National Express East Anglia, and Stansted
Express)
Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Limited
Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern)
Northern Rail Limited
Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited (trading as South West Trains and Island Line)
The Chiltern Railway Company Limited
The Wrexham, Shropshire and Marylebone Railway Company Limited (trading as
Wrexham and Shropshire)
West Coast Trains Limited (trading as Virgin Trains)
XC Trains Limited (trading as CrossCountry)

 

[penaltyfines]

Because Virgin are obliged to commit to the NRCoC as a franchised Train Operating Company and Heathrow Express are not. HEX could just decide that from next week they were putting fares up 300% or they could decide to stop trading altogether (without consultation or need for government permission etc) and there's not much you could do really...

Appendix C of the NRCoC makes it clear what companies are bound by the conditions. If it's not listed there, NRCoC don't apply. Heathrow Express is effectively like a 'heritage railway', where their own rules and regulations apply, (so long as they comply with the RGS).

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

APPENDIX C LIST OF TRAIN COMPANIES AT DECEMBER 2009
Arriva Trains Wales/Trenau Arriva Cymru Limited
c2c Rail Limited
East Coast Main Line Company Limited (trading as East Coast)
East Midlands Trains Limited
First Capital Connect Limited
First Greater Western Limited (trading as First Great Western)
First ScotRail Limited (trading as Scotrail)
First/Keolis TransPennine Limited (trading as TransPennine Express)
Grand Central Railway Company Limited (trading as Grand Central)
Hull Trains Company Limited
London & Birmingham Railway Limited (trading as London Midland)
London Overground Rail Operations Limited
London & South Eastern Railway Limited (trading as Southeastern)
London Eastern Railway Limited (trading as National Express East Anglia, and Stansted
Express)
Merseyrail Electrics 2002 Limited
Southern Railway Limited (trading as Southern)
Northern Rail Limited
Stagecoach South Western Trains Limited (trading as South West Trains and Island Line)
The Chiltern Railway Company Limited
The Wrexham, Shropshire and Marylebone Railway Company Limited (trading as
Wrexham and Shropshire)
West Coast Trains Limited (trading as Virgin Trains)
XC Trains Limited (trading as CrossCountry)

OK so it's the NRCoC that says London Travelcards are valid on all National Rail services, enabling Boundary Zone to XXX tickets? No opt-out possible/not an opt-in arrangement?

 

[First class]

OK so it's the NRCoC that says London Travelcards are valid on all National Rail services, enabling Boundary Zone to XXX tickets? No opt-out possible/not an opt-in arrangement?

No, operators mentioned in the list posted above cannot 'pick and choose' what tickets they accept, they have to comply with the NRCoC.

HEX could, (if they wanted to), opt in (or out), but that would be entirely up to them, there's nothing that can force them to accept travel cards. Equally, if they did opt in, they could opt out whenever they fancied.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, this is true, but to clarify you're using a TC down to Hayes and then being sold a single from Hayes to the airport (£4.90 at the moment).

Yes, I have a Z1-6 ticket - so I simply buy a ticket from Hayes & Harlington - which I can get discounted by having the Gold Card. I have not tried (or needed to try) getting an extension from anywhere further back by having less zones.

Sorry if I didn't make it perfectly clear the first time.

On HEX, you can get the discount but only if you buy before boarding (well, perhaps there's an exception for Disabled railcards?) but Heathrow Connect is the smart way to travel.

 

[yorkie]

penaltyfines - First Class is correct.

I don't agree with ir but they are allowed to get away with not accepting Travelcards at all.

It's basically there to extracr loadsa cash from tourists. Sensible people use Connect and pay a lot less

 

[penaltyfines]

penaltyfines - First Class is correct.

I don't agree with ir but they are allowed to get away with not accepting Travelcards at all.

It's basically there to extracr loadsa cash from tourists. Sensible people use Connect and pay a lot less

Yep get that now.

I know I'm being pedantic, but it looks like only Heathrow Express-issued tickets are valid on their services. How can another Op issue tickets valid for an Op (Heathrow Express) which isn't a part of National Rail?

The answer must be an agreement to do so. Therefore, out of interest, which bit of Heathrow Express' conditions of carriage says that eg a through ticket from Milton Keynes Central to Heathrow, with the Heathrow Express supplement/extra, says it is valid on the Heathrow Express?

My point being if travelcards aren't valid because HEX isn't part of National Rail, then regular 'orange' tickets shouldn't be valid either?? But as they are, it must say so somewhere. And does is that bit worded ambiguously so that a travelcard could be valid too?

 

[First class]

Yep get that now.

I know I'm being pedantic, but it looks like only Heathrow Express-issued tickets are valid on their services. How can another Op issue tickets valid for an Op (Heathrow Express) which isn't a part of National Rail?

The answer must be an agreement to do so. Therefore, out of interest, which bit of Heathrow Express' conditions of carriage says that eg a through ticket from Milton Keynes Central to Heathrow, with the Heathrow Express supplement/extra, says it is valid on the Heathrow Express?

My point being if travelcards aren't valid because HEX isn't part of National Rail, then regular 'orange' tickets shouldn't be valid either?? But as they are, it must say so somewhere. And does is that bit worded ambiguously so that a travelcard could be valid too?

I can buy through tickets to certain heritage railways, the zoo, theme parks and garden centres and even helicopter flights to Scilly on normal orange stock.

The part by "National Rail" is covered by the NRCoC. If a ticket entitles you to any goods or services from another person (including the right to
travel in another person’s transport services), it is also evidence of a contract between you and that person, therefore the non National Rail element is on their terms and conditions, NOT the NRCoC, i.e. they CAN leave you stranded, they CAN refuse refunds, they CAN do anything they want so long as it complies with their own conditions.

 

[penaltyfines]

OK, so what conditions/contract covers 'orange' tickets on HEX?

I.e. what tickets do/don't they accept?

 

[First class]

These conditions cover travel on HEX services at all times, irrespective of whether your ticket is orange, blue, purple, spotted etc... http://www.heathrowexpress.com/conditions-of-carriage

 

[penaltyfines]

These conditions cover travel on HEX services at all times, irrespective of whether your ticket is orange, blue, purple, spotted etc... http://www.heathrowexpress.com/conditions-of-carriage

"Tickets are only valid on Heathrow Express trains if they say so explicitly." - any NR issued tickets don't say that explicitly :P

"Please note that Heathrow Connect tickets are not valid for travel on Heathrow Express. " - being pedantic but a BZ2-HXX ticket doesn't say Heathrow Connect on it any more than a valid PAD-HXX ticket.

I think it's one of those things that ambiguous but not worth arguing about :/

 

[paulravuslante]

Yes, I have a Z1-6 ticket - so I simply buy a ticket from Hayes & Harlington - which I can get discounted by having the Gold Card. I have not tried (or needed to try) getting an extension from anywhere further back by having less zones.

Sorry if I didn't make it perfectly clear the first time.

On HEX, you can get the discount but only if you buy before boarding (well, perhaps there's an exception for Disabled railcards?) but Heathrow Connect is the smart way to travel.

Must have been a sympathetic Customer Service Assistant to give you the discount on the train. Officially discounts are not permitted on the train (unless no ticket office facilities are available).

Yes, there is a Disabled railcard (and wheelchair bound customers) exception for discounts on board HEx trains.

The adverts referring to 'Smart Londoners' on Connect's website must be working as you've referred to Connect as the smart way to travel
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's basically there to extracr loadsa cash from tourists. Sensible people use Connect and pay a lot less

Most tourists when you mention the price, say no to Hex. Therefore Hex is mainly there for business types who want a turn up and go service without having to justify forking out for a £80+ taxi fare.

 

[jon0844]

I've simply asked the TM if I could get a ticket onboard before it left (i.e. usually with a minute or two to space, which isn't enough to buy a ticket at Paddington - given I am effectively asking for an extension so none of the TVMs will work for me), and have been told that it is okay. And, if I am getting the ticket before leaving Z6 and doing the final stretch to the airport then I don't see a problem as I've got a valid ticket at that point.

If there was a problem, I'd simply alight and get my ticket at Hayes & Harlington and wait for the next one and be no worse off than having missed the train at Paddington.

And, yes, I do remember the adverts which is why I said it.

 

[penaltyfines]

Off-topic but amusing.

I was returning from Edinburgh and went to buy a HXX to PAD on HEX (I was travelling business, not my monies! )... ticket office shut at Heathrow.

On-board, conductor said he couldn't sell me a ticket (with my YNG railcard) as it could only be bought from the ticket office, and even after me showing him a picture on my phone of the office being shut, still tried to charge me the full fare while being very agressive.

lovely.

 

[transportphoto]

Sorry, this may seem an ovbious answer, but doesn't Heathrow have TVMs?

 

[paulravuslante]

Penaltyfares: I assume it was Heathrow Central you travelled from (using HXX code)? From which terminal did you arrive at and around what time were you coming in to the station? I'm interested as it sounds like something that should be highlighted to HEx directly and suggest you contact them directly concerning this. One of the ticket offices at the airport does close rather early, but the others are normally open until 23:30.

transportphoto: HEx (A)TVMs do not allow railcard discounts unfortunately.