Boris and the Bakerloo Line

[telstarbox]

Consultation opens on 29 September.

http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/view/7837

The Mayor of London has urged south-east London boroughs to "come to the party" with their ideas for a Bakerloo line extension with a public consultation starting in just a few weeks.



"We're beginning consultation very soon on extending the Bakerloo line beyond Elephant & Castle," Boris Johnson told the London Assembly on Wednesday.

"Where it goes is very much a matter for that consultation.

"We are looking for support from the boroughs that it might arrive in.

"We're looking for interest, we're looking to hear about development potential, about funding packages we can put together with business to support a scheme that has a lot of government interest .

"We really need the boroughs to come to the party and say how they will help us to finance it."

 

[Busaholic]

Only in dreams would I expect to see 27 tph to Catford Bridge and 16 tph to Hayes, but there are the figures in black and white plus the possibility of Beckenham Junction to Grove Park via Bromley (the route of the 126 bus of my youth). It only needs Bromley Council to play ball, and not hardball either. What are the chances of that? Better, I guess, than when Bromley Council took GLC to court over 'Fares Fair', aided and abetted by Lord 'ever so 'umble' Denning and his ability to rewrite law at the stroke of a pen.

 

[JaJaWa]

The TfL consulation has now opened: https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/tube/bakerloo-extension

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That's great news that the consultation is open.

A couple of questions for people to discuss....

1. What are people's views on the relative merits of the two routes to Lewisham - via Old Kent Road or via Peckham Rye?
2. If the extension is built as far as Hayes, this will release some more paths on the SouthEastern lines between London Bridge and Lewisham. What do you think the most deserving routes are to be given more trains to fill those paths?

 

[Chris125]

Map

Background to Consultation

Frequently Asked Questions

Chris

 

[hwl]

That's great news that the consultation is open.

A couple of questions for people to discuss....

1. If the extension is built as far as Hayes, this will release some more paths on the SouthEastern lines between London Bridge and Lewisham. What do you think the most deserving routes are to be given more trains to fill those paths?

More stopping services serving as many people as possible in side Zone 6 There is a real danger that the rest of Se London won't see any improvements but it will all go to Kent Services

 

[jopsuk]

I'll predict now: the Bromley extension won't be built. Tunnelling from Beckenham, to what would presumably be a subsurface station in Bromely, is not something I can see working out as being cost effective

 

[Clip]

Does it really need to go out as far as even Lewisham?

But Ill go for the Camberwell direction because it is criminal that it hasnt got anything there(and takes me ages to get there)

 

[Chris125]

Does it really need to go out as far as even Lewisham?

But Ill go for the Camberwell direction because it is criminal that it hasnt got anything there(and takes me ages to get there)

It does if it's to have any meaningful benefit to national rail services, and I'd imagine the relatively low cost of the extension beyond Lewisham also helps the overall business case.

Chris

 

[rebmcr]

It does if it's to have any meaningful benefit to national rail services, and I'd imagine the relatively low cost of the extension beyond Lewisham also helps the overall business case.

Also the Hayes line becoming entirely self-contained and freeing-up London Bridge paths is an enormous bonus over just partially taking-over a different line and still running mainline stock.

 

[Busaholic]

Does it really need to go out as far as even Lewisham?

But Ill go for the Camberwell direction because it is criminal that it hasnt got anything there(and takes me ages to get there)

How long would it take to rebuild Camberwell Station? A lot less long than any Bakerloo extension, at a fraction of the cost, the road name is in place already!It would mean sending more Thameslink services this way, but that should be achievable when the 2000 programme is finally completed. Extending the Charing Cross branch of the Northern Line to Camberwell and Peckham could be on the agenda too if this wretched Battersea proposal was dropped, and Kennington to Camberwell would largely run under a park and thus be less disruptive in building.

 

[LLivery]

Personally I'd rather see the Bakerloo Line terminate in Lewisham than take the Hayes Line. But thats for selfish reasons. The Hayes line has 4-6 trains per hour Mon-Sat and 2tph Sundays. I guess it would be useful for some routes.

The problem with this is both Walworth Road and Old Kent Road needs its traffic sorting out. If this was New York I'd say have two branches - one along Old Kent through New Cross to Lewisham. And have the other though Walworth and Camberwell then to Loughborough Jun, Brixton and along the A23 through Streatham, Norbury and to Croydon. But I don't think that would work in London, then again maybe it would.

As for Hayes, I just don't see it having a high enough usage to out weigh the costs now days. TfL won't just be able to connect the track at Ladywell. Like from Queen's Park to Harrow the platforms are too high and I doubt TfL would get away with a totally inaccessible and dangerous platform to train, so track would have to be raised, costing loads.

And for Bromley - that is just a non starter. Firstly Beckenham to Bromley is quite a hill to build an Underground line through. Secondly it would just duplicate the Chatham Main and not be used that well. People from Central London will rather the Express trains from London Vic or the Thameslink service. While people in Lewisham/Catford would rather the reasonably quick 208 or 320 bus down Bromley road.

 

[Chris125]

As for Hayes, I just don't see it having a high enough usage to out weigh the costs now days. TfL won't just be able to connect the track at Ladywell. Like from Queen's Park to Harrow the platforms are too high and I doubt TfL would get away with a totally inaccessible and dangerous platform to train, so track would have to be raised, costing loads.

The track and signalling would all need replacing anyway, making the cost of altering the track/platform height at the same time pretty insignificant - the cost should be easily justified by the extra paths freed up into London Bridge for other services.

Chris

 

[Busaholic]

Personally I'd rather see the Bakerloo Line terminate in Lewisham than take the Hayes Line. But thats for selfish reasons. The Hayes line has 4-6 trains per hour Mon-Sat and 2tph Sundays. I guess it would be useful for some routes.

The problem with this is both Walworth Road and Old Kent Road needs its traffic sorting out. If this was New York I'd say have two branches - one along Old Kent through New Cross to Lewisham. And have the other though Walworth and Camberwell then to Loughborough Jun, Brixton and along the A23 through Streatham, Norbury and to Croydon. But I don't think that would work in London, then again maybe it would.

As for Hayes, I just don't see it having a high enough usage to out weigh the costs now days. TfL won't just be able to connect the track at Ladywell. Like from Queen's Park to Harrow the platforms are too high and I doubt TfL would get away with a totally inaccessible and dangerous platform to train, so track would have to be raised, costing loads.

And for Bromley - that is just a non starter. Firstly Beckenham to Bromley is quite a hill to build an Underground line through. Secondly it would just duplicate the Chatham Main and not be used that well. People from Central London will rather the Express trains from London Vic or the Thameslink service. While people in Lewisham/Catford would rather the reasonably quick 208 or 320 bus down Bromley road.

Although I'd love to see it happen, I agree that Beckenham to Bromley is almost certainly a non-starter. Much more likely to see an Overground-type situation with 4tph going into the bay platform at Beckenham Junction, like at New Cross; the tph to Hayes also seem unrealistic unless there are wholesale plans to build on all the local commons! Think 4 to 6 tph will get lost in the wash somewhere.

 

[JamesRowden]

Although I'd love to see it happen, I agree that Beckenham to Bromley is almost certainly a non-starter. Much more likely to see an Overground-type situation with 4tph going into the bay platform at Beckenham Junction, like at New Cross; the tph to Hayes also seem unrealistic unless there are wholesale plans to build on all the local commons! Think 4 to 6 tph will get lost in the wash somewhere.

There's presently 12tph on the District Line to Upminster and if I have interpreted the upgrade plans correctly: it will be 16tph to Upminster. Why would Hayes be any different (apart from the fact that national rail services at Upminster should mean that perhaps it wouldn't need as frequent a service as Hayes)?

 

[Chris125]

Although I'd love to see it happen, I agree that Beckenham to Bromley is almost certainly a non-starter. Much more likely to see an Overground-type situation with 4tph going into the bay platform at Beckenham Junction, like at New Cross; the tph to Hayes also seem unrealistic unless there are wholesale plans to build on all the local commons! Think 4 to 6 tph will get lost in the wash somewhere.

If nothing else I imagine the higher tph would help compensate for the reduced seating capacity of a tube train - according to the 2050 Infrastructure Plan released recently there would be "a peak service frequency of 27tph as far as Catford Bridge, with 15tph to Hayes and 6tph to Beckenham Junction"

Chris

 

[LLivery]

There's presently 12tph on the District Line to Upminster and if I have interpreted the upgrade plans correctly: it will be 16tph to Upminster. Why would Hayes be any different (apart from the fact that national rail services at Upminster should mean that perhaps it wouldn't need as frequent a service as Hayes)?

Upminster station also serves Cranham, provides an interchange for intermediate tube stations for Basildon, Lakeside, Southend etc as well as the Romford-Upmister Line. Hayes is nothing like that. Its a small, leafy, suburban area with farmland and woods - Rickmansworth or Northwood is more like Hayes than Upminster! West Wickham is reasonably busy but no Dagenham, Hornchurch or Barking, nor is Eden Park, Elmers End, New Beckenham or Lower Sydenham.

Just look how empty Bakerloo Line trains are north of Queens Park outside the peaks and that is 6tph! The Hayes Line is unique and important but 16tph is just ridiculous. Only Catford Bridge could reasonably warrant that.
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The track and signalling would all need replacing anyway, making the cost of altering the track/platform height at the same time pretty insignificant - the cost should be easily justified by the extra paths freed up into London Bridge for other services.

Chris

If your saying that all that money on re-signalling, track heights and additional trains could be justified for just 4-6 train paths through Lewisham junction then I struggle to comprehend that idea. Please correct me if I misunderstood

 

[nw1]

Only in dreams would I expect to see 27 tph to Catford Bridge and 16 tph to Hayes, but there are the figures in black and white plus the possibility of Beckenham Junction to Grove Park via Bromley (the route of the 126 bus of my youth). It only needs Bromley Council to play ball, and not hardball either. What are the chances of that? Better, I guess, than when Bromley Council took GLC to court over 'Fares Fair', aided and abetted by Lord 'ever so 'umble' Denning and his ability to rewrite law at the stroke of a pen.

Before my time as a public transport user... but can't believe how the nasty, mean-minded Bromley Council scuppered funding Fares Fare via a 5% increase in rates. That would be the difference (in today's money) of council tax rising from say £71 to £75 a month... not a lot. Really makes me mad, this sort of Tory nonsense, aptly illustrated by the David n' George show's latest BS.

 

[Busaholic]

Upminster station also serves Cranham, provides an interchange for intermediate tube stations for Basildon, Lakeside, Southend etc as well as the Romford-Upmister Line. Hayes is nothing like that. Its a small, leafy, suburban area with farmland and woods - Rickmansworth or Northwood is more like Hayes than Upminster! West Wickham is reasonably busy but no Dagenham, Hornchurch or Barking, nor is Eden Park, Elmers End, New Beckenham or Lower Sydenham.

Just look how empty Bakerloo Line trains are north of Queens Park outside the peaks and that is 6tph! The Hayes Line is unique and important but 16tph is just ridiculous. Only Catford Bridge could reasonably warrant that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If your saying that all that money on re-signalling, track heights and additional trains could be justified for just 4-6 train paths through Lewisham junction then I struggle to comprehend that idea. Please correct me if I misunderstood

The only justification I can see for anything like 16 tph to Hayes would be if Tramlink were extended from New Addington into Hayes (the first part of that would be quite feasible and, in tramway terms, not too costly) and some commuters persuaded to use Hayes rather than the Croydon stations. Can't see they'd get more than a handful to abandon East Croydon, but maybe more from West Croydon? The shoppers would still want Croydon though, with all due respect to Catford and Lewisham!

 

[tranzitjim]

I would support the whole lot being done.

Do both routes out of Elephant and Castle?

First stage must be to reach Camberwell, given it is a long time pledge to happen one day, kind of makes that bit well overdue in my view.

 

[Busaholic]

I would support the whole lot being done.

Do both routes out of Elephant and Castle?

First stage must be to reach Camberwell, given it is a long time pledge to happen one day, kind of makes that bit well overdue in my view.

Doing both routes doesn't seem to be on the table. Of course, a route via Camberwell on to Peckham doesn't have to end at the Rye, could then run to New Cross (not Gate) and then as per proposals. Still think the Camberwell bit would be much better linked to a Northern Line extension from Kennington. The New Cross to Kennington corridor via Peckham and Camberwell would not parallel any heavy rail routes with the possibility of taking quite a lot of cars off the road and re-using some of the buses saved on other pressing local needs.

 

[JamesRowden]

The only justification I can see for anything like 16 tph to Hayes would be if Tramlink were extended from New Addington into Hayes (the first part of that would be quite feasible and, in tramway terms, not too costly) and some commuters persuaded to use Hayes rather than the Croydon stations. Can't see they'd get more than a handful to abandon East Croydon, but maybe more from West Croydon? The shoppers would still want Croydon though, with all due respect to Catford and Lewisham!

What if the local authorities state that they will only support the project if: a substaintially better service will operate along the line to Hayes considering the huge disruption that the conversion will require.

 

[rebmcr]

16tph is necessary not just to serve the station, but also because you have to terminate the core tph somewhere, so if it's no bother to terminate it at Hayes then why not?

 

[alwaystouchout]

Is there no chance of simply re-opening Camberwell and Walworth stations on the existing NR line? Finance or paths I guess..?

 

[Busaholic]

16tph is necessary not just to serve the station, but also because you have to terminate the core tph somewhere, so if it's no bother to terminate it at Hayes then why not?

Others on this thread will know the cost of a new Underground train and how many would be saved if,say, only 9 or 10 ph operated to Hayes (plus 4 or 5 to Beckenham Junc). There is no point in going from famine to feast: invest the money saved elsewhere, either in new turnback facilities or on Bakerloo connections to other lines. The idea of Hayes being some sort of Stratford or Morden is preposterous and Eden Park when I visited it six months ago was much the same sleepy station as I remember from my school sportsdays, when we had to wait up to half an hour for a train!

 

[robertclark125]

Could a possible solution be to have two services, if the extension goeas ahead; Queens Park to Hayes, and Harrow and Wealdstone to Peckham? That's assuming things get built.

 

[Nym]

I love the way that no-one has mentioned or thought of the extra stabling facilities that would be needed for this.

Also, if you want to terminate some early, one would need to pick somewhere good to do it.

Waterloo is probably out, I doubt the NTfL will fit in London Road. So this vastly expanded fleet will need a depot somewhere, any space on the southern extension for this?

 

[robertclark125]

In the consultation, I've also suggested that the service could be run as Harrow on the Hill - Beckenham, and Willesden Junction - Hayes. The thing is, that would require a third platform at Willesden Junction, LONG ENOUGH to take seven car trains. So, the bay platform would have to be extended somehow.

Another advantage of doing this is it does away with trains terminating at Queens park.

Regards a depot at the southern end, what's wrong with a site at, say New Cross Gate, or Lewisham, if space exists somewhere.

 

[bangor-toad]

Waterloo is probably out, I doubt the NTfL will fit in London Road. So this vastly expanded fleet will need a depot somewhere, any space on the southern extension for this?

What about the land between Catford & Catford Bridge stations? Google Maps shows it to be wasteland. There don't seem to be too many houses overlooking the site.

Any other site would seem to require either on playing fields, parks or demolishing houses.

Mr Toad

 

[Busaholic]

What about the land between Catford & Catford Bridge stations? Google Maps shows it to be wasteland. There don't seem to be too many houses overlooking the site.

Any other site would seem to require either on playing fields, parks or demolishing houses.

Mr Toad

I'm sure my alma mater, St Dunstan's College, would be prepared to relocate if the price was right! Could I be first in line with the demolition ball?