Borisbuses and paper tickets

[tannedfrog]

Can a paper ticketholder use the middle and rear entrances of Borisbuses? The conductor guy I met at the rear entrance recently was very unkeen to let me board without a beep from the machine and tried to send me to the driver.

 

[ModernRailways]

I've always got on no bother. Although I always use the back or front and show my ticket as I get on.

If you got on at the middle and didn't beep then I think it would look a little suspicious since that was one of the huge ways of avoiding the fare on the bendies.

 

[bakerstreet]

I've only ever seen two signs re this. On the dot matrix words to the effect of 'you may board or alight from any door'. On signs on the doors words to the effect of 'cash users must board through front door'.
I have a paper ticket. I always jump on and off the back, as that was the right which Boris proudly gave back to Londoners!!

 

[34D]

Hmmm - your journey isn't recorded though. The driver needs too press their button to record travelcard (et al) for you to 'count' in the stats.

 

[Mike395]

Hmmm - your journey isn't recorded though. The driver needs too press their button to record travelcard (et al) for you to 'count' in the stats.

In my view, that's not the passenger's problem! If a sign says 'board by any door unless you wish to pay cash' (paraphrased slightly but that's the gist of it) that's exactly what it means in my view, and therefore a passenger cannot be penalised for boarding by the middle or rear doors with, for example, a paper Travelcard.

 

[ECML180]

You'd be forgiven for thinking they'd just give the conductor a ticket machine to use!

 

[Tetchytyke]

In my view, that's not the passenger's problem! If a sign says 'board by any door unless you wish to pay cash' (paraphrased slightly but that's the gist of it) that's exactly what it means in my view

It doesn't say that, it clearly says holders of paper tickets must use the front door. It's the same on the "Red Arrows" Citaros.

The TfL website says the same thing.

 

[Crossover]

Complete waste of time having the open back if no-one can use it to board...takes away the spirit of the bloody things!

 

[bakerstreet]

Complete waste of time having the open back if no-one can use it to board...takes away the spirit of the bloody things!

Agreed!

It doesn't say that, it clearly says holders of paper tickets must use the front door. It's the same on the "Red Arrows" Citaros.

Sorry Arctic Troll it doesn't say that - at least it doesn't on the ones I have seen

Here is the pic..

Hopefully that big sign at every entrance including the rear open platform and announcements and digital displays on board which all are contrary to the website will prevail in any dispute

 

[Tetchytyke]

Sorry Arctic Troll it doesn't say that - at least it doesn't on the ones I have seen

Fair enough. I'm certain it used to say you had to use the front doors with paper tickets, but I don't have a picture to prove it. I've had an Oyster for years so not really paid attention, although I do now have a paper Travelcard.

 

[radamfi]

I do remember the advice that you had to use the front door with a paper ticket. I remember a conductor telling me I had to board at the front when he saw I didn't touch in. But I think that rule has been quietly dropped. It is not practical now considering so many of those buses now don't have a conductor, so are effectively free boarding anyway.

 

[34D]

Sorry but where a sign tells you to touch your oyster, it is intuitive to me that if you don't have oyster you need to board by the driver.

You'll only shoot yourselves in the foot if you dont

 

[radamfi]

I assume the rule about having to show the ticket to the driver, and all Oyster season ticket passengers having to touch in, was so that it didn't look like a lot of people weren't paying. With bendy buses you only had to touch in the Oyster if you had PAYG. Obviously that's pretty much out of the window now it looks like most NBfL buses will not have a conductor.

 

[tannedfrog]

You'll only shoot yourselves in the foot if you dont

I don't really understand this. Also the conductor told me it was "my risk" if I didn't show the driver, which I don't really understand given that I clearly had a valid ticket.

I have never seen drivers in London pressing any button to record paper tickets.

 

[hassaanhc]

I have never seen drivers in London pressing any button to record paper tickets.

They do, there is a button on there which records them so they appear on the slips given to RPIs

 

[34D]

I don't really understand this.

If you don't let the driver record your journey then TfL don't know how busy the route was, so can't plan properly to match demand. It's all very well them knowing that a bus had 50 oyster users on, but if there were also 30 travelcard people then that changes it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They do, there is a button on there which records them so they appear on the slips given to RPIs

Yes - if the slip records 0 travelcards then the RPI finds you, I would expect a telling off

 

[Robertj21a]

If you don't let the driver record your journey then TfL don't know how busy the route was, so can't plan properly to match demand. It's all very well them knowing that a bus had 50 oyster users on, but if there were also 30 travelcard people then that changes it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes - if the slip records 0 travelcards then the RPI finds you, I would expect a telling off

Unfortunately, it doesn't really prove anything. On most busy London routes passengers will be getting on/off frequently but some will stay on to the end. So the number of people supposedly on board with travelcards is meaningless as there is no record of where they are going.

Many drivers don't appear to press any buttons for travelcards, or for those concessionary passes from outside the TfL area.

Robert

 

[ModernRailways]

Unfortunately, it doesn't really prove anything. On most busy London routes passengers will be getting on/off frequently but some will stay on to the end. So the number of people supposedly on board with travelcards is meaningless as there is no record of where they are going.

Many drivers don't appear to press any buttons for travelcards, or for those concessionary passes from outside the TfL area.

Robert

I've noticed they tend to count them as people board and then they push the button once everyone is on.

 

[Panda]

I've witnessed a few drivers who just seem uninterested to record these (most drivers do it properly) - but I've also send drivers who "over-report" - push that button once or twice too many times.

 

[Busaholic]

I've witnessed a few drivers who just seem uninterested to record these (most drivers do it properly) - but I've also send drivers who "over-report" - push that button once or twice too many times.

I was told by RPI that it was okay to board by any entrance, and that was AFTER he had inspected my Cornwall-issued Concessionary Pass without demur, plus my companion's.

 

[Be3G]

My understanding – which could be wrong but I haven't yet seen anything to contradict me – is that in London we have four different methods of boarding depending on the bus route used:

• Boarding by the front door, ensuring you either touch in or show the driver a paper ticket – as used by most of London's buses;
• Board by the front door if holding a paper ticket, or any door and touch in if using Oyster – as used on the NBfL routes;
• Board by any door with no requirement to present a ticket anywhere unless using PAYG – as used on the bendy buses, and still used by the bendy-in-spirit-but-not-nature Red Arrow buses;
• Board at the back, and show the conductor a paper ticket or touch in – as used on, sadly, only the 15H now.

I admit that what I say about the 507/521 above could be out of date, as it's been a few years since I last caught one. It definitely used to be as I described though, even after de-bendification, the reasoning being that many commuters using them would have paper season tickets (as they'd have arrived from outside London at the major rail termini) which would negate the dual-door boarding if they all had to queue to show the tickets to the driver.

 

[Abpj17]

I aim to board at the front; but if it's very busy or there is a risk of missing it, I'll get on at any of the doors.

 

[ModernRailways]

My understanding – which could be wrong but I haven't yet seen anything to contradict me – is that in London we have four different methods of boarding depending on the bus route used:

• Boarding by the front door, ensuring you either touch in or show the driver a paper ticket – as used by most of London's buses;
• Board by the front door if holding a paper ticket, or any door and touch in if using Oyster – as used on the NBfL routes;
• Board by any door with no requirement to present a ticket anywhere – as used on the bendy buses, and still used by the bendy-in-spirit-but-not-nature Red Arrow buses;
• Board at the back, and show the conductor a paper ticket or touch in – as used on, sadly, only the 15H now.

I admit that what I say about the 507/521 above could be out of date, as it's been a few years since I last caught one. It definitely used to be as I described though, even after de-bendification, the reasoning being that many commuters using them would have paper season tickets (as they'd have arrived from outside London at the major rail termini) which would negate the dual-door boarding if they all had to queue to show the tickets to the driver.

I thought you were allowed to board any door on a NBfL with a paper ticket? I usually board at the back (if it's open) with a travelcard and the conductor always checks it and just lets me on.

 

[PeterC]

I thought you were allowed to board any door on a NBfL with a paper ticket? I usually board at the back (if it's open) with a travelcard and the conductor always checks it and just lets me on.

I looked this up not long ago and unless they have changed the rules in the last 6 weeks or so the middle and rear doors should only be used when touching in. From reports here it is clear that the operating companies' staff are either poorly trained or just think that rule is silly and ignore it.

Using my ENCTS card in London I think that drivers record it on about 50% of journeys.

 

[PermitToTravel]

IIRC you can touch in on the readers with a foreign ENCTS card

 

[Busaholic]

I thought you were allowed to board any door on a NBfL with a paper ticket? I usually board at the back (if it's open) with a travelcard and the conductor always checks it and just lets me on.

Give it a year or so and there won't be any more 'conductors' to perform this task anyway as it has been announced by the Mayor's office all future conversions to NB4L will be driver-only.

 

[Antman]

Give it a year or so and there won't be any more 'conductors' to perform this task anyway as it has been announced by the Mayor's office all future conversions to NB4L will be driver-only.

Which of course defeats the whole purpose of the bus although I understood the forthcoming 137 conversion will include conductors?

 

[PeterC]

Give it a year or so and there won't be any more 'conductors' to perform this task anyway as it has been announced by the Mayor's office all future conversions to NB4L will be driver-only.

How long before somebody notices that high levels of fare evasion come with three door boarding rather than because the bus bends in the middle?

 

[Busaholic]

Which of course defeats the whole purpose of the bus although I understood the forthcoming 137 conversion will include conductors?

I wonder whether it now will: unless Arriva London South have already recruited for this purpose then I'm doubtful, because they're not advertising the jobs.

 

[starrymarkb]

How long before somebody notices that high levels of fare evasion come with three door boarding rather than because the bus bends in the middle?

Soon I'd hope. Open Boarding works well where random inspections happen frequently. If the chances of being caught are high then people won't risk it!