Booking office closures - where next?

[MidnightFlyer]

Over the past week or so we've seen London Midland's somewhat reduced plans for booking office closures granted for Cheddington, Witton, Wythall and Lye. Obviously one of the more controversial parts of the McNulty Report was the recommended closure of hundreds nationwide, however realistically where do members on here expect to go next?

The only plans I can think of proposed by TOCs were for FCC to destaff Drayton Park and SE Martin Mill, both rejected by the DfT. On my travels I see a lot of quiet stations and wonder how long they may have staff left? For example, Carstairs is still manned for 7 hours a day, despite only seeing three trains during this time and none for the last 4 or so hours!

I know this probably isn't the most encouraging thing to discuss on a rail forum, but it is a very real issue nonetheless - where next do people see closures beckoning?
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I'll put this another way - if each TOC were to do as LM have, where else would close? Obviously I expect none for EC and VT etc, but for Northern I expect there'd be a few...

I'll do my list later when I've time.

 

[northwichcat]

Both Northern and TPE have confirmed they will not close any booking offices during the current franchises.

Northern have applied to reduce ticket office hours at some stations - Halifax is one but that will bring it in line with the larger Huddersfield and not put Halifax at a disadvantage compared to similar sized stations.

 

[WillPS]

I think this will be a theme with upcoming regional franchise renewals.

My personal position is that if TOCs want to reduce hours/close ticket offices, they should not be allowed to run Penalty Fares schemes, regardless of TVM availability.

 

[Rich McLean]

Also Stations like Cosford are penalty fare stations, but only have a Permit to travel machine. (which half the time is U/S)

What happens to the poor sod who boards here, and gets met with an RPI on the train, when the PTT machine is U/S, with the RPI or Gaurd anaware?

 

[Cliveblackpool]

With such a complicated fare, routing and validity in place. (hefty penalties if you get it wrong) It is unfair on many people not to have access to a booking office.

 

[knight2004]

I had the issue before of purchasing a ticket in upper hallidird they said just buy on the train the guard said he doesn't sell tickets on the train and if rpi come id risk a fine even though the ticket machine was broke and the permit to travel doesn't work they need to dtandardise things especially in certain areas machines need to be in good working order if there's no office

 

[HST Power]

I should image that sooner of later the ticket office will be gone completely. These days, unless you have very specific journey requirements, you might as well just do it either on the internet or through a machine. The need for human interaction when making purchases is becoming less and less; we've already seen this in supermarkets, with the introduction of dozens of 'self service tills.' It's an easy way for a company to save money. Why pay somebody to sit behind a desk and sell tickets when a computer can do it for you?

 

[northwichcat]

These days, unless you have very specific journey requirements, you might as well just do it either on the internet or through a machine.

If you do have specific journey requirements it could be argued that online is quicker and easier.

One problem with TVMs is they don't sell the full range of tickets and even when they do some types of ticket are hidden, so an irregular user may finish up paying more than they need to.

 

[HST Power]

If you do have specific journey requirements it could be argued that online is quicker and easier.

Exactly.

One problem with TVMs is they don't sell the full range of tickets and even when they do some types of ticket are hidden, so an irregular user may finish up paying more than they need to.

I've had this with FCC when buying at the office! They've misold me Anytime tickets on countless occasions, when Off-Peak tickets would suffice fine.

 

[Greenback]

I should image that sooner of later the ticket office will be gone completely. These days, unless you have very specific journey requirements, you might as well just do it either on the internet or through a machine. The need for human interaction when making purchases is becoming less and less; we've already seen this in supermarkets, with the introduction of dozens of 'self service tills.' It's an easy way for a company to save money. Why pay somebody to sit behind a desk and sell tickets when a computer can do it for you?

As we have seen on other threads, some people are unable to buy tickets online for a number of reasons.

Similarly, some people cannot use TVM's. Also, you need to consider the other things that a ticket office can do, such as sell Ranger and Rover tickets, replace faded season tickets, and so on.

One day, there may be a TVM that can do all these things, as well as sell tickets from any other station, but until then, ticket offices will still have a role to play. And, as I may have mentioned her ebefore, that doesn't mean that the ticket office can't evolve into something that is far more valuable and useful to the local community...

 

[MidnightFlyer]

MerseyRail have proved that ticket offices can double up as other things - the larger stations on their network have 'M to Go' shops in lieu of booking offices, basically a full-blown newsagent that also sells everything a booking office does at the counter. A brilliant idea and one I think should be used elsewhere. Some of the local, independently-run booking offices also do similar, for example Ludlow also sells books and food and drink at their booking office.

 

[trentside]

I believe that EMT are also not planning any ticket office closures during the current franchise. Of the staffed stations in Lincolnshire operated by EMT, I think only Lincoln was suggested as essential by McNulty.

I'd agree with previous comments that many people still prefer the human touch, you also have the issue of online booking engines providing erroneous journey information. I've had two situations like this today, and was able to put people on more suitable trains where they wouldn't be finding themselves purchasing new tickets or an expensive excess. TVMs have their place, but the numerous errors and issues we encounter means they're a long way from perfect - many people also find them intimidating.

Another role the booking office plays in some locations is dealing with Avantix machines, preparing the bags and floats and cashing up once the guards finish their duties. This saves employing a dedicated member of staff to do this - depending on the office there may also be other responsibilities so it's not just paying someone to 'sit behind a desk and sell tickets'.

 

[Greenback]

MerseyRail have proved that ticket offices can double up as other things - the larger stations on their network have 'M to Go' shops in lieu of booking offices, basically a full-blown newsagent that also sells everything a booking office does at the counter. A brilliant idea and one I think should be used elsewhere. Some of the local, independently-run booking offices also do similar, for example Ludlow also sells books and food and drink at their booking office.

Exactly, and I'm sure there are other possibilities for any inventive entrepreneurs out there!

 

[transmanche]

Exactly, and I'm sure there are other possibilities for any inventive entrepreneurs out there!

Where suitably located, TOCs could even bid for Post Office franchises.

 

[northwichcat]

Exactly, and I'm sure there are other possibilities for any inventive entrepreneurs out there!

Agreed. Although, I think Branson's idea of Virgin Money banks at stations might be down the drain now.

 

[reb0118]

I'm all for staffing as many stations as possible but do realise that it may not be economical to do so. The railway should think out the box with regard to the funding of booking offices however.

How about a combined BO and tourist office? I think this would work well in scenic rural areas. Lots of our stations have redundant space available for other uses.

We must also remember the hidden benefits of having a staffed presence. Less vandalism, less feral youth hanging about making the place untidy (as long as the staff have been given the right tools to take ownership of the station and the backing to enforce the rules), more passengers and hence more revenue due to the more welcoming environment of having a staffed station.

 

[HST Power]

...One day, there may be a TVM that can do all these things, as well as sell tickets from any other station, but until then, ticket offices will still have a role to play. And, as I may have mentioned her ebefore, that doesn't mean that the ticket office can't evolve into something that is far more valuable and useful to the local community...

That's exactly my point. As technology continues to advance, it is somewhat inevitable that there will be TVMs with such a wide range of ticket facilities available.

We must also remember the hidden benefits of having a staffed presence. Less vandalism, less feral youth hanging about making the place untidy (as long as the staff have been given the right tools to take ownership of the station and the backing to enforce the rules), more passengers and hence more revenue due to the more welcoming environment of having a staffed station.

Nevertheless, I agree completely with the argument put forward in this post, with regard to staff presence and interaction with the customer. I for one have no wish to see stations destaffed completely.

 

[blacknight]

I should image that sooner of later the ticket office will be gone completely. These days, unless you have very specific journey requirements, you might as well just do it either on the internet or through a machine.
The need for human interaction when making purchases is becoming less and less; we've already seen this in supermarkets, with the introduction of dozens of 'self service tills.' It's an easy way for a company to save money. Why pay somebody to sit behind a desk and sell tickets when a computer can do it for you?

Mk1 Human can do many things a machine cannot do ie check for railcards/photocards helping prevent fraudulent travel, self service tills in supermarkets tend to have human supervisors so they are not unmanned & unlike the odd apple from supermarket losses to TOC's will be far greater. What happens when TVM fails to issue preordered tickets who is going to assist you then if ticket office as been closed, also who is going to restock TVM's you only have to look how many coupons are printed when using AP tickets.
Lets not go down path of deskilling the job to some private contractor with staff with little knowledge or training pay peanuts & you know what you get.
Ticket offices are not just about selling tickets its about providing a service to passengers.

 

[northwichcat]

According to news reports this morning Norman Baker is looking at replacing paper rail tickets with oyster style smart tickets.

 

[starrymarkb]

According to news reports this morning Norman Baker is looking at replacing paper rail tickets with oyster style smart tickets.

So something like the Dutch OV-Chipkaart, that might actually be a good idea in general. Regular travellers have a reusable card (like Oyster) and there are day/single/return tickets issued on disposable paper tickets with an RFID circuit to work the readers.

But the Dutch system also works on the buses, trams and metros as well.

 

[Greenback]

That's exactly my point. As technology continues to advance, it is somewhat inevitable that there will be TVMs with such a wide range of ticket facilities available.

My point is that even then there will be a requirement for ticket offices, even if the traditional ticket office is limited ot the largest stations, and elsewhere they are combined with other services.

There will still be a demand for a human interface by some groups in society.

Nevertheless, I agree completely with the argument put forward in this post, with regard to staff presence and interaction with the customer. I for one have no wish to see stations destaffed completely.

Excellent!

 

[RichmondCommu]

And, as I may have mentioned her ebefore, that doesn't mean that the ticket office can't evolve into something that is far more valuable and useful to the local community...

The problem is many things which are supposedly valuable and useful to the local community are closing; the local post office, the pub, the village shop, the petrol station, even the bank. The point is so much is done via the internet which means its no longer necessary to have human contact.

With an Oyster Card and a season ticket, it’s almost year since I last used the ticket office at Richmond station. Indeed if it wasn't for barriers at stations customers would now be printing their own tickets.

 

[Aictos]

One thing I don't agree with is closing or reducing the hours of booking offices which have been proven to be busier then neighbouring stations only for the local MP to step in and protest....

This has actually happened - I'm not going to state which station but to us local staff on the ground it's a decision which never made any sense at all.

I can't use the TVMs as the tickets I usually buy are only available from the ticket office, when I want to renew my Plusbus season as a example I can only renew it from a booking office as the TVMs can't renew it for me.

However with the much more quieter booking offices, rather then close them all together or reduce the opening hours, I believe we ought to follow MerseyRail's example and use them to retail other products or indeed maybe use them as a tourism offices.

 

[Greenback]

The problem is many things which are supposedly valuable and useful to the local community are closing; the local post office, the pub, the village shop, the petrol station, even the bank. The point is so much is done via the internet which means its no longer necessary to have human contact.

With an Oyster Card and a season ticket, it’s almost year since I last used the ticket office at Richmond station. Indeed if it wasn't for barriers at stations customers would now be printing their own tickets.

Yes, the world is changing. However, where there are stations, they could double as ticket agents, a local shop, post office, bank, cafe or maybe even a petrol station (though the trouble with the latter is there is a very, very small profit margin on petrol).

 

[transmanche]

So something like the Dutch OV-Chipkaart, that might actually be a good idea in general. Regular travellers have a reusable card (like Oyster) and there are day/single/return tickets issued on disposable paper tickets with an RFID circuit to work the readers.

But the Dutch system also works on the buses, trams and metros as well.

However the Dutch have a fairly simple, nationwide pricing structure.

You pay a fixed fee per journey plus so much per km - the exact rate depends on the operator. (If you start a second journey within 35 mins of ending the first one, it counts as one journey.)