Bought a child ticket

[DirtyOldRiver]

Hi, I have received a letter about an alleged contravention of railway regulations and I am looking for help on what to say and advice on what will happen.

I am worried as to why they have sent me this letter and not simply fined me £20 at the station, and I am worried that they will take me to court and I will get a criminal record.

I was caught using a child ticket because I am a few years above the age of a child, but I am very small and look young. I said that’s the reason I bought a child ticket to the inspector, and I think that he may have put that down in his report. It says an evidential report has been made, but I can’t see what is said in the report.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@DirtyOldRiver. Welcome to the forum.

Is this something that you have done before, perhaps on numerous occasions, but now's the first time you've been caught? The train company investigation team will endeavour to look at your previous ticket purchasing history, assuming they were made through companies such as the Trainline or other online ticket sellers.

Are you able to upload/scan a copy of the letter you have received, with your personal details suitably obscured?

Have to say that what you've told us seems not to be an "honest mistake", which might have been sorted out by you paying a penalty fare of £20. Looks more like a deliberate attempt to avoid paying the correct amount(s).

Forum expert @Hadders is usually able to provide some general advice as regards situations such as the one that you now find yourself in.

It's not guaranteed, but you may be able to negotiate a so-called "out of court" settlement, and avoid being taken to court, but this may prove relatively expensive in comparison with the fares that should have been paid at the time.

 

[L401CJF]

Presumably as its a deliberate attempt to avoid paying the correct fare they've decided a penalty fare isn't appropriate and to take it further.

Others will be along shortly with advice!

 

[DirtyOldRiver]

@DirtyOldRiver. Welcome to the forum.

Is this something that you have done before, perhaps on numerous occasions, but now's the first time you've been caught? The train company investigation team will endeavour to look at your previous ticket purchasing history, assuming they were made through companies such as the Trainline or other online ticket sellers.

Are you able to upload/scan a copy of the letter you have received, with your personal details suitably obscured?

Have to say that what you've told us seems not to be an "honest mistake", which might have been sorted out by you paying a penalty fare of £20. Looks more like a deliberate attempt to avoid paying the correct amount(s).

Forum expert @Hadders is usually able to provide some general advice as regards situations such as the one that you now find yourself in.

It's not guaranteed, but you may be able to negotiate a so-called "out of court" settlement, and avoid being taken to court, but this may prove relatively expensive in comparison with the fares that should have been paid at the time.

Hi, I rarely use the trains. I may have bought a few tickets but they were on Childs ticket, no more than 2 or 3 in past months.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum.

We really need to know more information to offer better advice. What journey were you making? What station were you details taken at? Do you know which train company this was?

As I'm sure you're aware travelling with a child ticket when you aren't a child is a criminal offence. There is no entitlement to a Penalty Fare - essentially these should only be issued for 'honest mistakes' and not where someone has deliberately avoided paying the correct fare.

What I expect will happen next is that you will receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive and can be sooner but shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £100 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread I'm sure forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[DirtyOldRiver]

Welcome to the forum.

We really need to know more information to offer better advice. What journey were you making? What station were you details taken at? Do you know which train company this was?

As I'm sure you're aware travelling with a child ticket when you aren't a child is a criminal offence. There is no entitlement to a Penalty Fare - essentially these should only be issued for 'honest mistakes' and not where someone has deliberately avoided paying the correct fare.

What I expect will happen next is that you will receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive and can be sooner but shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £100 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread I'm sure forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Hi, thanks for the reply. I have received a letter from them.

It is Northern Rail.

 

[AlterEgo]

They’ll basically audit your online ticket purchasing accounts with various retailers (if you do indeed buy online), and figure out the total amount you’ve evaded, plus an administration fee of about £100 on top of this.

They’ve got you slap bang to rights and you unwisely admitted the offence of attempting to evade the fare straight up in the interview under caution. You’ll need to pay the settlement when it comes in order to avoid going to court and getting a criminal record.

 

[DirtyOldRiver]

They’ll basically audit your online ticket purchasing accounts with various retailers (if you do indeed buy online), and figure out the total amount you’ve evaded, plus an administration fee of about £100 on top of this.

They’ve got you slap bang to rights and you unwisely admitted the offence of attempting to evade the fare straight up in the interview under caution. You’ll need to pay the settlement when it comes in order to avoid going to court and getting a criminal record.

Hi, I didn’t think it was that deep, I was just expecting to pay a fine there and then.

As I said there will only be a few times where I’ve purchased child ticket.

How confident are you they will offer out of court? Do Northern often do this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2022 ==

They’ll basically audit your online ticket purchasing accounts with various retailers (if you do indeed buy online), and figure out the total amount you’ve evaded, plus an administration fee of about £100 on top of this.

They’ve got you slap bang to rights and you unwisely admitted the offence of attempting to evade the fare straight up in the interview under caution. You’ll need to pay the settlement when it comes in order to avoid going to court and getting a criminal record.

So he will have said the reason I gave as to why I bought a child ticket? He told me when I get the letter, that if I told them that reason, ‘it won’t work’.

Why would he say that if they would already know the reason.

 

[furlong]

Just follow what Hadders has written above - cover those 4 bullet points. Don't give that reason or make any more excuses. Apologise and offer to settle in the way he describes and Northern will probably just respond by telling you how much you need to pay to make the problem go away.

 

[Hadders]

Hi, I didn’t think it was that deep, I was just expecting to pay a fine there and then. I forget how much these people love their jobs.

As I said there will only be a few times where I’ve purchased child ticket.

How confident are you they will offer out of court? Do Northern often do this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2022 ==


So he will have said the reason I gave as to why I bought a child ticket? He told me when I get the letter, that if I told them that reason, ‘it won’t work’.

Why would he say that if they would already know the reason.

Travelling without paying the correct fare is a serious offence. Don't blame the staff who are just doing their job - this is all your fault.

If you follow the advice I gace upthread then there's a good chance of being offered an out of court settlement, Northern are one of the train companies that tend to avoid court in the first instance. Don't get shirty, or try to be clever with them as they hold all the cards here and if they do decide to go to court they will win.

 

[skyhigh]

I forget how much these people love their jobs.

On the other hand, the railway industry is heavily supported by the Government, so it could be argued by fare evading you're stealing from the taxpayer and anyone who is caught deliberately avoiding fares should be fully investigated.

You're fully in the wrong here.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Hi, I didn’t think it was that deep, I was just expecting to pay a fine there and then. I forget how much these people love their jobs.

Woah! You’ve got to remember what you’ve done is theft, it’s no difference to stealing a bottle of wine from a shop and being surprised when the security guard runs after you!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Would imagine that if an "out of court settlement" is offered, it will require payment of the full, undiscounted adult Anytime Day Single fare between Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly for each and every occasion on which it is considered that the correct fare was avoided (= £25.40 per journey?) plus an additional sum of maybe three figures towards the train company's investigation costs. Could easily be a couple of hundred pounds, or more.

An expensive lesson, yes, but arguably a better prospect/outcome than being taken to court.

Moving forward, might it be in the OP's best interests to consider obtaining a valid railcard (16-25, if eligible)?

 

[DirtyOldRiver]

Would imagine that if an "out of court settlement" is offered, it will require payment of the full, undiscounted adult Anytime Day Single fare between Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly for each and every occasion on which it is considered that the correct fare was avoided (= £25.40 per journey?) plus an additional sum of maybe three figures towards the train company's investigation costs. Could easily be a couple of hundred pounds, or more.

An expensive lesson, yes, but arguably a better prospect/outcome than being taken to court.

Moving forward, might it be in the OP's best interests to consider obtaining a valid railcard (16-25, if eligible)?

I already have a railcard. I didn’t have it with me it was at home.

 

[WesternLancer]

I am worried as to why they have sent me this letter and not simply fined me £20 at the station, and I am worried that they will take me to court and I will get a criminal record.

If you don't respond and seek to ask for an out of court settlement they will indeed take you to court and you will have a criminal record. They are not obliged to offer you one but I suspect you will have a good chance. I would expect you to have to pay at least £100 ish possibly plus the costs of fares avoided at the full Adult Anytime price (not off peak fares for example)

I would urgently buy a railcard assuming you are still young enough to be entitled to one of the various railcards. This will show you have taken steps to legally reduce your train fare costs and learned your lesson

Also, familiarize yourself with the 'Forgotten Railcard policy' see your T&Cs on your railcard - it would have solved this problem for you.

I was caught using a child ticket because I am a few years above the age of a child, but I am very small and look young. I said that’s the reason I bought a child ticket to the inspector, and I think that he may have put that down in his report.

As more general advice it is your age that makes you responsible for the relevant legal sanctions when you break the law. Not your height or looks. At least I'd hope that was the case.

 

[DirtyOldRiver]

If you don't respond and seek to ask for an out of court settlement they will indeed take you to court and you will have a criminal record. They are not obliged to offer you one but I suspect you will have a good chance. I would expect you to have to pay at least £100 ish possibly plus the costs of fares avoided at the full Adult Anytime price (not off peak fares for example)

I would urgently buy a railcard assuming you are still young enough to be entitled to one of the various railcards. This will show you have taken steps to legally reduce your train fare costs and learned your lesson

Also, familiarize yourself with the 'Forgotten Railcard policy' see your T&Cs on your railcard - it would have solved this problem for you.


As more general advice it is your age that makes you responsible for the relevant legal sanctions when you break the law. Not your height or looks. At least I'd hope that was the case.

Thanks. Do I still mention rail card in my letter. How would I go about mentioning that if so?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thanks. Do I still mention rail card in my letter. How would I go about mentioning that if so?

Not really. It probably won't make the prosecution go away. The discount that you incorrectly claimed on the "child tickets" would almost certainly have been for a larger discount amount anyway. And if you did have a valid railcard, why didn't you have it with you and make use of it when travelling? On more than one occasion?!

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi, I didn’t think it was that deep, I was just expecting to pay a fine there and then.

As I said there will only be a few times where I’ve purchased child ticket.

How confident are you they will offer out of court? Do Northern often do this.

Northern do usually offer to settle, but it’ll possibly be for each and every time they detect you having purchased a child ticket, plus their administration fee.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2022 ==


So he will have said the reason I gave as to why I bought a child ticket?

Yeah, you admitted to evading the fare, straight up. That’s what you said to him - you get a child ticket because you look young and small, and by extension that means you think you won’t be questioned about your age.

He told me when I get the letter, that if I told them that reason, ‘it won’t work’.

Why would he say that if they would already know the reason.

It’s difficult to give an answer to this because it’s not clear in what context “it won’t work” was said. But, fairly obviously, “I get child tickets because even though I’m old enough I think that because I look young” is not a defence, but rather an admission of a criminal offence.

Thanks. Do I still mention rail card in my letter. How would I go about mentioning that if so?

If you mention it it’s simply a further admission of your age!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks. Do I still mention rail card in my letter. How would I go about mentioning that if so?

Sorry, that's not what I meant so I assume you did not bother to search for that policy and work it out for yourself - but it means that you could have bought a ticket with a railcard discount even if you had left your Railcard at home and used the terms of the policy to be let off the inability to show it when asked.

But instead you bought a ticket that you were not entitled to and for which there is no excuse for doing so as it is classed as deliberate fare evasion (which is why you did not get a Penalty Fare offered etc).

There is no point in mentioning your Railcard in any letter now - the fact that you had one, as mentioned above, means you know you are not entitled to child rate fares.

 

[DirtyOldRiver]

Thanks for the help guys. I’ll write my email later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2022 ==

Hi, what is everyone’s thoughts on getting a solicitor to write a letter. They say they can argue on the grounds that it is not in the public interest to prosecute.
How much would it cost to instruct a solicitor?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the help guys. I’ll write my email later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2022 ==

Hi, what is everyone’s thoughts on getting a solicitor to write a letter. They say they can argue on the grounds that it is not in the public interest to prosecute.
How much would it cost to instruct a solicitor?

Hard to know but you can ask them for a quote - ring a few in fact and ask them. Other cases on here have typically cited solicitors fees of about £500. This form has been mentioned by people on the forum (I have no connection nor used them myself)

Fare Evasion - Penman Sedgwick

penmansedgwick.com

I would say that it's not necessary if you follow Hadders advice in your reply as Northern often settle. But if you use a solicitor it shows you are serious about defending yourswelf - but since you are clearly guilty all they can do is, at a cost to you, seek to minimise the hit you will have in terms of keeping it out of court.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for the help guys. I’ll write my email later.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2022 ==

Hi, what is everyone’s thoughts on getting a solicitor to write a letter. They say they can argue on the grounds that it is not in the public interest to prosecute.
How much would it cost to instruct a solicitor?

My view is that a solicitor is not necessary at this stage. Northern generally seem to offer out of court settlements as long as you haven't come to their attention before.

Reply to them mentioning the points I mentioned upthread. Should this not achieve a satisfactory outcome then you could think about engaging the services of a solicitor.

 

[DirtyOldRiver]

Thanks.
I am thinking, if I write to northern myself, and they do want to prosecute me, I could then instruct a solicitor who could potentially stop it from getting to court, because you can always settle right up to the date of the hearing.
Is that possible or once they decide to prosecute do they not change their minds? and then they can use the public interest argument.

I’ve a quote from a solicitors of who say they charge £375 per hour, and estimate it would take 5-8 hours to cover my case at a cost of £2000-2400.
That can’t be right surely? A paralegal can write up a letter for me in 20 minutes.

Also, Is it ok if I leave it to the deadline to reply?

 

[island]

Thanks.
I am thinking, if I write to northern myself, and they do want to prosecute me, I could then instruct a solicitor who could potentially stop it from getting to court, because you can always settle right up to the date of the hearing.

That is an option that is open to you.

Is that possible or once they decide to prosecute do they not change their minds?

They can change their mind right up until the trial starts.

and then they can use the public interest argument.

I think you are getting confused here. The police and CPS need to assess whether a prosecution is in the public interest. "Private" prosecutors, such as train companies, do not (even though they may happen to be publicly owned, as Northern is).

I’ve a quote from a solicitors of who say they charge £375 per hour, and estimate it would take 5-8 hours to cover my case at a cost of £2000-2400.

That seems somewhat on the high side for ordinary high street solicitors, though not quite high enough to be an "I don't want to do this" quote. As others advise, I don't think you need a solicitor just yet.

That can’t be right surely? A paralegal can write up a letter for me in 20 minutes.

Writing a letter is many orders of magnitude easier than running a defence case in magistrates court, including reading up on the law, preparing and presenting a defence, etc.

Also, Is it ok if I leave it to the deadline to reply?

I would not do this without good reason. If you know what your reply is going to be, there is unlikely to be a benefit from tardiness in submitting it. Particularly if you are planning to post it, as there are numerous postal strikes scheduled in the coming weeks.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks.
I am thinking, if I write to northern myself, and they do want to prosecute me, I could then instruct a solicitor who could potentially stop it from getting to court, because you can always settle right up to the date of the hearing.
Is that possible or once they decide to prosecute do they not change their minds? and then they can use the public interest argument.

I’ve a quote from a solicitors of who say they charge £375 per hour, and estimate it would take 5-8 hours to cover my case at a cost of £2000-2400.
That can’t be right surely? A paralegal can write up a letter for me in 20 minutes.

Also, Is it ok if I leave it to the deadline to reply?

Well, that's how they (legal profession) make their money - but that sounds high - if I were you I'd get more quotes if you want to go down that route.

But it's not necessary yet IMHO - get your letter written to them, post it here for comment (free of charge!) - then as said in helpful response above from @island get it sent to them ASAP. If you leave it to the last minute, lets say, and the person in the office leaves early that day, they might just push it through to court action before they head home - not a risk you want to take, you are not in a strong potions to argue with them about it after all (not unless you want to pay someone £375 per hour )- get it sent ASAP.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I could then instruct a solicitor who could potentially stop it from getting to court, because you can always settle right up to the date of the hearing.

This is probably just me being fussy about words, but just in case: a settlement is possible right up to the date of the hearing, but only if the railway agrees to let you settle out of court.

So you shouldn't give up hope if you are wanting an out of court settlement and are refused the first time you try - but you always need to know that there's no guarantee that the railway will agree, and you may end up in court anyhow.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks.
I am thinking, if I write to northern myself, and they do want to prosecute me, I could then instruct a solicitor who could potentially stop it from getting to court, because you can always settle right up to the date of the hearing.
Is that possible or once they decide to prosecute do they not change their minds? and then they can use the public interest argument.

I’ve a quote from a solicitors of who say they charge £375 per hour, and estimate it would take 5-8 hours to cover my case at a cost of £2000-2400.
That can’t be right surely? A paralegal can write up a letter for me in 20 minutes.

Also, Is it ok if I leave it to the deadline to reply?

I would not engage a solicitor at this stage. I suspect the solicitor you have obtained a quite from is one who specialises in railway ticketing matters which really isn't needed at this stage. Your case is very straightforward and a local solicitor specialising in criminal defence work will be able to contact Northern should they decide to prosecute.

A solicitor specialising in railway ticketing matters is only needed for very complex cases, for examole those requiring detailed knowledge of the Routeing Guide.

I would not leave it to the last minute to reply. Make sure it gets there several days before the deadline, especially as there are postal delays at the moment due to strike action.

 

[DirtyOldRiver]

Hi, they replied saying I have to pay £90 fine and £25 for the ticket I should have purchased.

They sent the letter out to me the same day I sent off my response.

The letter is attached for anyone interested

My response was short (150 words) and I just did what Hadders told me to say. No waffling.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@DirtyOldRiver. Might seem to be expensive, but if you settle up the £115.40 promptly, you can chalk this one up to experience, and you'll have avoided having been taken to court. Noted that you've only been asked to pay the full fare on just the one occasion that you have claimed a child fare discount to which you weren't entitled.

 

[Elecman]

Pay the settlement offer quickly, case closed no prosecution