Boris Johnson is a liability.

[fowler9]

Not long, I paid it little attention as it was just yet more wibble.

Aww shucks. If I’m ever in Liverpool, or next time you’re in the big smoke, there’s a pint with your name on it.



You’re quite right, excessive jargon is poor communication. So is referring to the thread subject other than by the name they are commonly known as!

Ha ha. Likewise. I'll shout you one back and we can put the world to rights.

 

[bramling]

I realised that but the image of Jeremy Corbyn addressing Conservative Party Conference did intrigue me!

It certainly would be a change from something like the Durham Miners’ Gala which is the sort of audience his core message is aimed towards...

 

[Bromley boy]

It certainly would be a change from something like the Durham Miners’ Gala which is the sort of audience his core message is aimed towards...

Slightly off topic.

But that’s an interesting point. Does Corbyn’s Labour really appeal to its northern working class heartland any more?

It strikes me Labour’s appeal these days is less to Durham miners than it is to a weird combination of deluded trots, naive students, religious conservatives (from one religion in particular) and rich, clueless urbanites who live in zone 1, eat quinoa on toast for breakfast every morning, and don’t actually have to work for a living.

I’m sure I read an article recently citing statistics showing how many traditional working class voters no longer believe Labour represents them. I’ll try and dig it out.

 

[muddythefish]

Jeremy draws record crowds at the Durham Miners Gala.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...elps-draw-record-crowds-to-durham-miners-gala

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/huge-turnout-durham-miners-gala-12916003

Surveys shows that age and education are more important than class, with young and educated people more likely to vote for Labour than for the dinosaurs in the Conservatives, who are dying out in ever increasing numbers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...elderly-support-base-pensioners-a7798386.html

The Tories finally ditching the hopeless May and placing the likes of Alexander or Mediocre Jake O'Grease-Smogg, the toff who loves this country so much he moved his business to Ireland, in No 10 will only drive more people into the Labour fold.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Jeremy draws record crowds at the Durham Miners Gala.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...elps-draw-record-crowds-to-durham-miners-gala

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/huge-turnout-durham-miners-gala-12916003

Surveys shows that age and education are more important than class, with young and educated people more likely to vote for Labour than for the dinosaurs in the Conservatives, who are dying out in ever increasing numbers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...elderly-support-base-pensioners-a7798386.html

The Tories finally ditching the hopeless May and placing the likes of Alexander or Mediocre Jake O'Grease-Smogg, the toff who loves this country so much he moved his business to Ireland, in No 10 will only drive more people into the Labour fold.

hmm.... I'm no fan of the Tories... but do you really think that normal, sane, rational people will vote for Corbyn... the same Corbyn that cosies up to murderous terrorists? who is anti-everything- but can't say what he's actually for? and most importantly the same Corbyn who is so deluded that when Labour lost the last election he called it a "victory". A victory over what exactly? of the lunatics over reality?

 

[fowler9]

Slightly off topic.

But that’s an interesting point. Does Corbyn’s Labour really appeal to its northern working class heartland any more?

It strikes me Labour’s appeal these days is less to Durham miners than it is to a weird combination of deluded trots, naive students, religious conservatives (from one religion in particular) and rich, clueless urbanites who live in zone 1, eat quinoa on toast for breakfast every morning, and don’t actually have to work for a living.

I’m sure I read an article recently citing statistics showing how many traditional working class voters no longer believe Labour represents them. I’ll try and dig it out.

I do wonder. I view myself very much as a socialist and at first Corbyn really appealed. He doesn't any more but I wonder if that is perhaps because a lot of the stuff we read about him in the main stream media is him explaining his connections to some less than savoury characters. I think he is a bit of a turtle on a post. I don't think he ever planned to be a Labour leader and has somehow ended up there. He has something in common with Boris Johnson in that he is totally unsuited to leading a country. The difference in my opinion is that he doesn't crave power like Johnson seems to. Johnson will say absolutely anything to get people on side, where Corbyn gets my favour is that he has the courage of his convictions. Someone can probably prove me wrong but I don't think Corbyn has ever denied anything he has done, Johnson flip flops on everything.

Regarding quinoa, have you ever tried it? Completely pointless. If you eat enough it might fill you up and not give you a heart attack. Just to prove my socialist credentials I have been to Bolivia where a lot of it is grown. Stunning country with a very popular leader who is gradually getting less popular after doing stuff like building a new government skyscraper in La Paz right by the historic old centre by Plaza Murillo while a lot of the country is poor. I think sadly he has gone a bit power mad.

 

[fowler9]

hmm.... I'm no fan of the Tories... but do you really think that normal, sane, rational people will vote for Corbyn... the same Corbyn that cosies up to murderous terrorists? who is anti-everything- but can't say what he's actually for? and most importantly the same Corbyn who is so deluded that when Labour lost the last election he called it a "victory". A victory over what exactly? of the lunatics over reality?

To be fair the Tories had to shake the magic money tree and cosy up to the nutters in the DUP so they could form a government.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Someone can probably prove me wrong but I don't think Corbyn has ever denied anything he has done, Johnson flip flops on everything.

how about denying he took part in a ceremony in honour of the Munich Olympics terrorists... even after pictures emerged of him holding the wreath!

To be fair the Tories had to shake the magic money tree and cosy up to the nutters in the DUP so they could form a government.

but even if they hadn't done so the Tories would still be in government... they had more seats than Labour...

 

[fowler9]

how about denying he took part in a ceremony in honour of the Munich Olympics terrorists... even after pictures emerged of him holding the wreath!



but even if they hadn't done so the Tories would still be in government... they had more seats than Labour...

I believe there has been plenty of debate about what that ceremony was for. He never denied he was there, how could he. Regarding the general election it was a small victory for want of a better term, they gave the Tories a bloody nose.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I believe there has been plenty of debate about what that ceremony was for. He never denied he was there, how could he. Regarding the general election it was a small victory for want of a better term, they gave the Tories a bloody nose.

regarding the ceremony... he says he was there but didn't take part... which is absolute nonsense... if you go to a ceremony then by definition the act of being there means you are taking part... NOTE he didn't choose to walk out did he?

regarding the general election... it's like a race... you either come in first...in which case you are the victor, or you come in second, third or fourth and you are deemed a loser.... now... which party came first? the Tories which came 2nd? Labour. So by definition the Tories were the victors and Labour the losers..

I really don't see how you can say that they gave the Tories a bloody nose... the Tories are still there...if anything there is one person propping up this shambles of a government... and that is Corbyn

 

[Bromley boy]

Jeremy draws record crowds at the Durham Miners Gala.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...elps-draw-record-crowds-to-durham-miners-gala

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/huge-turnout-durham-miners-gala-12916003

Surveys shows that age and education are more important than class, with young and educated people more likely to vote for Labour than for the dinosaurs in the Conservatives, who are dying out in ever increasing numbers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...elderly-support-base-pensioners-a7798386.html

The Tories finally ditching the hopeless May and placing the likes of Alexander or Mediocre Jake O'Grease-Smogg, the toff who loves this country so much he moved his business to Ireland, in No 10 will only drive more people into the Labour fold.

But how many people at the Durham Miners’ gala are actually miners (come to think of it, haven’t the mines all closed?), or traditionally working class people, as opposed to a trot gathering of the loony left and activists? I perhaps misunderstood what the Durham miners gala was - I assumed it was a gathering of the traditional working classes - and hence also misunderstood @bramling ’s reference to it.

This was the article I was referring to:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/10/swing-voters-say-labour-is-the-party-of-quinoa

“It was so striking that what people said to us was: Labour used to be working class, it used to be a pie and a pint – it’s now a protesting student. It used to be someone playing the bingo; now it’s someone going on a demo,” she said.

The much larger-scale polling, carried out last week, underlined those perceptions and sounded a warning that taking a definitive position on Brexit could hurt Labour’s standing.

In the relation to the second part of your post, people who vote Tory tend to be older, better educated higher earners who own property. Yes May is hopeless but the alternative for Tory voters certainly isn’t hard left Labour. They’re more likely not to vote or vote for UKIP/another right wing party.

As an opposition government Corbyn’s labour is languishing far behind where it should be after this many years out of office. Their trumpeting of being the “biggest political party in Europe” isn’t translating into election results.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

In the relation to the second part of your post, people who vote Tory tend to be older, better educated higher earners who own property. Yes May is hopeless but the alternative for Tory voters certainly isn’t hard left Labour. They’re more likely not to vote or vote for UKIP/another right wing party.

I don't think it's all about class and earnings.... Age does have a lot to do with it... certainly I considered myself a communist when I was {much} younger... both parents were Labour voters and yet I thought they were ultra right wing! As I got older my views "moderated" more to centre left.. however by this time my Dad had become one of the "flog em and hang em" brigade which drove me right up the wall.... now another 15 yrs on I can really see where my Dad was coming from with his views in later life... and shock, horror.... if the Tories ever find themselves a decent leader I might just vote for them!.. I'll certainly never vote Labour while the lunatics have the keys to the asylum!

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't think he ever planned to be a Labour leader and has somehow ended up there. He has something in common with Boris Johnson in that he is totally unsuited to leading a country. The difference in my opinion is that he doesn't crave power like Johnson seems to. Johnson will say absolutely anything to get people on side, where Corbyn gets my favour is that he has the courage of his convictions. Someone can probably prove me wrong but I don't think Corbyn has ever denied anything he has done, Johnson flip flops on everything.

I agree both are unsuited to the role. So is the current PM, such is the current state of U.K. politics!

I think Corbyn is a conviction politician more than BoJo, and I suppose I respect him for that that. Trouble is his convictions are simply dogma: he hasn’t modified any of his views since the 1970s. He’s also more focussed on international issues than domestic matters.

If I had to chose between the two for pm (politics aside), BoJo is at least an experienced and accomplished politician, whose held high office. Jezza is a back bench rabbit in the headlights in his current position.

Regarding quinoa, have you ever tried it? Completely pointless. If you eat enough it might fill you up and not give you a heart attack. Just to prove my socialist credentials I have been to Bolivia where a lot of it is grown. Stunning country with a very popular leader who is gradually getting less popular after doing stuff like building a new government skyscraper in La Paz right by the historic old centre by Plaza Murillo while a lot of the country is poor. I think sadly he has gone a bit power mad.

I have tried quinoa, I’m more of a “smashed avocado” man .

There’s a wanky cafe near me that charges £3+ for a small coffee, and £8 for scrambled eggs and baked beans on toast, served with a snarl. London is becoming a nightmare!

I think you might even agree with me that certain central/South American countries, which Corbyn seems to favour, demonstrate very well why his policies simply don’t work in real life.

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't think it's all about class and earnings.... Age does have a lot to do with it... certainly I considered myself a communist when I was {much} younger... both parents were Labour voters and yet I thought they were ultra right wing! As I got older my views "moderated" more to centre left.. however by this time my Dad had become one of the "flog em and hang em" brigade which drove me right up the wall.... now another 15 yrs on I can really see where my Dad was coming from with his views in later life... and shock, horror.... if the Tories ever find themselves a decent leader I might just vote for them!.. I'll certainly never vote Labour while the lunatics have the keys to the asylum!

That’s the usual trajectory.

As I’ve got older, I’ve settled into being centre right, a “compassionate conservative”, with a strong desire for social/sexual/racial equality, but fundamentally wanting personal freedom, small government and low taxes.

My dad’s political views would be unpublishable on this forum. With every passing year, I can increasingly see where he’s coming from .

 

[muddythefish]

BoJo is at least an experienced and accomplished politician.

I love satire.

 

[muddythefish]

As I got older my views "moderated" more to centre left.. !

I've moved farther left, particularly since the financial crisis. 2008 opened my eyes to the rotten state of the system and the need for radical reform. The Tories' austerity dogma and Cameron's reckless calling of the EU referendum ensured I will never vote for them as long as I live.

 

[Bromley boy]

I love satire.

Are you now telling the forum that someone who has spent:

- 8 years as mayor of London;
- 2 years as Secretary of State;
- 3 years as a shadow minister in various roles
- has been an MP since 2001

Isn’t an experienced and accomplished politician?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I've moved farther left, particularly since the financial crisis. 2008 opened my eyes to the rotten state of the system and the need for radical reform. The Tories' austerity dogma and Cameron's reckless calling of the EU referendum ensured I will never vote for them as long as I live.

hmm well if you want to vote for Comrade Corbyn for those reasons then go ahead... but just remember what a wonderful economic success the communist model was for: Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Romania, Hungary, Albania, Russia, Cuba......

and of course not forgetting the disastrous Labour tenure of the mid to late 70's with it's "tax the rich til they squeal" policies which led to those wonderful Thatcher yrs and the distruction of our manufacturing base!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Are you now telling the forum that someone who has spent:

- 8 years as mayor of London;
- 2 years as Secretary of State;
- 3 years as a shadow minister in various roles
- has been an MP since 2001

Isn’t an experienced and accomplished politician?

yes, but so were Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin... so really "experienced and accomplished" isn't really the qualification I look for in a potential leader... what we really need as PM is a person who has a proven track record of putting others needs before their own selfish desires.... so on that count I reckon the job should go to Jacob Rees-Mogg's nanny

 

[Bromley boy]

I've moved farther left, particularly since the financial crisis. 2008 opened my eyes to the rotten state of the system and the need for radical reform. The Tories' austerity dogma and Cameron's reckless calling of the EU referendum ensured I will never vote for them as long as I live.

Jesus!

If you were my pet fish I’d light a Bunsen burner under your tank, wait until you’d died, and flush you down the loo.

 

[mmh]

Slightly off topic.

But that’s an interesting point. Does Corbyn’s Labour really appeal to its northern working class heartland any more?

It strikes me Labour’s appeal these days is less to Durham miners than it is to a weird combination of deluded trots, naive students, religious conservatives (from one religion in particular) and rich, clueless urbanites who live in zone 1, eat quinoa on toast for breakfast every morning, and don’t actually have to work for a living.

I’m sure I read an article recently citing statistics showing how many traditional working class voters no longer believe Labour represents them. I’ll try and dig it out.

I think, as a life-long Labour voter, that's the problem Labour have in a nutshell. They seem to be incapable as a party to realise they're alienating their core support. I voted for Corbyn for leader (twice) - much of the support came from members who were quite happy to give their vote to an outsider purely on the basis that he seemed to be a conviction politician, unfashionable, perhaps old-fashioned, and the antithesis of the Blair era airbrushed nonentities everyone hated.

I still strongly believe he is a principled politician, however leading a party full of people who'd prefer to stab him in the back for their own gain than actually see him succeed. Too many people who'd prefer to be on the shadow front bench than in a government on the backbenches.

You're spot on about the clueless quinoa munchers, they really don't understand that their obsessions have no relevance to the bulk of people who actually vote for the party and they risk losing the "core vote" they arrogantly assume will always vote for them because there's, to quote Thatch!, "no alternative".

 

[fowler9]

Speaking for myself I guess I am looking for a third way, an alternative. I think that Boris Johnson would be an entirely inappropriate leader. Too much baggage and to much self interest. Theresa May, meh. Corbyn, I think, believe it or not, his heart is in the right place, but not to lead. I mentioned Bolivia before and Evo Morales was extremely popular when I was there and seemed to be doing a good job dragging the country up from the dirt, it's all going a bit more t*ts up now although not as bad as Venezuela. The USA is just a mess, albeit for many a wealthy one. I wish I knew the answer. People are just too selfish and with the rise on the right in Europe I fear for us all.

 

[Bromley boy]

yes, but so were Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin... so really "experienced and accomplished" isn't really the qualification I look for in a potential leader... what we really need as PM is a person who has a proven track record of putting others needs before their own selfish desires.... so on that count I reckon the job should go to Jacob Rees-Mogg's nanny

Point taken, but Jezza is a backbencher with little political merit. Boris has at least served at higher levels of government and is experienced.

He’d be a poor choice for PM too, but he’d to a better job than Jezza. He might even do a better job than Teresa May.

Do I think he’d make a good PM? No, not at all.

What a dreadful state U.K. politics is in when we have no alternatives to these people!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Point taken, but Jezza is a backbencher with little political merit. Boris has at least served at higher levels of government and is experienced.

He’d be a poor choice for PM too, but he’d to a better job than Jezza. He might even do a better job than Teresa May.

Do I think he’d make a good PM? No, not at all.

What a dreadful state U.K. politics is in when we have no alternatives to these people!

which is why I suggested Rees-Mogg's nanny... well she's used to clearing up a tory twit's sh*t ain't she? lol

 

[fowler9]

Point taken, but Jezza is a backbencher with little political merit. Boris has at least served at higher levels of government and is experienced.

He’d be a poor choice for PM too, but he’d to a better job than Jezza. He might even do a better job than Teresa May.

Do I think he’d make a good PM? No, not at all.

What a dreadful state U.K. politics is in when we have no alternatives to these people!

Jacob Rees-Mogg. Ha ha.

 

[Bromley boy]

I think, as a life-long Labour voter, that's the problem Labour have in a nutshell. They seem to be incapable as a party to realise they're alienating their core support. I voted for Corbyn for leader (twice) - much of the support came from members who were quite happy to give their vote to an outsider purely on the basis that he seemed to be a conviction politician, unfashionable, perhaps old-fashioned, and the antithesis of the Blair era airbrushed nonentities everyone hated.

I still strongly believe he is a principled politician, however leading a party full of people who'd prefer to stab him in the back for their own gain than actually see him succeed. Too many people who'd prefer to be on the shadow front bench than in a government on the backbenches.

You're spot on about the clueless quinoa munchers, they really don't understand that their obsessions have no relevance to the bulk of people who actually vote for the party and they risk losing the "core vote" they arrogantly assume will always vote for them because there's, to quote Thatch!, "no alternative".

Speaking for myself I guess I am looking for a third way, an alternative. I think that Boris Johnson would be an entirely inappropriate leader. Too much baggage and to much self interest. Theresa May, meh. Corbyn, I think, believe it or not, his heart is in the right place, but not to lead. I mentioned Bolivia before and Evo Morales was extremely popular when I was there and seemed to be doing a good job dragging the country up from the dirt, it's all going a bit more t*ts up now although not as bad as Venezuela. The USA is just a mess, albeit for many a wealthy one. I wish I knew the answer. People are just too selfish and with the rise on the right in Europe I fear for us all.

Two excellent posts which demonstrate why Labour, in its current incarnation, simply doesn’t deliver the goods for sensible, left of centre voters.

which is why I suggested Rees-Mogg's nanny... well she's used to clearing up a tory twit's sh*t ain't she? lol

Maybe she should be our PM, she couldn’t do a worse job.

Jacob Rees-Mogg. Ha ha.

Bright, but weird. Gove is also bright, but even weirder (is he on some kind of register somewhere?). Neither have any charisma, nor leadership ability.

Who are we left with on the Tory side, given that Labour is now an electoral basket case?

 

[mmh]

Bright, but weird. Gove is also bright, but even weirder (is he on some kind of register somewhere?). Neither have any charisma, nor leadership ability

Who are we left with on the Tory side, given that Labour is now an electoral basket case?

If Rees-Mogg wasn't such a divisive figure who knows. This footage of him questioning Guy Verhofstadt is well worth watching, if you don't bother to watch all of it the "highlight" is from about 2 minutes 30 to 6 minutes.

I'm no particular fan of him, but I can't fault that.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Two excellent posts which demonstrate why Labour, in its current incarnation, simply doesn’t deliver the goods for sensible, left of centre voters.



Maybe she should be our PM, she couldn’t do a worse job.



Bright, but weird. Gove is also bright, but even weirder (is he on some kind of register somewhere?). Neither have any charisma, nor leadership ability.

Who are we left with on the Tory side, given that Labour is now an electoral basket case?

I think half the problem with BOTH parties is that there is a lack of people that are big names... I mean... where are all the back bench MP's that are well known? not so long ago there were dozens that you could name, whether or not you had any real interest in politics... nowadays you'd be hard pushed to name more than a dozen from ALL parties...

For the Tories I think the best they can hope is that Ruth Davidson is encouraged to get a seat in Westminster so that she can lead the party... though I don't think the Tory Grandees would like her... too modern for their liking I should think

 

[Bromley boy]

If Rees-Mogg wasn't such a divisive figure who knows. This footage of him questioning Guy Verhofstadt is well worth watching, if you don't bother to watch all of it the "highlight" is from about 2 minutes 30 to 6 minutes.

I'm no particular fan of him, but I can't fault that.

Agreed.

He rather monstered the opposition there.

JRM is a seriously clever bloke, with a mind like a rapier. He’s exactly the kind of person we need negotiating Brexit.

The jury is somewhat out on whether he’d be a good pm...

 

[Bromley boy]

Jeremy draws record crowds at the Durham Miners Gala.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...elps-draw-record-crowds-to-durham-miners-gala

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/huge-turnout-durham-miners-gala-12916003

Surveys shows that age and education are more important than class, with young and educated people more likely to vote for Labour than for the dinosaurs in the Conservatives, who are dying out in ever increasing numbers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...elderly-support-base-pensioners-a7798386.html

The Tories finally ditching the hopeless May and placing the likes of Alexander or Mediocre Jake O'Grease-Smogg, the toff who loves this country so much he moved his business to Ireland, in No 10 will only drive more people into the Labour fold.

I’d value @DarloRich ’s take on this.

As one of the forum’s most bellicose contributors, and proud working class northerner, who believes labour has lost touch.