Bookham - Brighton via Guildford?

[cvinall]

Can any routing experts see a reason why a journey from Bookham to Brighton, on a 'Not Via Clapham Junction' ticket, should not go via Guildford? I am using Leatherhead (LHD) as a routing point, and maps DK+XB, which intersect at Guildford (and also at Dorking Group). Dorking looks obvious as a place to change maps, but I cannot find anything prohibiting Guildford.

My reasoning: Valid routing points for the journey are Leatherhead(LHD) and Brighton(BTN). A map combination for these routing points is DK+XB. My desired route is Leatherhead, Effingham Junction, Guildford, Gomshall, Redhill, Brighton.. LHD and Guildford(GLD) are both on map DK, and Guildford and Brighton are both on map XB, via Gomshall and Redhill. Having selected suitable routing points, and ensuring that the journey does not pass through the 'Not Via' station, I no longer need to consider fares - is that right? There is no doubling-back, and no re-use of maps. This doesn't feel right, but I cannot find anything saying it would not be permitted.

Have I missed anything?

 

[alistairlees]

Would you mind explaining what stations the three letter codes represent? I believe it's forum policy to do so.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Can any routing experts see a reason why a journey from Bookham to Brighton, on a 'Not Via Clapham Junction' ticket, should not go via Guildford? I am using LHD as a routing point, and maps DK+XB, which intersect at Guildford (and also at Dorking Group). Dorking looks obvious as a place to change maps, but I cannot find anything prohibiting Guildford.

My reasoning: Valid routing points for the journey are LHD and BTN. A map combination for these routing points is DK+XB. My desired route is LHD-EFF-GLD-GOM-RDH-BTN. LHD and GLD are both on map DK, and GLD and BTN are both on map XB, via GOM and RDH. Having selected suitable routing points, and ensuring that the journey does not pass through the 'Not Via' station, I no longer need to consider fares - is that right? There is no doubling-back, and no re-use of maps. This doesn't feel right, but I cannot find anything saying it would not be permitted.

Have I missed anything?

I am not very familiar with the local railway geography and the three letter codes don't help me much (would prefer full station names as per forum policy) but I don't think this is valid.

Leatherhead (LHD) is an appropriate RP for Bookham, but Effingham Junction (EFF) is not. Therefore we can only use the map combinations offered from LHD to Brighton (BTN) and not those from EFD to BTN.

DK+XB is indeed one of the map combinations for LHD-BTN and it does indeed appear to show a route for LHD-EFF-Guildford (GLD)-and then on to BTN. However this is not a permissible route after all, since you are passing through EFF - and EFF is not an appropriate RP (it fails the fares check). There is a section detailing this in the Routeing Guide but I can't find it right now.

Other than this your plan would work - and in all likelihood it is a reasonable route it is unlikely you'd be pulled up on it.

 

[cvinall]

I am not very familiar with the local railway geography and the three letter codes don't help me much (would prefer full station names as per forum policy) but I don't think this is valid.

Leatherhead (LHD) is an appropriate RP for Bookham, but Effingham Junction (EFF) is not. Therefore we can only use the map combinations offered from LHD to Brighton (BTN) and not those from EFD to BTN.

DK+XB is indeed one of the map combinations for LHD-BTN and it does indeed appear to show a route for LHD-EFF-Guildford (GLD)-and then on to BTN. However this is not a permissible route after all, since you are passing through EFF - and EFF is not an appropriate RP (it fails the fares check). There is a section detailing this in the Routeing Guide but I can't find it right now.

Other than this your plan would work - and in all likelihood it is a reasonable route it is unlikely you'd be pulled up on it.

Thanks, and my apologies. I edited the original post with full station names now.

It's the bit that says that you can't pass through a station that is a routing point on your way to intersect the next map that I didn't see anywhere.

 

[JB_B]

I am not very familiar with the local railway geography and the three letter codes don't help me much (would prefer full station names as per forum policy) but I don't think this is valid.

Leatherhead (LHD) is an appropriate RP for Bookham, but Effingham Junction (EFF) is not. Therefore we can only use the map combinations offered from LHD to Brighton (BTN) and not those from EFD to BTN. DK+XB is indeed one of the map combinations for LHD-BTN and it does indeed appear to show a route for LHD-EFF-Guildford (GLD)-and then on to BTN.

I agree with this....

but...

However this is not a permissible route after all, since you are passing through EFF - and EFF is not an appropriate RP (it fails the fares check). There is a section detailing this in the Routeing Guide but I can't find it right now.

Other than this your plan would work - and in all likelihood it is a reasonable route it is unlikely you'd be pulled up on it.

I currently exclude routes through org/dest RP/G pairs that fail the check but that's only because this seems to be part of the accepted wisdom of the community. I don't believe this is stated explicitly anywhere in the public-facing routeing guide. (It may be a consequence of the further guidance to TIS developers.)

(And on the other hand, given the local geography ,I would rate the route via Guildford's 'reasonableness' as marginal at best - that may be relevant to the OP and their chances of being challenged. It would be interesting to know if this would have been accepted in pre routeing-guide days.)

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I agree with this....

but...



I currently exclude routes through org/dest RP/G pairs that fail the check but that's only because this seems to be part of the accepted wisdom of the community. I don't believe this is stated explicitly anywhere in the public-facing routeing guide. (It may be a consequence of the further guidance to TIS developers.)

(And on the other hand, given the local geography ,I would rate the route via Guildford's 'reasonableness' as marginal at best - that may be relevant to the OP and their chances of being challenged. It would be interesting to know if this would have been accepted in pre routeing-guide days.)

Sorry, there was a crucial "if" missing in my post. I meant to say - "if" it is a reasonable route it is unlikely you'd be challenged. I don't know the geography and service pattern etc. well enough to say what might be considered reasonable!

 

[30907]

NRE (National Rail Enquiries) doesn't like via Guildford.

 

[cvinall]

NRE (National Rail Enquiries) doesn't like via Guildford.

Indeed it doesn't... with Bookham as the starting point. However, I just tried using Leatherhead as the starting point instead though, and my routing seems to be allowed by the journey planner for that journey. Which, I think, answers my original question, since Bookham is the first station call after leaving Leatherhead on the first leg of the journey towards Guildford.

 

[JB_B]

Indeed it doesn't... with Bookham as the starting point. However, I just tried using Leatherhead as the starting point instead though, and my routing seems to be allowed by the journey planner for that journey. Which, I think, answers my original question, since Bookham is the first station call after leaving Leatherhead on the first leg of the journey towards Guildford.

As far as I can see that's fine - and of course you can still start your journey at Bookham as long as you use the Leatherhead - Brighton ticket.

It might be worth buying online and getting a printout of the itinerary as it might not be obvious to all rail staff that this is a valid route.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Indeed it doesn't... with Bookham as the starting point. However, I just tried using Leatherhead as the starting point instead though, and my routing seems to be allowed by the journey planner for that journey. Which, I think, answers my original question, since Bookham is the first station call after leaving Leatherhead on the first leg of the journey towards Guildford.

Well of course using Leatherhead would not pose any problems - as there no selection of appropriate Routeing Points comes into question (as it is Leatherhead and Brighton; that's it!). Since LHD-BTN costs the same as BKA-BTN (it's the same flow) there's point getting the BKA one, considering it has reduced validity.

This kind of thing does crop up surprisingly frequently - where a ticket from a given station within a flow has a considerably better or worse validity than those for other stations within the flow.

 

[A Challenge]

You can start short at Bookham on a Leatherhead ticket to any destination on a route via Effingham Junction