Hi, I recently sat an assessment with Northern Rail. I passed the written tests and the dots but only got a borderline pass on the 2nd part of the fast reaction test which Northern don't accept. Because of this I was unable to complete the assessment so did not do the CB Interview. As this was my second attempt at the tests (failed it first time on the same thing!!) I am not sure where to go from here. Should I give up on the whole train driving idea or attempt the tests again if that's allowed? The assessor mentioned that some TOC's do accept borderline passes but did not mention which ones, I know TPE don't but what about the freight companys? Any help or advice would be most appreciated.
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Borderline Pass - Advice needed.
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Hi due to the massive competition for trainee driving jobs a lot of TOC's won't accept borderline passes as the standards are so high! Im pretty sure to be a freight driver you have to be a qualified driver with a minimum of 2 years experience. Because you haven't "failed" the OPC tests I think you can have another go after 6 months but not sure on that. Hopefully someone else will know the answer to that.
Jimmy McNulty
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If you are failing (or narrowly passing) on the Reactions test does that indicate that maybe you aren't cut out for a Driving job? Probably better to realise that now than once you are in the job.
Lanc688
Member
Jaffa,
If you haven't yet used up all your chances and given that your score at least improved this time, I would strongly suggest that you don't give up just yet.
Do not be disheartened by those who suggest that you may not be cut out for it, as many of those on this board have been in similar situations and passed on the second attempt to the standard required.
If it was only reactions that are below the standard, I would suggest that reactions and even coordination CAN be improved with practice and subjecting yourself to experiences that involve their use.
Don't give up just yet.
Regards
Lanc
I'd be playing computer games to increase my reaction speed and also making sure that I'm getting enough sleep and enough exercise.
Also, have you thought about diet, for example, sugars and high glycemic foods slow you down, but protein and caffeine speed up your reaction time. So don't drink sugary fizzy drinks but do have a coffee with no sugar, and maybe some dried apricots before you take the test.
If you are getting a borderline pass I assume you'll only need a small improvement to pass to the satisfaction of Northern Rail and hopefully doing things that help increase reaction speed will produce the desired result......unless of course you've already been doing that to achieve the borderline pass. I'd test myself with and without the coffee/protein if I was able, to see what difference they actually made.
Also, have you thought about diet, for example, sugars and high glycemic foods slow you down, but protein and caffeine speed up your reaction time. So don't drink sugary fizzy drinks but do have a coffee with no sugar, and maybe some dried apricots before you take the test.
If you are getting a borderline pass I assume you'll only need a small improvement to pass to the satisfaction of Northern Rail and hopefully doing things that help increase reaction speed will produce the desired result......unless of course you've already been doing that to achieve the borderline pass. I'd test myself with and without the coffee/protein if I was able, to see what difference they actually made.
Many thanks for all the advice. I am hoping to have a third and final crack at it in 6 months. It seems that as long as you get at least a borderline pass and don't actually fail you are ok to retake the test. I am not 100% sure of this so if I'm wrong please let me know. I will hopefully do it at DB Schenker, practice harder, get a good nights sleep, take some exercise, watch my diet and maybe, just maybe I will pass the bloody thing once and for all! 
Sorry mate but it two fails and that's all you get. If on the database it shows two fails then I'm afraid to say the reality is you won't be able to get a job driving unless they change the process in the future. Not a great thing to gear but better to be honest then get your hopes up. If they didnt let you do the structured interview then it's a fail I think. All depends what it's shows on the database but they wouldn't stop you doing the interview if you had passed the rest as obviously other tocs might have a different approach. Best way is to contact them and find out for certain.
Many thanks for all the advice. I am hoping to have a third and final crack at it in 6 months. It seems that as long as you get at least a borderline pass and don't actually fail you are ok to retake the test. I am not 100% sure of this so if I'm wrong please let me know. I will hopefully do it at DB Schenker, practice harder, get a good nights sleep, take some exercise, watch my diet and maybe, just maybe I will pass the bloody thing once and for all!
I'm hoping to make it to the assessment stage too, so I can't give you any specific advice. What I can say is, try not to pay attention to comments like "you might not be cut out for the job" as you only have to read a few threads to realise people practice hours and hours to improve their reaction time - some still narrowly pass. Those people want you to pack it in so there is less competition for them - so I say if there is a way chin up and have another bash!
The job doesn't require you to react in under a second to anything, there is no evidence for needing to react at a ridiculously fast pace.
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the op said they had a borderline pass, so they haven't technically failed the assessments. Just haven't got a good enough score yet as the competition is so fierce.
notadriver
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All that effort to drive a Pacer all day! No thanks 
Lanc688
Member
I was under the impression that one of the results was borderline. If this is the case then no, it isn't two fails as a borderline pass is still a 'pass' within the industry standard.
Go for it again...make sure you are massively well prepared and hone your reactions and coordination.
Lanc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm hoping to make it to the assessment stage too, so I can't give you any specific advice. What I can say is, try not to pay attention to comments like "you might not be cut out for the job" as you only have to read a few threads to realise people practice hours and hours to improve their reaction time - some still narrowly pass. Those people want you to pack it in so there is less competition for them - so I say if there is a way chin up and have another bash!
The job doesn't require you to react in under a second to anything, there is no evidence for needing to react at a ridiculously fast pace.
Just for your info....this link details the reasons why the TOCs consider a better pass as useful.
http://www.theopc.co.uk/content.jsp?c=ValidIssue04
Another reason they will do this is because with the applicant numbers, they can afford to 'skim the cream' and I guess that the DTG is another useful tool for doing so.
Lanc
I read the link before and thoroughly understand the reasoning behind it, however, my point is that you can improve your reaction time to meet the standards like most people do before the tests.
Lanc688
Member
Agreed, I did that very thing myself, however by virtue of the fact that you work hard to improve your coordination is a good thing in my eyes, as long as you maintain a good level of coordination from that point, which is no doubt possible.
If we were all born with naturally good reactions and coordination I'd be happy to let the kids drive themselves to school (ok....tongue in cheek humour)
Not having a go....I really do agree with what you say. Back to the main point though....I see absolutely no reason why Jaffa shouldn't have another go and I'm sure we both think the same.
Lanc
Eduardo
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Lanc is spot on.
A borderline pass is a just that. A pass to the industry standard.
If you have a pass to this level then your two lives are still intact and you may take another two goes at the tests in the future.
I spoke to the OPC at some length recently after I took the tests.
The only minus is that the TOC you apply for class the borderline pass as a 'fail' by their standards (even though its not) and you may only go for one more sitting. This is why they choose the high level passes.
The main thing is, nationally you still have your lives intact.
If you have another borderline pass with the same TOC then you'd probably have to reapply to another TOC in the future.
Clear as mud?
A borderline pass is a just that. A pass to the industry standard.
If you have a pass to this level then your two lives are still intact and you may take another two goes at the tests in the future.
I spoke to the OPC at some length recently after I took the tests.
The only minus is that the TOC you apply for class the borderline pass as a 'fail' by their standards (even though its not) and you may only go for one more sitting. This is why they choose the high level passes.
The main thing is, nationally you still have your lives intact.
If you have another borderline pass with the same TOC then you'd probably have to reapply to another TOC in the future.
Clear as mud?
it all depends how it is recorded on the central database, now by what the OP states about the borderline pass it should/probably will/could be* be recorded as an incomplete test so he can have another go, but if its recorded as a fail then that is your 2 goes used up.
You need to get hold of Northern to see what they have recorded it as.
Oh the tests are nothing to do with train driving and everything to do with your ability to assimilate and understand huge amounts of information which is why TOCs are not keen on borderline passes. You will probably struggle on the rules and could possible hold the whole class back.
* delete as applicable.
You need to get hold of Northern to see what they have recorded it as.
Oh the tests are nothing to do with train driving and everything to do with your ability to assimilate and understand huge amounts of information which is why TOCs are not keen on borderline passes. You will probably struggle on the rules and could possible hold the whole class back.
* delete as applicable.
As far as I can see you haven't failed the tests. You've passed them - twice (albeit not all of them - but you haven't actually failed any). I guess it'll come down to how much you want the job and whether you can improve your scores or maybe work for another TOC in another part of the country where they're not so choosey about the pass grade?
I think one of the regular posters on here (Beveridges, possibly?) has sat and passed the pyschometric tests several times. There is no limit to how many times you can pass it - whether it be a low pass or high pass, it's still a pass. If you improve on it you may be fine anyway.
Plenty of the drivers I work with say there's no way they would pass the psychometric tests if they had to take them when they started in the grade. While I agree that these tests have been chosen by the industry as a good insight to an applicants ability, I don't buy that anyone who scored a low pass would not be able to do the job ever!
Good luck!
Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to offer advice & guidance. When the OPC assessor called me in to tell me how I had done she told me I got a borderline pass in the DTG which seems to indicate that I did not fail. I have always wanted to drive trains so I owe it to myself to give it one last try. I agree that the ability to react in superfast time is not a requirement of train driving nor is being good at interviews an indicator of wether or not you can hold it together when your 142 fails on the last Huddersfield on a saturday night and the train is packed with late-night revellers who are starting to blame you for being stuck in the middle of nowhere! If the dots test really was a good measure of someones ability to concentrate then why is it I keep hearing & reading about SPAD's were the driver got distracted thinking about what he was having for his tea and forgot that the last signal he passed was a single yellow? The truth is we are all human & we all lose concentration sometimes for all sorts of reasons, but as things stand if me & and say Lanc went up against each other in the DTG test and I made 2 mistakes but lanc made 3 I would get the job and he would not even though he could turn out a far better train driver than me if given the chance.
Lanc688
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slipperytrack
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Well this post makes me feel a whole lot better as I too have just received a borderline pass today for the 2nd part of the reactions test. The lady told me I'd met the national standards but didn't quite make Northerns standards. What really peed me of was the fact i'd done very well in all the other tests, she said easily meeting Northern's standards and the very last test I did I border lined. She did say that when the computer was controlling the pace I did well, I just seemed to slow down when i controlled the pace - lesson learnt!
Just to clarify, is this not considered a "fail" on the national database? do I still have 2 chances at this test? she said I could apply to other companies who would accept the national standard but I would have to wait and resit the test in 6 months if I wanted to work for Northern. Which I do so I reckon I'll fire up the Xbox and improve my reactions.
Good luck to you Jaffa and everyone else who's trying to get into the rail industry.
Just to clarify, is this not considered a "fail" on the national database? do I still have 2 chances at this test? she said I could apply to other companies who would accept the national standard but I would have to wait and resit the test in 6 months if I wanted to work for Northern. Which I do so I reckon I'll fire up the Xbox and improve my reactions.
Good luck to you Jaffa and everyone else who's trying to get into the rail industry.
Lanc688
Member
From my own experiences so far....I can confirm that you have not "failed", you have met the "Industry Standard" and you will undoubtably have 2 chances left at this test.
I was in the same boat many months ago....I am now expecting to be working for FTPE in 2 months !
To steal a quote from Sir Winston Churchill....."If you find yourself walking through hell....keep going"
Slight overkill I agree, however the message is very pertinent....If you have the determination....You will certainly give yourself the best chance of succeeding !
Regards
Lanc
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Beveridges
Established Member
Some slight misuderstandings in here from reading whats been posted.
Those saying that just because you failed the Reactions means you'll struggle in the role are wrong, the reactions test is well over the top. It is to test if you can react to the AWS Warnings and Vigilance devices in the cab when they go off but you get 3 seconds and you are also faimiliar with the cab layout as well so reacting quick is easy. In the reactions test if I remember right you only get about 1 second to react to everything and you are using an unfamiliar keyboard, so its a thousand times harder. It has nothing to do with measuring learning ability either, if you've managed a borderline pass on reactions you'll be able to react quick enough for the job. The whole point of the reactions test being so intense is to get the numbers down.
If you use the practice program for the reactions test you'll be able to get your speed/accuracy up to the standard for a higher pass. The practice tool has been posted on this forum several times.
A borederline pass does not count as a possible 2 fails, not with any TOC specifically either, you only are banned from applying from any TOC if you have 2 fails.
Another thing people have said is the tests were designed to measure your ability to do the training, rather than ability to do the job. This is not exactly correct as in the structured interview you are asked a question "Describe a time you worked alone for long periods"... Now when in the training do you work alone ? You are either working with other trainees and a trainer or working one to one with an Instructor for the practical handling.
Those saying that just because you failed the Reactions means you'll struggle in the role are wrong, the reactions test is well over the top. It is to test if you can react to the AWS Warnings and Vigilance devices in the cab when they go off but you get 3 seconds and you are also faimiliar with the cab layout as well so reacting quick is easy. In the reactions test if I remember right you only get about 1 second to react to everything and you are using an unfamiliar keyboard, so its a thousand times harder. It has nothing to do with measuring learning ability either, if you've managed a borderline pass on reactions you'll be able to react quick enough for the job. The whole point of the reactions test being so intense is to get the numbers down.
If you use the practice program for the reactions test you'll be able to get your speed/accuracy up to the standard for a higher pass. The practice tool has been posted on this forum several times.
A borederline pass does not count as a possible 2 fails, not with any TOC specifically either, you only are banned from applying from any TOC if you have 2 fails.
Another thing people have said is the tests were designed to measure your ability to do the training, rather than ability to do the job. This is not exactly correct as in the structured interview you are asked a question "Describe a time you worked alone for long periods"... Now when in the training do you work alone ? You are either working with other trainees and a trainer or working one to one with an Instructor for the practical handling.
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