Booked Train Only?

[John @ home]

I don't mean to sound like I'm being funny

No. You don't sound like you're being funny. You are just ascribing a different meaning to the word booked from the word reserved.

book verb (booked, booking)

1. tr & intr to reserve (a ticket, seat, etc), or engage (a person's services) in advance • Have you booked, sir?
2. said of a police officer, traffic warden, etc: to record the details of (a person who is being charged with an offence).
3. football said of a referee: to enter (a player's name) in a notebook as a record of an offence or serious violation of the rules.
4. to enter (a person's name, etc) in a book or list.

be in someone's good or bad books to be in or out of favour with them.
be booked up to have no more places or tickets available.
bring someone to book to punish them or make them account for their behaviour.
by the book strictly according to the rules • I played it by the book and didn't take any chances.
in my book in my opinion • That amounts to cheating, in my book.
on the books officially listed as a member, customer, etc.
suit someone's book to be what they want or like.
take a leaf out of someone's book to benefit from their example.
throw the book at someone see under throw.
ETYMOLOGY: Anglo-Saxon boc.

http://www.chambersharrap.co.uk/cha...ery=booked&title=21st&sourceid=Mozilla-search

Which of the alternative meanings do you think applies in this case?

 

[Flamingo]

Right, just to throw my tuppenceworth into the discussion...

I have memories of in the past reading on this or another forum that when the Advanced Ticket does not give a specific train when several trains are involved in a journey, what is expected is that the passenger will catch the train that is given by the NR route-planner as the one that connects into the reserved portion. I don't know if it's correct, but it seems logical (I know, the two do not always go together).

I'll try to ask a grown-up next time I see an RPI if this is correct or not.

However, as a general rule, it's usually a good idea with advanced tickets to have a copy of the itinerary as given when the ticket was bought, and never throw any ticket / reservation issued until the whole journey is completed.

As you know, us guards are a suspicious but a bit dim, and like to see things in writing!

 

[John @ home]

I'll try to ask a grown-up next time I see an RPI if this is correct or not.

That tactic would only work if there were a grown-up present.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

book verb (booked, booking)

1. tr & intr to reserve (a ticket, seat, etc), or engage (a person's services) in advance • Have you booked, sir?

When people say 'reserved' in a railway context, it is implied there is a seat waiting for them. In order to show the difference in what I mean with regards to trains, I use the term 'booked', to show that whilst a service has been agreed on, there is no reserved seat. This may not be the way the term is used in the FRPP (I believe it is but there is a lack of evidence to support either way), but it is the way it makes the most sense.

If you believe this is not right, please explain how the op can get from Cambridge to Paddington using only his booked trains?

 

[jopsuk]

If you believe this is not right, please explain how the op can get from Cambridge to Paddington using only his booked trains?

By flapping his arms and flying.

What? It makes more sense than your tortured explanation that adds needless complication to the answer to the OP. The real life answer is that, from Paddington to Cambridge, the OP can use any normal route and any train. He has no "booked" train- the routing engine has given him a "suggested" train.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So, how is a ticket valid only on booked services valid on non-reservable services?

If it is so simple you should have no problem answering that.

 

[Greenback]

I have a headache! HHF, I believe that you have invented this idea in order to explain the contradictions that you see between the T&C's of Advance tickets, and the NCoC's.

Whilst this is very laudable, it is also quite a tortured way of viewing things, and only makes things more complicated for most people.

I realise that the different ways of issuing Advance tickets these days is not ideal (made more complicated by the concept of trains with Advance quotas but no ressies - thanks SWT), but most of us passengers and, from experience, on board staff, are quite happy for Advances to be used on any train that can't be reserved.

 

[yorkie]

I know what HFF is saying.

But I disagree with his interpretation.

I think we agree ATOC are at fault for not making it clear.

Historically there have been flows "AP <placename>" e.g. "AP Slough" or "AP Londn Reading" this was presumably brought in before the term "& connections" was brought in, and certainly before simplification in 2008 and widespread introduction of AP fares in the mid-2000s. These routeings remain in place today. Yet ATOC word their rules as if they do not exist. So you have to make an interpretation. Either you assume that these tickets are really "& Connections" tickets or you assume they are treated as TOC-specific ones which don't allow connections. The latter argument is illogical as, by HHF's own admission if these tickets only allow "booked" trains, how can they then be valid? His argument is that a suggested train is therefore "booked" however I don't see it that way as that is nonsense in my opinion. It is my interpretation that it is an oversight on ATOC's part not to either include these tickets along with "& Connections" or re-route these tickets "& Connections". For Manchester to Edinburgh you have TPE & Connections, EC & Connections, Virgin & Connections, you don't have AP York or AP Carlisle. Yet for historical reasons some routes (particularly in the Western region, that includes flows now priced by both FGW and ATW now) are routed differently to everywhere else and ATOC ignore the fact (the person who wrote the rules is probably completely unaware of it!)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have a headache! HHF, I believe that you have invented this idea in order to explain the contradictions that you see between the T&C's of Advance tickets, and the NCoC's.

Whilst this is very laudable, it is also quite a tortured way of viewing things, and only makes things more complicated for most people....

What exactly have I invented though, I guess the only thing is that a non-reservable service can still be booked. It doesn't specifically say that anywhere that I know of, but it makes sense, it fits the rules as they are written, which frankly, is more than anyone else has managed thus far.

I've not invented rules about non-reservable services being fine with "booked train only" tickets.

I've not invented rules about ignoring of conditions of the ticket when it suits me.

I haven't sought to bypass contradicts, I haven't even said there are contradictions. There are certainly omissions, I can't deny that, but that is hardly the same thing. Other posters in this thread, and others in the past, have found contradiction in the rules because they have interpreted it in a certain way, a way I believe is both wrong and flawed.

In what way is it more complicated or confusing than "I don't know why it's valid, it just is"?

....I realise that the different ways of issuing Advance tickets these days is not ideal (made more complicated by the concept of trains with Advance quotas but no ressies - thanks SWT), but most of us passengers and, from experience, on board staff, are quite happy for Advances to be used on any train that can't be reserved.

I have not said anything different from that in my explanation of how it must be. I have said it is valid on any reasonable non-reservable service just like everyone else. I have never said that I believe it to be different from that.

My understanding of the situation does explain why it is valid, when no-one else can. It is within the rules and is potentially of benefit to the passengers.

 

[Greenback]

I know it's potentially useful to passengers, and an attempt to make sense of all of the various rules and conditions, that's why I called it laudable! But I also believe it 'muddies the waters', particularly for anyone who is not fully conversant with all of the Advance ticket vagaries and descriptions across the network.

I think the idea that you are booked on to a train, when as far as the average passenger is concerned they are not asa they don't have any evidence of a reservation, is the big stumbling block!

 

[Zoe]

Historically there have been flows "AP <placename>" e.g. "AP Slough" or "AP Londn Reading" this was presumably brought in before the term "& connections" was brought in, and certainly before simplification in 2008 and widespread introduction of AP fares in the mid-2000s.

As I remember it Apex tickets in the 1990s from say Exeter to Romford used to have route "AP Slough" on them. This was long before the TOCs decided that everyone should book in advance or pay through the roof and these tickets were only available in limited numbers on specific routes. Back then most of these tickets were purchased at a station with the train and seats written on the ticket and no indication of what train should be used from Liverpool Street.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yorkie, it is more logical than you give it credit.

Lets take another example....

Milton Keynes to Exeter St Davids rte AP Slough WES (Advance) £15.50

I book a ticket from Milton Keynes to Euston on a Virgin Trains (VT) service and a First Great Western (FGW) service from Paddington to Exeter, I get a seat reservation coupon for both trains. I cannot use a London Midland (LM) service to Euston as I have to use the booked services, right?

Now lets suppose I have the same ticket, but when I bought it I told the clerk I was going on a non-reservable LM service to London and then on that same FGW service. Now I only get one reservation coupon, for the FGW train. What happens if I get on that VT service instead?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

....But I also believe it 'muddies the waters', particularly for anyone who is not fully conversant with all of the Advance ticket vagaries and descriptions across the network.

I think the idea that you are booked on to a train, when as far as the average passenger is concerned they are not asa they don't have any evidence of a reservation, is the big stumbling block!

How can the water possibly be any more muddy than with the other peoples views on this?

I generally find people who don't know or understand the rules will go with what they do know, unless they have to change their plans. This means even if they have no reservation, they will travel at the time they were told there was a train.

 

[MikeWh]

Yorkie, it is more logical than you give it credit.

Lets take another example....

Milton Keynes to Exeter St Davids rte AP Slough WES (Advance) £15.50

I book a ticket from Milton Keynes to Euston on a Virgin Trains (VT) service and a First Great Western (FGW) service from Paddington to Exeter, I get a seat reservation coupon for both trains. I cannot use a London Midland (LM) service to Euston as I have to use the booked services, right?

Now lets suppose I have the same ticket, but when I bought it I told the clerk I was going on a non-reservable LM service to London and then on that same FGW service. Now I only get one reservation coupon, for the FGW train. What happens if I get on that VT service instead?

Would you be able to specify an Advance using LM only for that journey? Surely the advance fare would include reserving on all appropriate services. If you wanted to use other services you'd probably have to split it into two tickets? Or am I missing something?

Also, if you are trying to use the suggested trains on non-reservable services, how is one supposed to know which Underground train(s) to get?

 

[Fred26]

Yorkie, it is more logical than you give it credit.

Lets take another example....

Milton Keynes to Exeter St Davids rte AP Slough WES (Advance) £15.50

I book a ticket from Milton Keynes to Euston on a Virgin Trains (VT) service and a First Great Western (FGW) service from Paddington to Exeter, I get a seat reservation coupon for both trains. I cannot use a London Midland (LM) service to Euston as I have to use the booked services, right?

Now lets suppose I have the same ticket, but when I bought it I told the clerk I was going on a non-reservable LM service to London and then on that same FGW service. Now I only get one reservation coupon, for the FGW train. What happens if I get on that VT service instead?

I'm not sure the second scenario is even possible.

I never realised there was any confusion over this. I've always told people that when it comes to the non-reservable section, they can use whichever train they like; it is only the train with a reservation that they have to travel on.
I tell people this for two reasons; firstly because they ask about a reservation on the non-reservable portion and secondly because some people want more time to make the connection than has been suggest by the planner.

I've never heard of anyone being confused by this before.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well if the LM services have quotas or have been made reservable (I haven't checked that I'll be honest) then maybe it isn't, but then the following should be possible without a reservation to London.

Milton Keynes - Harrow and Wealdstone (Southern)
Harrow and Wealdstone - Euston (London Overground)
Paddington - Exeter St Davids (FGW)

 

[Zoe]

Milton Keynes - Harrow and Wealdstone (Southern)
Harrow and Wealdstone - Euston (London Overground)
Paddington - Exeter St Davids (FGW)

Break of journey is not allowed on an advance ticket though except to interchange. The question here is if an interchange is permitted once you have boarded a direct train.

 

[Deerfold]

Break of journey is not allowed on an advance ticket though except to interchange. The question here is if an interchange is permitted once you have boarded a direct train.

But the Southern train isn't going to London.

 

[Zoe]

If you are going to change at Harrow & Wealdstone for London Overground though there would be little point in going all the way into Euston. It would be a much better idea to change at Queen's Park for the Bakerloo line or even get the Bakerloo line all the way from Harrow to Paddington.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The question remains the same though.

 

[yorkie]

Break of journey is not allowed on an advance ticket though except to interchange.

That means "Leaving station premises except to join a train from another station is not allowed on advance tickets though except to interchange" Two exceptions mean that you are effectively being told that you CAN leave station premises when simply changing trains, in other words at Harrow & Wealdstone you are allowed to leave the station for a smoke or to visit a shop while waiting for your onward train. If the exception wasn't there, you'd only be allowed out of the station if your connecting train departed from another station, e.g. Harrow-on-the-Hill.

If you do not leave station premises then break of journey restrictions do not concern you as you are doing no such thing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The question remains the same though.

Yes, I know what you are saying and another example is London to Leeds EC & Connections, someone may be booked on an EMT connecting train from Donny to Leeds, someone else may be advised to get the NT stopper. Before simplification, under GNER these tickets stated something like "Valid on GNER train shown, plus any suitable connecting train as appropriate" in the validity restrictions (or similar wording to that). ATOC then simplified with "common conditions" worded in such a way that you, in ATOC-speak, "know exactly where you stand" which in reality means, so you do NOT know where you stand.

I agree you are not 'inventing' these rules but you are interpreting them in a way that I (and others) disagree with.

Looking at the history it is obvious what is intended, and where there is doubt consumer law sides with the consumer, however an over-zealous guard could attempt to enforce your interpretation. This is a concern, but in reality it is very rare that a guard attempts to do this. In fact, so rare, that I can't recall any specific cases off the top of my head (and a lot of people tend to tell me about problems they have, via PM or in person at various forum meets).

 

[Zoe]

If you do not leave station premises then break of journey restrictions do not concern you as you are doing no such thing.

That's interesting, a few years ago when the Voyagers were first introduced I know someone that was going from Newton Abbot to Redruth on a Super Saver Return. This was back in the days were break of journey was not permitted on the outward portion. They were informed that if they boarded the Voyager at Newton Abbot they would have to stay on it all the way to Redruth and would not be allowed to leave at Plymouth to board the following FGW HST.

 

[yorkie]

If you are going to change at Harrow & Wealdstone for London Overground though there would be little point in going all the way into Euston. It would be a much better idea to change at Queen's Park for the Bakerloo line or even get the Bakerloo line all the way from Harrow to Paddington.

The most sensible and hassle-free way to do the journey is probably a fast train to Harrow, then Bakerloo to Paddington.

Alternatively a fast train to Euston, a walk to Euston Square, then the first available train either to Paddington or if it's a Met, take it anyway unless there's a H&C right behind, and sit in about the middle of the train and then go down the stairs/escalators to the Bakerloo.

A good solution would be for all tickets to be "TOC & Connections" none of this "AP wherever" nonsense, then issue a mandatory reservataion for the TOC that sets the fare, and then issue advisory coupons for the other TOCs, that state the time, no seat (even on the Virgin train used as an example above) and clearly saying Suggested Service.

Sadly the term Suggested Service (which was clear) was removed by ATOC. This is part of their overall policy of complication and ensuring customers do not know where they stand, and dis-allowing customers to buy with confidence. If ATOC are allowed to effectively act as a regulator and are not required to adhere to Plain English, then these confusions will continue and only get worse!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's interesting, a few years ago when the Voyagers were first introduced I know someone that was going from Newton Abbot to Redruth on a Super Saver Return. This was back in the days were break of journey was not permitted on the outward portion. They were informed that if they boarded the Voyager at Newton Abbot they would have to stay on it all the way to Redruth and would not be allowed to leave at Plymouth to board the following FGW HST.

By who? Someone unknowledgeable. I don't have a big problem with anyone who is knowledgeable providing they:
1) Don't pretend to be knowledgeable
2) Don't invent rules
3) Look up rules if they have any doubt
4) Interpret conflicting rules in favour of the consumer, in accordance with the law

In the case of break of journey they have no excuse for failing to look up the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your
journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start
your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.

That's pretty straightforward.

If I go to Wetherspoon at Leeds for a pub lunch, I am NOT leaving the station so that is NOT a break of journey. If someone does not like it, tough!

Leeds station map

 

[Zoe]

By who?

It was either a member of station staff at Newton Abbot or the Virgin Train Manager.

 

[yorkie]

It was either a member of station staff at Newton Abbot or the Virgin Train Manager.

Station staff, in general, tend to be less knowledgeable, so this does not surprise me. The average station staff member would not have anywhere near the level of knowledge that avid readers of this forum would have. But the unwillingness to check the conditions is inexcusable.

If it was a Train Manager that is more surprising, as most of them tend to be reasonably knowledgeable. However there are always exceptions. On this route, the TMs do vary in terms of knowledge, one of the best knows the connection of every train along the route including which platform they are booked to depart from and which station is best to change at, and he advises customers as he checks tickets without needing to look up the info as he has it memorised! At the other end of the scale some TMs who are downright rude and don't understand that we are customers. But the bad ones are, I believe, very much in the minority. Like all walks of life, some are better than others.

It is important to know your rights in case you encounter one of the less good ones!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Yes, I know what you are saying and another example is London to Leeds EC & Connections, someone may be booked on an EMT connecting train from Donny to Leeds, someone else may be advised to get the NT stopper....

Well, that instance it is slightly different as you are refering to a ticket routed '& Connections', which is specifically dealt with in the conditions of the ticket.

That's interesting, a few years ago when the Voyagers were first introduced I know someone that was going from Newton Abbot to Redruth on a Super Saver Return. This was back in the days were break of journey was not permitted on the outward portion. They were informed that if they boarded the Voyager at Newton Abbot they would have to stay on it all the way to Redruth and would not be allowed to leave at Plymouth to board the following FGW HST.

Changing trains, walking between stations local to each other as part f your journey (e.g Wigan Wallgate to Wigan North Western), using station facilities and following the instructions of members of staff are not considered a break of journey, they have not been for as long as I can recall.

 

[Zoe]

If I wanted to go from Bristol to Paddington but return from Paddington to Taunton though, I couldn't use a Taunton to London Terminals ticket and start at Bristol could I on the old Super Saver return?

 

[yorkie]

If I wanted to go from Bristol to Paddington but return from Paddington to Taunton though, I couldn't use a Taunton to London Terminals ticket and start at Bristol could I on the old Super Saver return?

Starting/finishing short is considered the same as break of journey (but I don't think this has been tested in court - has it? Certainly barring people from finishing short is on dodgy ground, although starting short is more enforceable) so wouldn't have been allowed on the outward portion (or a single) of a SSR/SVR. Now it is allowed unless a restriction prevents it.

 

[Greenback]

I am sorry if it came across that I was accusing HHF of inventing rules; I wasn't - I was saying that the idea of a non reservable train being a booked train was invented, and with good intentions!

All I know is that whenever I or anyone I know has booked an advance online, there is nothing at all to tell you what train the journey planner has suggested, other than any reservation coupons you receive. However, I take the point that if someone was on a VT service with an advance ticket that did not include a reservation on that service, they would be in danger of having to pay for a new ticket.

Given this, I assume that if it were possible to issue the ticket mentioned, it would have to have something to advise the passenger in order for it to be enforceable - something like 'FGW + LM Connections only'? I have tried an experiment of trying to book a Plymouth to Milton keynes advance, which only shows LM services anyway if you select Via Slough, but I'm not going to buy it just to see what it says!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If I wanted to go from Bristol to Paddington but return from Paddington to Taunton though, I couldn't use a Taunton to London Terminals ticket and start at Bristol could I on the old Super Saver return?

Break of journey is permitted for Super Off Peak returns between Taunton and Paddington, time restriction apply, but are lifted on 24th December and also between 27th December and 31st December inclusive.

 

[Zoe]

South West Trains do not offer seat reservations on any of their services. If you have an advance ticket you must still travel on the booked train though I expect a reservation coupon is issuesd stating the train you must travel on.