Botched Execution or Not??

[DownSouth]

A mat of mine is a Barrister (Not to be confused with a Barista) ... has to visit inmates in HMP Walton ...

Prisons must be great if people come in to bring you freshly made coffee

 

[TheKnightWho]

The trouble is the high security estate environment is anything but harsh and they are not and never have been confronted daily as to the impact of their crimes.

Stop believing the Daily Express and UKIP.

 

[Yew]

How legally would those responsible for the unsafe convictions have actually committed the offence of Murder ?

Yes but then the money used to do loads of things could be better spent .

Do you think it would be any cheaper to administer a CJS with the massive and seemingly endless appeal processes that you would have to have in place if you where to execute people . Not to mention a special fund to compensate the families of those wrongfully convicted and executed ?

Interestingly, before it was abolished, the death penalty in the UK could be carried out in as little as 2 weeks after sentencing

 

[Flamingo]

Ha ha ha. Have yourself a cheesy Facebook "like" for that.

Thank you, I'm here all week! (I nicked it off Radio 4 a few months back!).

 

[Johnuk123]

They are locked up in a cell every night - and sometimes in the day too. If you think it's easy street why not try it ?

How do you suggest they "confront daily the impact of their crimes" ?

Having spent many many years working in the system at several levels at several sites I do have a little bit of inside knowledge. I didn't say it was easy street and if you notice I was talking specifically about the High Security Estate.
That is a part of the prison system that runs quite different to the rest.

I replied to a poster who said they had to "confront daily the impact of their crimes" which they never have to do.

 

[DarloRich]

The trouble is the high security estate environment is anything but harsh and they are not and never have been confronted daily as to the impact of their crimes.

Agreed - I didn’t say that is what happens but what should happen.

High security prison is a different space to the lower categories/run of the mill prisons. Regardless, I wouldn’t want to be locked up and deprived of liberty but the regime is no where near as harsh as I would like to see.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Having spent many many years working in the system at several levels at several sites I do have a little bit of inside knowledge. I didn't say it was easy street and if you notice I was talking specifically about the High Security Estate.
That is a part of the prison system that runs quite different to the rest.

I replied to a poster who said they had to "confront daily the impact of their crimes" which they never have to do.

But what's the point of prison? It's not really revenge, is it? I mean, if we want a good justice system we want one that doesn't cause reoffending and ideally readies prisoners for reintegrating. If neither of those are possible, then they clearly need help, and not grinding into the dust even more.

Confronting the impact of their crimes might be a way to do that, yes, but all prison does is lock people away out of sight and out of mind. And that works both ways: they can't see everyone else either, and frankly it can be safer on the inside with some semblance of stability than on the outside, where they often have no idea what to do with themselves, and just resort to crime because society refuses to help them get back on their feet.

And if you want evidence of a harsher prison system DarloRich just look over the pond. That's hardly a way for us to start conducting ourselves.

 

[Johnuk123]

Agreed - I didn’t say that is what happens but what should happen.

High security prison is a different space to the lower categories/run of the mill prisons. Regardless, I wouldn’t want to be locked up and deprived of liberty but the regime is no where near as harsh as I would like to see.

Most people will never see inside a High Security prison but the ones that do like visiting teachers and various contractors all in my experience always appear very surprised at how easy the regime is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But what's the point of prison? It's not really revenge, is it? I mean, if we want a good justice system we want one that doesn't cause reoffending and ideally readies prisoners for reintegrating. If neither of those are possible, then they clearly need help, and not grinding into the dust even more.

Confronting the impact of their crimes might be a way to do that, yes, but all prison does is lock people away out of sight and out of mind. And that works both ways: they can't see everyone else either, and frankly it can be safer on the inside with some semblance of stability than on the outside, where they often have no idea what to do with themselves, and just resort to crime because society refuses to help them get back on their feet.

And if you want evidence of a harsher prison system DarloRich just look over the pond. That's hardly a way for us to start conducting ourselves.

As everybody knows there are no votes in prisons, the vast majority of the public would see money go anywhere else.
No party faced with calls from everywhere for more cash will spend it on prisons.

Like a lot of the public sector staffing has been cut to the bone and staff are finding it hard enough to maintain the daily regime let alone sit down with prisoners or organise offending behaviour work.

I agree that the system as it is won't rehabilitate most regular prison dwellers, certain groups do take place but are always the first thing to be cancelled.

Any governor worth his salt knows that visits and the gym are untouchable, workshops, education and courses are always the first to go.

 

[DarloRich]

Most people will never see inside a High Security prison but the ones that do like visiting teachers and various contractors all in my experience always appear very surprised at how easy the regime is.

I have seen inside several but the witness "disappeared" so...........


It isn’t somewhere I would like to be but they are different to the lower level prisons. For one they didn’t seem to have that edge of violence and menace that often came with the other prisons (despite being full of obscenely violent/mentality disturbed people) they seem cleaner and more laid back somehow. It is the opposite to what you would except

As everybody knows there are no votes in prisons, the vast majority of the public would see money go anywhere else.
No party faced with calls from everywhere for more cash will spend it on prisons.

Like a lot of the public sector staffing has been cut to the bone and staff are finding it hard enough to maintain the daily regime let alone sit down with prisoners or organise offending behaviour work.

I agree that the system as it is won't rehabilitate most regular prison dwellers, certain groups do take place but are always the first thing to be cancelled.

Any governor worth his salt knows that visits and the gym are untouchable, workshops, education and courses are always the first to go.

And if you want evidence of a harsher prison system DarloRich just look over the pond. That's hardly a way for us to start conducting ourselves.

Why not? Punishment, and part of prison is punishment, should be harsh. The other aspect is rehabilitation, which has to come through a much improved educational system. Participation in such a system, along with good behaviour, earns you privileges.

BTW the educational standard of many prisoners is terrible. If banged up for years coming out being able to read should be a major goal of any rehabilitation system!

 

[radamfi]

Could it possibly be because uncivilised people can become civilised if they actually try , whereas ceasing reproduction, which you inferred and no I'm not searching for your original post, would result in the end of civilised and uncivilised people full stop, a subtle difference I believe

What is the chance that society will be sufficiently 'civilised' to make you satisfied? There have always been bad things happening and there always will in the future. It is true that crime in the western world has fallen in recent decades, but there are still going to be unfortunate people who suffer from 'uncivilised' behaviour from others.

The main issue isn't really serious crimes like murder as they are relatively few and far between. What is more important is the general selfishness of humanity and the lots of minor things that people do and say to each other that is the real issue. These things are not considered crimes but cause most of the misery in the world.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Most people will never see inside a High Security prison but the ones that do like visiting teachers and various contractors all in my experience always appear very surprised at how easy the regime is.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



As everybody knows there are no votes in prisons, the vast majority of the public would see money go anywhere else.
No party faced with calls from everywhere for more cash will spend it on prisons.

Like a lot of the public sector staffing has been cut to the bone and staff are finding it hard enough to maintain the daily regime let alone sit down with prisoners or organise offending behaviour work.

I agree that the system as it is won't rehabilitate most regular prison dwellers, certain groups do take place but are always the first thing to be cancelled.

Any governor worth his salt knows that visits and the gym are untouchable, workshops, education and courses are always the first to go.

I'm sure there could be a way of selling it in a better fashion so the general public would buy it, but I don't think the doom-mongering papers would help.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why not? Punishment, and part of prison is punishment, should be harsh. The other aspect is rehabilitation, which has to come through a much improved educational system. Participation in such a system, along with good behaviour, earns you privileges.

BTW the educational standard of many prisoners is terrible. If banged up for years coming out being able to read should be a major goal of any rehabilitation system!

Can you not see how that's a self-perpetuating cycle? People are poorly educated, and so they resort to crime because they don't know better. Once you're on a life sentence in the US, there's no incentive for good behaviour anymore. This is a well-known phenomenon.

The US system effectively treats them like caged animals, and they act accordingly. It's no wonder they never improve. Yes, punishment should be a factor, but not at the detriment of ruining thousands of people's lives - the current system affects more than just the prisoners. Reoffending rates are high because of it, and that says nothing about the effects it has on the children and family, who themselves are more likely to turn to crime because of it.

The whole thing is is a mess.

 

[muz379]

In the 19th and first half of the 20th Century it was considered to be adequate. I'm not saying it was right or not, just that saying the cost of "Death Row" prisoners in the USA would be much the same if given life sentences in lieu, as the jail time for many years is equivalent. This cost could be stripped if they had a quicker "turn around"!

It also used to be the law and fashionable to wire the mentally ill and homosexuals up to the mains to try and cure them of their terrible diseases . Doesn't mean that we should go back there .

Of course it would be cheaper to have a quicker turnaround , but that cost puts innocent lives at risk .

Interestingly, before it was abolished, the death penalty in the UK could be carried out in as little as 2 weeks after sentencing

And the result of that was some innocent people being killed . Not a risk that I would say is acceptable to take .

 

[DownSouth]

The death penalty doesn't actually work as a deterrent. Look at the murder rate in the USA compared to more civilised countries.

 

[bb21]

I have always wondered about the use of the word "civilised" in these threads. What is the definition of "civilised"?

How do you measure it? How is a country more "civilised" than another? As I said in a previous thread, why is a country like Japan judged to be less "civilised" than other countries because of the death penalty? Which countries are more "civilised" than the US? Which is the most "civilised" country in the world?

It just seems to me to be a term used for a moral crusade over others more than anything else.

Different countries choose different approaches to criminal justice. It doesn't mean one is less "civilised" than anothe to me.

 

[SS4]

I have always wondered about the use of the word "civilised" in these threads. What is the definition of "civilised"?
.

I would define it in terms of adherence to the UN Declaration of Human Rights - those higher up are more civilised but you raise a good point, it's one of those weasel words which implies anyone who disagrees is uncivilised and therefore lesser.

 

[Bevan Price]

Complete and utter rubbish. News agendas are driven by the best stories of the day and nothing else.

Or in some so-called "news"papers, the agendas seem to be determined by the size of women's T*ts.

 

[muddythefish]

It just seems to me to be a term used for a moral crusade over others more than anything else.

Different countries choose different approaches to criminal justice. It doesn't mean one is less "civilised" than anothe to me.

Or course morals are involved. Unless you think it is morally right to take one life for another.

The club of death-penalty nations include some of world's great dictatorships and autocracies, not to mention the entire Middle East save Israel.

Civilised nations don't have state executions - and that includes the US.