bought wrong ticket

[pleasehelp101]

I was travelling from Durham to Newcastle, and bought a child for the LNER service. I got on the Cross Country one, and the ticket operator scanned my tickets and took me aside. I lied about my age, and when she caught me and said I wasn’t 15, I said I was 17, when I am in fact 20. Does anyone have any experience regarding this? I offered to buy a new ticket as I said I picked the wrong one. Please help as I am panicking

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@pleasehelp101. Welcome to the forum. Don't panic. It should be possible to sort things out.

An initial question... Were you provided with any paperwork from the Cross Country staff member? If so, could you post a copy on here, but with your name and address and case reference number (if any) all suitably obscured.

Assuming inspection of your ticket purchasing history doesn't show any other instances of you having bought discounted tickets to which you weren't entitled (if you've bought your tickets online, it's easy for them to check), then you should be able to pay some £££ to XC to resolve the matter and not be taken to Court.

It'll probably be the undiscounted unpaid full fare due (= £5.60) plus maybe a three figure sum towards their admin and investigation costs.

Presume also that you provided the XC staff member with your correct name and address (if not your correct age). And you're not planning on moving any time soon.

And why not buy a 16-25 railcard, which entitles you to legitimately discounted travel on future journeys, assuming always, that if you do buy a (cheap) train company specific ticket, you do then travel on the appropriate company's train service?!

 

[Haywain]

I was travelling from Durham to Newcastle, and bought a child for the LNER service. I got on the Cross Country one, and the ticket operator scanned my tickets and took me aside. I lied about my age, and when she caught me and said I wasn’t 15, I said I was 17, when I am in fact 20. Does anyone have any experience regarding this? I offered to buy a new ticket as I said I picked the wrong one. Please help as I am panicking

You will have to wait for a letter to come from CrossCountry, or from their agents Transport Investigations Limited (TIL). As you lied about your age, the letter may be addressed to your parent or guardian rather than to you. When a letter is received it would be a good idea to come clean about your age if you wish to have a chance of avoiding being taken to court. Although you have comitted a criminal offence, try not to worry too much as this is a minor offence and will not result in a prison sentence. There is even a good chance that you will be able to avoid prosecution if you follow the advice you will receive here. When you receive a letter, post a copy here with your personal details obscured.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Was it an e ticket bought online or a paper ticket from the station, and if it was bought online would a check of your online account show other occasions of purchasing child tickets?

 

[pleasehelp101]

hi,
thank you for all your responses. i have a railcard but as a student, i was just trying to save a bit of extra money. i panic easily that’s why i lied about my age both times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2023 ==

Was it an e ticket bought online or a paper ticket from the station, and if it was bought online would a check of your online account show other occasions of purchasing child tickets?

yes it would unfortunately, i’ve heard people who work at durham station say that they often count durham and newcastle as the same station, as they are so close together, so i didn’t think it would be a big deal. it was the first time that they’ve checked as well.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@pleasehelp101. Good chance you'll also now get asked to pay the full, undiscounted, Anytime Day Single fares, for each and every occasion on which you've bought and used inappropriately discounted tickets. This could quickly add up and, overall, prove somewhat expensive.

 

[pleasehelp101]

@pleasehelp101. Good chance you'll also now get asked to pay the full, undiscounted, Anytime Day Single fares, for each and every occasion on which you've bought and used inappropriately discounted tickets. This could add up and, overall, prove somewhat expensive.

what do you think the likelihood of prosecution would be, especially given i lied and panicked about my age? and the other child tickets are largely not with cross country, which the dispute is with

 

[Haywain]

I was travelling from Durham to Newcastle, and bought a child for the LNER service. I got on the Cross Country one, and the ticket operator scanned my tickets and took me aside.

Can you clarify whether you were "taken aside" on the CrossCountry train or at one of the stations?

 

[John R]

They won’t care who the other tickets were with, and will seek to recover the appropriate fare for all of the instances, if they choose to look back further than the instance you were picked up.

Unless the fare evasion is on an industrial scale then you are likely to get a settlement if you cooperate, but will likely be asked to pay an administrative fee of around £150 in addition to the full vale of unpaid fares.

 

[pleasehelp101]

Can you clarify whether you were "taken aside" on the CrossCountry train or at one of the stations?

i was taken aside on the train, then when we arrived at newcastle the lady finished taking my details on the platform

 

[WesternLancer]

hi,
thank you for all your responses. i have a railcard but as a student, i was just trying to save a bit of extra money. i panic easily that’s why i lied about my age both times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2023 ==


yes it would unfortunately, i’ve heard people who work at durham station say that they often count durham and newcastle as the same station, as they are so close together, so i didn’t think it would be a big deal. it was the first time that they’ve checked as well.

Just to say you will get good help and advice on here on what to do as things progress - but it's probably helpful to be clear about a few things that you need to give a bit of thought to:

i’ve heard people who work at durham station say that they often count durham and newcastle as the same station, as they are so close together,

- this is implausible - they are different places, you know there is a fare to travel between them (as you bought a child ticket to cover it).

- they won't care if the fare you have evaded is relatively low, after all, how do they know that having got away with that you would not try to evade more expensive fares. Also Cross Country Train often use an enforcement company called TIL to handle their fare evasion cases, and TIL do take a tough line as you will see on other threads on the forum.

it was the first time that they’ve checked as well.

- Well, you only have to get caught once.

and the other child tickets are largely not with cross country, which the dispute is with

- so you have done this on other occasions by the sound of it (as mentioned they will be able to check any online ticket buying history and will see records of other instances) - also Cross Country will effectively act on behalf of other train companies in regards to this, as they were the ones who caught you.

as a student, i was just trying to save a bit of extra money

- You may be able to get confidential help and advice form your Student Union or University welfare service - it would be worth finding out if that is possible.


Having said all of the above, if you engage with the railway over what has happened you probably have a good chance of being offered an 'out of court settlement' which is probably what you need to seek to achieve. As mentioned above you need to wait until you hear from them - this means that for some time ahead you need to be sure to be able to get hard copy post at the address you gave them (so if you are a student and it gets sent to your family address, make sure it is looked out for, if it is going to a student house or hall of residence, make sure post is checked. It's really important to respond to the post as they will not give you long to reply, and if no response is received by them your case will almost certainly be placed 'on an escalator' for court action - and you need to avoid that.

If you engage with the process, focus on getting the help you need to sort this out, ask for advice as you need it etc hopefully a good chance of you getting this sorted out without it going to court, that should be your main objective in my view.

 

[pleasehelp101]

Just to say you will get good help and advice on here on what to do as things progress - but it's probably helpful to be clear about a few things that you need to give a bit of thought to:


- this is implausible - they are different places, you know there is a fare to travel between them (as you bought a child ticket to cover it).

- they won't care if the fare you have evaded is relatively low, after all, how do they know that having got away with that you would not try to evade more expensive fares. Also Cross Country Train often use an enforcement company called TIL to handle their fare evasion cases, and TIL do take a tough line as you will see on other threads on the forum.


- Well, you only have to get caught once.



- so you have done this on other occasions by the sound of it (as mentioned they will be able to check any online ticket buying history and will see records of other instances) - also Cross Country will effectively act on behalf of other train companies in regards to this, as they were the ones who caught you.


- You may be able to get confidential help and advice form your Student Union or University welfare service - it would be worth finding out if that is possible.


Having said all of the above, if you engage with the railway over what has happened you probably have a good chance of being offered an 'out of court settlement' which is probably what you need to seek to achieve. As mentioned above you need to wait until you hear from them - this means that for some time ahead you need to be sure to be able to get hard copy post at the address you gave them (so if you are a student and it gets sent to your family address, make sure it is looked out for, if it is going to a student house or hall of residence, make sure post is checked. It's really important to respond to the post as they will not give you long to reply, and if no response is received by them your case will almost certainly be placed 'on an escalator' for court action - and you need to avoid that.

If you engage with the process, focus on getting the help you need to sort this out, ask for advice as you need it etc hopefully a good chance of you getting this sorted out without it going to court, that should be your main objective in my view.

thank you for this, i was just being really stupid and trying to save a bit of money. could i please ask - what do you mean by ‘on an escalator’? and in general, are cross country more likely to prosecute or are they more open to an ‘out of court settlement’ - thanks!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

what do you mean by ‘on an escalator’?

They're trying to say that if you don't engage with the process, then the matter will definitely go to court. To say the same thing a different way, your only chance of avoiding prosecution is to respond when the railway write to you. And then your response will have to be convincing in showing that you have learnt your lesson, and you won't be a risk to the railway's revenue in future.

(edited for spelling: right >write)

 

[WesternLancer]

thank you for this, i was just being really stupid and trying to save a bit of money. could i please ask - what do you mean by ‘on an escalator’? and in general, are cross country more likely to prosecute or are they more open to an ‘out of court settlement’ - thanks!

Hi - apols - but just to explain, I mean that it would 'automatically' end up in court - the railway will put 100s of these cases through to court prosecution probably every week - but those will be people who do not engage with the letters they send (either because they bury head in sand, give a false address - then eventually in many cases court bailiffs find the person anyway... - or do not reply to the letter you will, or should be sent) - so the escalator means that no reply to the letter they send you just means it gets 'escalated' and put on the 'to be prosecuted pile' and then next thing you would hear would be a court summons. This is why it is vital to get that letter and respond to it quickly

If you look at other threads you will see the sort of letters that will be sent - it might look like a threat of prosecution at first glance but if you read it carefully it will give you an opportunity to give your version of events etc. If you look at the general advice often given by @Hadders in these threads that will give you a clear idea of what to expect and how you should go about responding.

You want to avoid it going to court as you would almost certainly be found guilty - in practical terms that means a court fine and associated costs etc (which would almost certainly be more costly than an out of court settlement) as well as a criminal record against your name. I would strongly advise doing all you can to avoid this.

If it is TIL acting for Cross Country I am afraid to say that from experience on here they are more likely to threaten court action, and more likely to take a tough stance, checking your previous ticket buying records etc*, and do so more than once, but it is possible to settle if you read cases on here as you will see (TIL also work on behalf of Chiltern Trains and there are always lots of cases on here about fare evasion on Chiltern), but it may take you 2 or 3 requests to achieve that.

As things progress it would probably be a good idea for you to get advice and help here if you feel it will be helpful, but if you have access to eg student union advice, as I said, it would be worth asking for their assistance too.

But the important things now are:
- not to panic or let this distract you from your studies etc
- make sure you receive and respond to their letter (taking advice on how best to do that / what to say)
- ensure you make absolutely no other ticket errors going forwards (intentional or unintentional - if in doubt about a train ticket - ask at the ticket office)
- try to put this to the back of your mind whilst you wait to hear from them, which could take a few weeks so be mindful of your address at the end of term if you have not heard from them by then



* if you have bought child tickets before, and done so on line, then it would probably be wise for you to start looking at your ticket purchase records and making a private list of how often you have done this, as they will be checking records from all ticket retailers for evidence of this. Given you say that you actually have a Railcard giving 34% off, but were buying child tickets to get 50% off instead, on a journey like Durham to Newcastle you have presumably only saved £1 or £2 each time, but it will cost a lot more to now sort this out.

 

[pleasehelp101]

Hi - apols - but just to explain, I mean that it would 'automatically' end up in court - the railway will put 100s of these cases through to court prosecution probably every week - but those will be people who do not engage with the letters they send (either because they bury head in sand, give a false address - then eventually in many cases court bailiffs find the person anyway... - or do not reply to the letter you will, or should be sent) - so the escalator means that no reply to the letter they send you just means it gets 'escalated' and put on the 'to be prosecuted pile' and then next thing you would hear would be a court summons. This is why it is vital to get that letter and respond to it quickly

If you look at other threads you will see the sort of letters that will be sent - it might look like a threat of prosecution at first glance but if you read it carefully it will give you an opportunity to give your version of events etc. If you look at the general advice often given by @Hadders in these threads that will give you a clear idea of what to expect and how you should go about responding.

You want to avoid it going to court as you would almost certainly be found guilty - in practical terms that means a court fine and associated costs etc (which would almost certainly be more costly than an out of court settlement) as well as a criminal record against your name. I would strongly advise doing all you can to avoid this.

If it is TIL acting for Cross Country I am afraid to say that from experience on here they are more likely to threaten court action, and more likely to take a tough stance, checking your previous ticket buying records etc*, and do so more than once, but it is possible to settle if you read cases on here as you will see (TIL also work on behalf of Chiltern Trains and there are always lots of cases on here about fare evasion on Chiltern), but it may take you 2 or 3 requests to achieve that.

As things progress it would probably be a good idea for you to get advice and help here if you feel it will be helpful, but if you have access to eg student union advice, as I said, it would be worth asking for their assistance too.

But the important things now are:
- not to panic or let this distract you from your studies etc
- make sure you receive and respond to their letter (taking advice on how best to do that / what to say)
- ensure you make absolutely no other ticket errors going forwards (intentional or unintentional - if in doubt about a train ticket - ask at the ticket office)
- try to put this to the back of your mind whilst you wait to hear from them, which could take a few weeks so be mindful of your address at the end of term if you have not heard from them by then



* if you have bought child tickets before, and done so on line, then it would probably be wise for you to start looking at your ticket purchase records and making a private list of how often you have done this, as they will be checking records from all ticket retailers for evidence of this. Given you say that you actually have a Railcard giving 34% off, but were buying child tickets to get 50% off instead, on a journey like Durham to Newcastle you have presumably only saved £1 or £2 each time, but it will cost a lot more to now sort this out.

thank you so much for all your help - do most ‘out of court settlements’ work, or do the TIL typically prefer to take it to court? and by 2/3 requests, do you essentially mean 2/3 letters persuading them to settle out of court every time they reply? sorry for the barrage of questions

 

[WesternLancer]

thank you so much for all your help - do most ‘out of court settlements’ work, or do the TIL typically prefer to take it to court? and by 2/3 requests, do you essentially mean 2/3 letters persuading them to settle out of court every time they reply? sorry for the barrage of questions

Yes, the latter - 2 to 3 letters before they agree to settle out of court (other train companies seem to far more often agree 1st letter by contrast).

TIL certainly seem to repeatedly threaten court - if you look at some cases where people upload the letters they get after their 1st reply TIL then write back saying eg 'we still don't see why we should not take you to court', and passengers then have to re-state their apology etc (sorry I can't find a good example on the forum but they are there). But also it seems that Cross Country do some of this in house, so it may be that they write to you, not TIL. You will have to wait and see on that one.

I do think that you will have a good chance of keeping this out of court however.

 

[spag23]

and by 2/3 requests, do you essentially mean 2/3 letters persuading them to settle out of court every time they reply? sorry for the barrage of questions

Just to be clear. @WesternLancer is not saying the OP should send 2 or 3 letters to each of TIL's responses. That would not be constructive! No, just one (re-phrased) reply to each TIL letter.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just to be clear. @WesternLancer is not saying the OP should send 2 or 3 letters to each of TIL's responses. That would not be constructive! No, just one (re-phrased) reply to each TIL letter.

Thanks - yes, this is what I mean.

 

[pleasehelp101]

Hi - apols - but just to explain, I mean that it would 'automatically' end up in court - the railway will put 100s of these cases through to court prosecution probably every week - but those will be people who do not engage with the letters they send (either because they bury head in sand, give a false address - then eventually in many cases court bailiffs find the person anyway... - or do not reply to the letter you will, or should be sent) - so the escalator means that no reply to the letter they send you just means it gets 'escalated' and put on the 'to be prosecuted pile' and then next thing you would hear would be a court summons. This is why it is vital to get that letter and respond to it quickly

If you look at other threads you will see the sort of letters that will be sent - it might look like a threat of prosecution at first glance but if you read it carefully it will give you an opportunity to give your version of events etc. If you look at the general advice often given by @Hadders in these threads that will give you a clear idea of what to expect and how you should go about responding.

You want to avoid it going to court as you would almost certainly be found guilty - in practical terms that means a court fine and associated costs etc (which would almost certainly be more costly than an out of court settlement) as well as a criminal record against your name. I would strongly advise doing all you can to avoid this.

If it is TIL acting for Cross Country I am afraid to say that from experience on here they are more likely to threaten court action, and more likely to take a tough stance, checking your previous ticket buying records etc*, and do so more than once, but it is possible to settle if you read cases on here as you will see (TIL also work on behalf of Chiltern Trains and there are always lots of cases on here about fare evasion on Chiltern), but it may take you 2 or 3 requests to achieve that.

As things progress it would probably be a good idea for you to get advice and help here if you feel it will be helpful, but if you have access to eg student union advice, as I said, it would be worth asking for their assistance too.

But the important things now are:
- not to panic or let this distract you from your studies etc
- make sure you receive and respond to their letter (taking advice on how best to do that / what to say)
- ensure you make absolutely no other ticket errors going forwards (intentional or unintentional - if in doubt about a train ticket - ask at the ticket office)
- try to put this to the back of your mind whilst you wait to hear from them, which could take a few weeks so be mindful of your address at the end of term if you have not heard from them by then



* if you have bought child tickets before, and done so on line, then it would probably be wise for you to start looking at your ticket purchase records and making a private list of how often you have done this, as they will be checking records from all ticket retailers for evidence of this. Given you say that you actually have a Railcard giving 34% off, but were buying child tickets to get 50% off instead, on a journey like Durham to Newcastle you have presumably only saved £1 or £2 each time, but it will cost a lot more to now sort this out.

i just checked, it’s happened about 10 times, but for a few of the journies, i was purchasing tickets for someone else - will they take this into account

 

[30907]

i just checked, it’s happened about 10 times, but for a few of the journies, i was purchasing tickets for someone else - will they take this into account

Quite possibly - unless said person was entitled to half fare of course, or you can prove that they, not you, used the ticket, in which case they committed an offence themselves.

 

[WesternLancer]

i just checked, it’s happened about 10 times, but for a few of the journies, i was purchasing tickets for someone else - will they take this into account

If they accused you of other cases then you could use that as a defence - but you have to think through the ultimate consequences of that in a worst case scenario, even if it's rather theoretical I think - ie that said person would turn up in court if you were prosecuted to state, under oath, that you bought their ticket for them and that they travelled on it, not you.

But it probably would not get that far if it went to court, as they would probably just prosecute you for the occasion they caught you, and you admitted that you were not aged under 16 - which is why they would secure a guilty verdict for that occasion.

But like I say - that's getting a bit theoretical.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2023 ==

i just checked, it’s happened about 10 times, but for a few of the journies, i was purchasing tickets for someone else - will they take this into account

Hi - just to add - you will find a useful post from @Hadders in this other thread details the sort of response you will need to make when you hear from the railway.

Post #6 here

Purchased incorrect ticket

I boarded a train from Burton-on-Trent to Birmingham and then another to Wolverhampton with a railway discount that I am I not eligible for as I do not have a railcard. For some reason it was already applied to my account so I just went ahead and purchased thinking that I was eligible when I...

www.railforums.co.uk

worth you reading it in full, and which includes:

As for what will happen next the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf will send you a letter. The letter will typically takes a few weeks to arrive and will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

 

[pleasehelp101]

Hi! Just received this letter - I have paid the outstanding £5.60. Does this mean that everything is sorted now? Thanks for your advice and guidance

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi! Just received this letter - I have paid the outstanding £5.60. Does this mean that everything is sorted now? Thanks for your advice and guidance

Yes and you’re very lucky. They think you’re a child from the correspondence when you’re not.

 

[Hadders]

This is an exceptionally good result. Pay the money asap!

 

[island]

Hi! Just received this letter - I have paid the outstanding £5.60. Does this mean that everything is sorted now? Thanks for your advice and guidance

Yes, it is. Naturally it is absolutely essential you pay the correct fare going forward as your details are now on file and you are most unlikely to be dealt with as leniently in the future.