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Boris Johnson is a liability.

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Bromley boy

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Used to. I've since changed jobs.

And were they serving customers/dealing with clients? As I say I think that is very, very rare indeed.

I can honestly say I wouldn’t personally feel comfortable either working or dealing with people in any capacity if I couldn’t see their faces.

It’s the cornerstone of human interaction.
 
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Bromley boy

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I used to work for a company in Birmingham where their call centre was located back in 2001 and there was at least half a dozen women (I assume) wearing full face niqabs, and as I mentioned before in this thread their company ID card photos were of them wearing the full face niqab which made them very much non-identifable from each other

I must have missed that. Ridiculous - not to mention a security risk!

From a google search it is banned in many NHS practices when dealing with patients, and for very good reason.
 

EM2

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I can honestly say I wouldn’t personally feel comfortable either working or dealing with people in any capacity if I couldn’t see their faces.
I really don't find it a problem. I will admit that my interactions are usually very short, but they ask me a question, I answer it, they thank me and off they go.
 

Mutant Lemming

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Like everyone else that lives here, they should be free to do whatever is not illegal.

not quite the case though is it... try walking the streets with a swastika armband - and if you get attacked it will be 'your own fault' but wear something that is equally related to an outright fascist ideology (such as a burka etc) and "we" are expected to accept it.
Can't believe how idiotic the 'establishment' is at demonising anyone who does not accept their ludicrous stance on all this. Anyone pushing this is in danger of creating the one great thing that this country does NOT share with it's EU big brothers - a fully flourishing fascist party in it's parliament. The more this nonsense is pursued the further to the right many people will end up being driven.
 

AM9

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not quite the case though is it... try walking the streets with a swastika armband - and if you get attacked it will be 'your own fault' but wear something that is equally related to an outright fascist ideology (such as a burka etc) and "we" are expected to accept it. ...
Well that's not really a valid comparison. Try walking along the street with the IS emblem on a tea shirt (in black and white of course) is a relevant comparison. A burqa is just an item of clothing, and has no political or military inference. If you want to read some meaning into it, that's your perogative, but outside of any security/identity considerations, the problem is all yours and others' with similar issues.
 

fowler9

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not quite the case though is it... try walking the streets with a swastika armband - and if you get attacked it will be 'your own fault' but wear something that is equally related to an outright fascist ideology (such as a burka etc) and "we" are expected to accept it.
Can't believe how idiotic the 'establishment' is at demonising anyone who does not accept their ludicrous stance on all this. Anyone pushing this is in danger of creating the one great thing that this country does NOT share with it's EU big brothers - a fully flourishing fascist party in it's parliament. The more this nonsense is pursued the further to the right many people will end up being driven.
Wow there. The burqa is cultural and pre dates Islam. The Swastika also pre dates the Nazi Party. Swastika arm bands though very much have a place in a nasty part of history. I think you are pushing it a bit to say wearing a Burqa and wearing a Swastika arm band are the same.
 
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Bromley boy

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Indeed, it likely is. But your statement was that full face coverings prevent participation in society, which isn't quite the same as making it difficult.

My bad, I should have said prevents meaningful participation. Is that any better?

I can’t understsnd why you seem so keen to defend it as “freedom of choice” when it represents anything but.

A burqa is just an item of clothing, and has no political or military inference. If you want to read some meaning into it, that's your perogative,

Just like the tee-shirt I’m wearing now, then? I think not. Clothing can and does have meaning.

I don’t agree with the comparison to a swastika, but a burqa/niqab says something very specific, and distinctly unpleasant, about how the culture concerned views/treats women.

the problem is all yours and others' with similar issues.

And the problem of women forced to wear it under Isis rule who burned theirs when liberated. And still the problem of women forced to wear it elsewhere in the world.

I’m sure being told it’s “just an item of clothing” by a male train enthusiast from the UK would be interesting news to them.
 
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mmh

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Wow there. The burqa is cultural and pre dates Islam.

Good luck trying to get any consensus from religious types on who was first. And yes, I know the theory that they're all descended from the same root. Double good luck putting that view to someone, or actually the male with her, in a burqa.

The Swastika also pre dates the Nazi Party. Swastika arm bands though very much have a place in a nasty part of history. I think you are pushing it a bit to say wearing a Burqa and wearing a Swastika arm band are the same.

Yes, we all know the swastika is an ancient design that was subjugated by the Nazis. I've never seen anyone display one in the west, neither have you, because it's completely unacceptable in western culture because of that. Likewise women covering their faces should be unacceptable in the west.
 

najaB

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I can’t understsnd why you seem so keen to defend it as “freedom of choice” when it represents anything but.
Perhaps that well worn Evelyn Beatrice Hall quote: "I disagree with everything you said, but will defend to my death your right to say it."

I don't agree with the people (mainly men) who force women to wear full veils. But equally I can't support anyone who says that people can't wear them. People can wear whatever they want as long as it doesn't cause harm or encite hateful action.

As I have said numerous times, but I'll say again: bans do more harm than good.

The civil society is best served by encouraging and supporting those women who are being forced to wear veils in standing up and saying 'No'. A ban doesn't give them a voice, it just means that their oppressors will find other ways to control their lives - rather than being out on the street in niquabs, they won't be let out of the house at all.
 

mmh

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Perhaps that well worn Evelyn Beatrice Hall quote: "I disagree with everything you said, but will defend to my death your right to say it."

I don't agree with the people (mainly men) who force women to wear full veils. But equally I can't support anyone who says that people can't wear them. People can wear whatever they want as long as it doesn't cause harm or encite hateful action.

As I have said numerous times, but I'll say again: bans do more harm than good.

In general I'd agree, but it seems mealy-mouthed to me to say you don't agree with women being forced to do somthing, but oh on the other hand let's not actually say anything about it.

The civil society is best served by encouraging and supporting those women who are being forced to wear veils in standing up and saying 'No'. A ban doesn't give them a voice, it just means that their oppressors will find other ways to control their lives - rather than being out on the street in niquabs, they won't be let out of the house at all.

How can this encouragement work though? If a woman's being forced to she has no choice and she likely won't even know you care anyway. The people to "encourage" are the men. Ridicule them and their ridiculous "customs", make it socially unacceptable.
 

najaB

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In general I'd agree, but it seems mealy-mouthed to me to say you don't agree with women being forced to do somthing, but oh on the other hand let's not actually say anything about it.
I've never once said not to say anything about it. By all means, shine a light on it but not in an overly-critical way - some of the opinions posted on this thread are fuel for the 'They hate Muslims' mantra spouted by the more radical clerics and imans.
Ridicule them and their ridiculous "customs", make it socially unacceptable.
Ridicule has the possibility of backfiring. I agree that the men's attitude had to change, but the best way to do that is by letting the women know that they don't have to put up with it, and that the system will support them if they raise complaints against their spouses.
 

Bromley boy

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Perhaps that well worn Evelyn Beatrice Hall quote: "I disagree with everything you said, but will defend to my death your right to say it."

That quote represents a commendable and spirited defence of freedom of expression (something we increasingly lack in the U.K.).

As such, surely it also contradicts a salafist culture which dresses women in niqab/burqa, tells them its sinful to disobey their husbands, sinful to decline sex unless they’re menstruating, yet hubby can have multiple wives etc.?

Since the last three practices listed above are illegal in the U.K. (quite rightly, as I’m sure you and I both agree) why shouldn’t the first be?

I realise you’re coming at this from a position of tolerance. Sadly it seems your tolerance is leading you to defend a practice that is profoundly patriarchal and illiberal.

I don't agree with the people (mainly men) who force women to wear full veils. But equally I can't support anyone who says that people can't wear them. People can wear whatever they want as long as it doesn't cause harm or encite hateful action.

But those positions aren’t equal: people (mainly men) requiring women to wear these garments for “religious” reasons are in no way equivalent to (liberal) people arguing for them to be banned.

I would also suggest these garments themselves cause harm: how can it not be harmful for women to be masked from the world and denied human interaction in the society they live in?

As I have said numerous times, but I'll say again: bans do more harm than good.

Yet these garments have been banned in several majority countries. Why? Because they are evidence of conservatism/extremism.

The civil society is best served by encouraging and supporting those women who are being forced to wear veils in standing up and saying 'No'. A ban doesn't give them a voice, it just means that their oppressors will find other ways to control their lives - rather than being out on the street in niquabs, they won't be let out of the house at all.

And yet we can’t stand up and say no, can we!? Criticism of these practices is no longer permissible in PC 2018 U.K. Anyone attempting it is accused of racism and shut down. Witness the furore over BoJo’s statements (ironically he was actually arguing against a ban).

We need to make a robust statement in this country about the views and practices we find acceptable, as a liberal society. Banning the veil would be a step towards that in my view.
 
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Bromley boy

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I've never once said not to say anything about it. By all means, shine a light on it but not in an overly-critical way

No! Let’s not just “shine a light on it”. That’s an absolute cop out!

Which other disgusting, patriarchal cultural practices do you want us to accept in the U.K. and merely “shine a light on, but not in an overly critical way”:

Sharia courts?
Polygamy?
Marriage of prepubescent women?
Execution of homosexuals?

All of the above come from precisely the same slafist/wahhabist stable as the niqab/burqa.

Robust liberalism needs to be enforced, in case we lose it.

“Shining a light” simply isn’t good enough, I’m afraid, if you want to defend it...
 
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EM2

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outright fascist ideology
tenor.gif

(GIF from the film The Princess Bride. Inigo Montoya says 'You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.')
 
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najaB

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Which other disgusting, patriarchal cultural practices do you want us to accept in the U.K. and merely “shine a light on, but not in an overly critical way”
It's impossible to impose cultural change from without, the impetus for change can only come from within.

Okay, let's assume that all women wearing full veils are being forced to wear them by controlling husbands, who won't let them go outside without wearing one. What happens if we ban them? You get to feel all great that you've championed British values and they still have controlling husbands who now don't let them go out at all.

#GoodJob! :rolleyes:
 

Bromley boy

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It's impossible to impose cultural change from without, the impetus for change can only come from within.

Okay, let's assume that all women wearing full veils are being forced to wear them by controlling husbands, who won't let them go outside without wearing one. What happens if we ban them? You get to feel all great that you've championed British values and they still have controlling husbands who now don't let them go out at all.

#GoodJob! :rolleyes:

There’s nothing we can do about that, other than putting strategies in place so that women in that situation can escape if they choose to. Once we’ve done that we’ve done all we can.

All the more reason why we need an immigration system which ensures that new arrivals can, as a minimum, speak English (so that said services can be accessed) and be willing to assimilate to our cultural values.
 
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mmh

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It's impossible to impose cultural change from without, the impetus for change can only come from within.

Well that's not true. In the past this conversation wouldn't be happening, and nothing that's been said would be controversial. That change didn't come from within.
 

furnessvale

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Yes, we all know the swastika is an ancient design that was subjugated by the Nazis. I've never seen anyone display one in the west, neither have you, because it's completely unacceptable in western culture because of that. Likewise women covering their faces should be unacceptable in the west.
My old church in Preston has a complete course of brick around the entire building with moulded in swastikas.

The swastika is of course an old Christian symbol (but with the arms going the other way).
 

najaB

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Well that's not true. In the past this conversation wouldn't be happening, and nothing that's been said would be controversial. That change didn't come from within.
Of course it came from within.
 

Bromley boy

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My old church in Preston has a complete course of brick around the entire building with moulded in swastikas.

The swastika is of course an old Christian symbol (but with the arms going the other way).

Also on view in the mosaics of a Roman villa I have visited (Lullingstone) - it’s an ancient symbol for prosperity and good fortune I believe (I think the Nazi version was reversed).

EDIT: Lullingstone also has a fine example of a ghost station, which was built but never actually used, for those of that persuasion!
 

birchesgreen

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The swastika is one of the, if not the, oldest symbols in human mythology. The earliest found predate "civilisation" by millennia.
 

bnm

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Satire it may be, but it's an effective rebuttal to all those who've made similar arguments in this thread for banning the wearing of religious face coverings.

From NewsThump:

Schrodinger’s Burkha represses women while also empowering them to be a volatile security risk

The burkha represses women but also increases the likelihood of them posing a risk to security, somehow, according to reports this morning.

Allegedly intelligent people have argued that the burkha is intended to keep women downtrodden, to keep them quiet and passive, to keep them from misbehaving in the presence of their male masters.

The same people are also arguing that the same burkha that keeps women passively ‘in line’ also increases the odds that someone wearing one will commit a crime.

“It’s a sign they are being repressed, which means we should definitely be afraid of them,” confirmed allegedly intelligent person, Simon Williams.

“If I know one thing about bank robbers – and I don’t by the way – it’s that they are typically mousey and shy after decades of Muslim male oppression.

“We must ban the burkha to allow these women to think for themselves, to allow them to feel brave and courageous, to allow them the kind of independent, out-of-the-box thinking typical of someone who would come up with an ingenious plan…to…rob…rob a bank…

“…wait a minute…”

Meanwhile, others have suggested the only way to fight against women being told what to wear, is to fight against what women are allowed to wear.

Man Chester Matthews told us, “I find it disgusting that in some cultures a man can tell a woman what they have to wear. It’s abhorrent.

“They should come and live here, in an open society like ours, where men are currently are currently obsessed with telling women what they aren’t allowed to wear.

“It’s very different. Shut up, yes it is.”
http://newsthump.com/2018/08/17/sch...powering-them-to-be-a-volatile-security-risk/
 

furnessvale

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Satire it may be, but it's an effective rebuttal to all those who've made similar arguments in this thread for banning the wearing of religious face coverings.

From NewsThump:


http://newsthump.com/2018/08/17/sch...powering-them-to-be-a-volatile-security-risk/
This article, or at least as much of it as I could read before some sort of paywall appeared, makes a fatal error in its assumptions.

Does anyone believe that the repressed female and the bank robber are one and the same person?
 

EM2

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If the woman I saw wearing a niqab in Lakeside the other day was oppressed, she was doing a bloody good job of disguising it. The husband was weighed down with bags and he was the one three yards behind!
 

bnm

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This article, or at least as much of it as I could read before some sort of paywall appeared, makes a fatal error in its assumptions.

I quoted the article in full. NewsThump doesn't have a pay wall. It is also satire.
 

furnessvale

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I quoted the article in full. NewsThump doesn't have a pay wall. It is also satire.
Satire that totally misses its target so it does not "form an effective rebuttal etc."

And your response to my second sentence (which was snipped) is..........?
 

mmh

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If the woman I saw wearing a niqab in Lakeside the other day was oppressed, she was doing a bloody good job of disguising it. The husband was weighed down with bags and he was the one three yards behind!

An example of patriarchal sexism then. The strong male not allowing the female to do the man's job.

See how easy whataboutery is?
 

bnm

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And your response to my second sentence (which was snipped) is..........?

... it was satire. Skewering the opinions of others with humour is as effective as a formal rebuttal. Other than that I chose whether a formal response is warranted. I certainly don't when one is demanded.

And I can't legislate for the humourless.
 
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