Booked Train Only?

[elpasi]

Hi, little bit confused/interested about my ticket.

I have a ticket EXD-CBG, validity 'BOOKDTRAINONLY'. When I bought it online, it broke it up into train journeys EXD-PAD and KGX-CBG, with a tube journey in the middle (included on the ticket with the dagger symbol). I noticed that with it, I only have a mandatory reservation coupon for EXD-PAD, since the KGX-CBG has no reservation required.

Given that I have no seat reservation coupon for the second train of the journey, and given that the tickets themselves do not state a time for the KGX-CBG part of the journey, do I still have to get the specified train I originally saw on the email, or can I use any train on that day? I'm trying to work out if the staff would even know that I wasn't on the right train, or whether the other leg of the journey was just advised, considering the ticket itself does not state the time of that part of the journey.

This isn't because I'm interested in breaking whatever rules surround this, it's because I want to know if I have to buy another ticket for KGX-CBG should I get completely lost and miss the train the email mentioned.

Thanks.

 

[jopsuk]

You cannot book on specific trains from London to Cambridge (no FCC train allows reservations). This means that your ticket is then valid (assuming no other restrictions) on any train on the route.
There is no way at all for the barrier staff at Kings Cross or Cambridge, or the occasional revenue protection on-train patrols (rare on the Express service in my experience) to know what train the booking engine will have suggested.

In fact, you would also be valid (though it would be slower) to travel to Liverpool Street or Tottenham Hale and catch a National Express East Anglia service on that line (I'm pretty sure)

 

[yorkie]

Your "booked train" is from Exeter St Davids (EXD) to London Paddington (PAD). Therefore, you "must" be on that train (or else, unless you have an incredibly sympathetic guard and/or a really good excuse, you will have to buy a new ticket!)

No other train is "booked".

My suggestion is to get off the train in the middle (slightly toward the rear) of the train and use the overbridge to get to the Hammersmith & City line platforms, then take the first available Underground train (not actually a tube, but sometimes called that) to King's Cross. If you're on time, a swift connection on LU and you'd be highly likely to get an earlier than the train from King's Cross that was originally suggested to you.

None of the King's Cross - Cambridge trains can be "booked" aka reserved, so get the first suitable one. Assuming a normal timetable, fast trains are at xx15 and xx45 past each hour. (If you just miss one at xx45, there is a xx52 that isn't too slow).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

For what it's worth I'll say that the 'Cambriddge Cruiser' (the non-stop xx45 train) has a tendancy to be busy, even in the middle of the day.

 

[elpasi]

So from this discussion I've gleaned: I need to be on EXD-PAD, but I can use any xx15/xx45/xx52 train for the KGX-CBG part of my journey of "AP LONDN READING/BOOKDTRAINONLY". Thanks!

If I take a return, I assume the same to be true, I can use any earlier train for CBG-KGX to ensure I don't miss a booked PAD-EXD?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If I take a return, I assume the same to be true, I can use any earlier train for CBG-KGX to ensure I don't miss a booked PAD-EXD?

You can be on any train from CBG-KGX that will get you into London for your booked train back just so long as it is on the same day!

 

[yorkie]

Yes.

And yes you can, although there is no need to do so (if you get the suggested train and miss the FGW train due to delays you will of course be allowed to get a later train to complete your journey) if the arrival time at Exeter is important to you (or getting a decent seat on the FGW train is!) then it is a good idea to get an earlier one than booked, yes. Providing there are no delays you'll have plenty of time at Paddington to wait for your train to Exeter, fortunately there are good facilities including M&S, Sainsbury etc. (but a lack of seating space can be a problem!)

 

[jopsuk]

For what it's worth I'll say that the 'Cambriddge Cruiser' (the non-stop xx45 train) has a tendancy to be busy, even in the middle of the day.

Displayed as "The Cambridge Express" at King Cross- think the "Cruiser" was formerly used to refer to the southbound.

the xx15 is also an Express, but it terminates at Cambridge. The 52 (northbound) is a semi-fast.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In this case, I agree with the others you can use any reasonable service between Kings Cross (KGX) and Cambridge (CBG) (and vice versa) as none are reservable, however you should allow atleast the mnimum suggested connection time in London on the return journey (online planners should do this automatically).

It should be noted for future reference, that if there was a reservable service, you could not use it without a reservation on that ticket, because it does not say '& Connections' in the route on the ticket.

If you are delayed en route from CBG to Paddington (PAD) on the return journey, you should be allowed to use the next available service, but, if possible, you should get the ticket endorsed before you leave KGX to aid everyone (you and staff) on your journey.

 

[Zoe]

Not this again. I was under the impression that so long as you were not issued with a reservation coupon for the King's Cross to Paddington leg of the journey then you could use any train. Not everyone agrees with this point of view though as discussed in another topic some people do say that every train shown on the travel plan is a booked train.

 

[yorkie]

Not this again.

Indeed. But don't worry, I will respond robustly but fairly to any attempt to erode our rights!

In this case, I agree with the others you can use any reasonable service between Kings Cross (KGX) and Cambridge (CBG) (and vice versa) as none are reservable,

Although that is not documented anywhere that is binding on the customer. It appears to be the interpretation by some TOCs, in the absence of a clear instruction from ATOC.

however you should allow atleast the mnimum suggested connection time in London on the return journey (online planners should do this automatically).

Agreed

It should be noted for future reference, that if there was a reservable service, you could not use it without a reservation on that ticket, because it does not say '& Connections' in the route on the ticket.

I disagree. There is no official ATOC documentation to support that view.

Even if there was, it would be unenforceable.

Last time this cropped up I destroyed that argument by giving an example of someone who could end up on a 'reservable' train without a reservation who would believe they got the train that was suggested them.

The term 'Suggested service' used to be printed by a non-reservable ticket in the old days of the large airline-style tickets that had all the suggested trains printed on the ticket. Now these suggested services are not printed on the ticket as there is not enough room for them, and as there is no reservation and no need for people to stick to a specific train as they can get any train, there is no separate coupon.

If you are delayed en route from CBG to Paddington (PAD) on the return journey, you should be allowed to use the next available service,

No, you ARE allowed. No "should be" about it.

but, if possible, you should get the ticket endorsed before you leave KGX to aid everyone (you and staff) on your journey.

Where is this documented? As far as I can see it's made-up.

If I got to King's Cross with 20 minutes before my train from Paddington due to a delay I would NOT guarantee missing it by queuing for an "endorsement" I would try to get to Paddington ASAP and if I missed it and there was a suitable train 5 minutes later I would jump on it, as it is my right to do so.

b) If delays occur while
travelling, they will be
allowed to take the next
available train(s) to complete
their journey.

No 'should be' about it. WILL BE means exactly that, and anyone denying someone that right, would be on highly dodgy ground and would deserve the full wrath of the media and their bosses.

 

[jopsuk]

In this case, I agree with the others you can use any reasonable service between Kings Cross (KGX) and Cambridge (CBG) (and vice versa) as none are reservable, however you should allow atleast the mnimum suggested connection time in London on the return journey (online planners should do this automatically).

I disagree- it is any reasonable route between Paddington
and Cambridge.

 

[yorkie]

I agree; it's perfectly valid via Liverpool Street.

 

[philjo]

Displayed as "The Cambridge Express" at King Cross- think the "Cruiser" was formerly used to refer to the southbound.

the xx15 is also an Express, but it terminates at Cambridge. The 52 (northbound) is a semi-fast.

"The Cambridge Cruiser" was the name used for the non-stop Cambridge services by WAGN (& I think NSE before that ?)
FCC have always called it "The Cambridge Express"

The xx:45 from Kings Cross goes on to Kings Lynn (that will be the destination shown on the departure screens) so will be busier than the xx:15.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I disagree. There is no official ATOC documentation to support that view.

Even if there was, it would be unenforceable.

Last time this cropped up I destroyed that argument by giving an example of someone who could end up on a 'reservable' train without a reservation who would believe they got the train that was suggested them.

The term 'Suggested service' used to be printed by a non-reservable ticket in the old days of the large airline-style tickets that had all the suggested trains printed on the ticket. Now these suggested services are not printed on the ticket as there is not enough room for them, and as there is no reservation and no need for people to stick to a specific train as they can get any train, there is no separate coupon.

I'm almost bored of going over this. We know and agree that...

It is only valid on booked trains unless routed '& Connections'..

Reservations are compulsory..

Change of travel plans incurs an admin charge of £10 per ticket, plus any difference in ticket price..

We are not given reservation coupons for non-reservable services..

.....So, if we say we are intending to travel on the last train of the day (whatever that happens to be), the first train is NOT reservable, the ticket is NOT routed '& Connections' and the previous train IS reservable, can we be allowed on the earlier reservable train at no extra charge?

The only answer can be no, because we do not have a reservation for the reservable service. If we intended to travel on the earlier reservable service we would have a reservation for it, we do not and the ticket does not say '& Connections' so we can't use a reasonable connection instead of our 'booked' train.

This is all either well known, or written in the conditions of the ticket that you agree to when you buy the ticket.

....No, you ARE allowed. No "should be" about it....

I agree, it is straight forward as I see it, however if you believe that a non-reservable service can not possibly be a 'booked' service, then you have a problem, see later in the post for more on this.

....Where is this documented? As far as I can see it's made-up.

If I got to King's Cross with 20 minutes before my train from Paddington due to a delay I would NOT guarantee missing it by queuing for an "endorsement" I would try to get to Paddington ASAP and if I missed it and there was a suitable train 5 minutes later I would jump on it, as it is my right to do so....

I was meaning that if you turn up at Paddington and miss the train, it would be quicker for everyone if the delay can be confirmed straight away, rather than having to make a phone call or look it all up on a computer. It's not written anywhere, I'm just thinking it *might* save time and effort in some cases, hence the 'if possible' bit.

I didn't mean to suggest that if there is still a chance of making the booked service, that you should not take it, just to get the ticket endorsed.

....No 'should be' about it. WILL BE means exactly that, and anyone denying someone that right, would be on highly dodgy ground and would deserve the full wrath of the media and their bosses.

Following on from what I said above, if you believe non-reservable services cannot be a 'booked' train, then the first booked train is the one from Paddington, if you miss that FOR ANY REASON you must buy a new ticket, this is a term of the ticket which you agree to by buying the ticket and you should (or perhaps I should say 'WILL') also be told about it when you buy the ticket.

I believe the non-reservable service is still a 'booked' service, but that it cannot be proved as such, hence you can use any reasonable non-reservable service, but not a reservable one (unless the ticket is routed '& Connections'). For some reason that I cannot work out, you seem to disagree with this, which causes an issue that need not exist.

I disagree- it is any reasonable route between Paddington
and Cambridge.

How exactly can you disagree with something then agree with it?

If we are talking routes, it is valid on any PERMITTED route between Paddington and Cambridge. This includes CBG to KGX.

In actual fact, I was refering to time (I could perhaps have made this clearer), not route, as I was under the impression that the OP was set on going via Kings Cross.

 

[Zoe]

I believe the non-reservable service is still a 'booked' service, but that it cannot be proved as such, hence you can use any reasonable non-reservable service, but not a reservable one (unless the ticket is routed '& Connections'). For some reason that I cannot work out, you seem to disagree with this, which causes an issue that need not exist.

How can it possibly be a booked service if you can't be booked on it? There is no ticket issued to you stating that you must travel on it.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you don't have a booked train and you can only use booked services (unless routed '& Connections') how can you use the ticket? You can't. Even if you could, there are then issues if you are delayed before your first booked train, things like having to buy a new ticket to travel.

What I'm saying is that the non-reservable train is still a booked train, but the railway doesn't give you the reservation coupon for it. This means it can't be proved which non-reservable service you are booked on, it's not a hard concept to grasp really.

 

[Zoe]

What I'm saying is that the non-reservable train is still a booked train, but the railway doesn't give you the reservation coupon for it. This means it can't be proved which non-reservable service you are booked on, it's not a hard concept to grasp really.

Where exactly on your ticket does it state you are booked on the non-reservable train?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Okay, clearly I'll have to spell it out for you.

IF THE NON-RESERVABLE TRAIN IS NOT THE FIRST BOOKED TRAIN....

The ticket is routed '+AP London Reading', so we can't use a train shown on a valid travel itinerary, as it is not routed '& Connections'. Therefore we can only use the booked trains. So how do you suppose we get to Paddington from Cambridge? Buy a new ticket? Hitch a lift? (problem one)

We can't start, break and resume or end our journey short, so if we hitch a lift and get to Paddington, our journey now starts there. How do you suppose we use our ticket? (problem two)

Even if we get a train from Cambridge, either by buying a new ticket or 'chancing it', if we are late for the train from Paddington and miss it, we have now missed our first booked train and have to buy a new ticket. (problem three)

IF THE NON-RESERVABLE TRAIN IS THE FIRST BOOKED TRAIN....

We can get on the non-reservable train from Cambridge with no hassle, it cannot be proved which non-reservable train is the booked one and so cannot be questioned on that provided it has a reasonable connection time. Problem one avoided.

We get to Paddington, we have not started our journey short. Problem two avoided

Even if we miss the train from Paddington, it was not our first booked train so we can travel on a later service. Problem three avoided.

CONCLUSION....

We might not get a reserved seat, but it can still be booked. All that is missing really is a coupon saying " coach * seat *** ".

Perhaps everyone would prefer that the railway issue them and clamp down on the use of Advance fares on non-reservable services? That way we can all be restricted, as was originally intended, instead of being given some flexibility in an otherwise inflexable ticket. Sounds perfect, lets all campaign for it, Yorkie can draw up the petition if he likes.

 

[Zoe]

I will ask again, how can you possibly have a booked train when no booking is made? Neither yourself or rail staff have anything to say what your booked train is unless you have a reservation. That is like saying you have a booked seat even though no reservation is made.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yorkie and I have had this arguement over and over, I think we are both bored of it, but neither of us agree with the other. So, just for you, I will take this one step at a time....again.

We all agree the non-reserved service is not shown on the ticket or on an accompanying coupon.

We all know that the conditions of the ticket are that we only use the booked trains unless the ticket says '& Connections' in the route.

The Op tells us this ticket is routed 'AP London Reading'.

How do we get from Cambridge to Paddington?

 

[John @ home]

We know and agree that...

It is only valid on booked trains unless routed '& Connections'..

No. This analysis does not take account of instances where a place name is included in the Route description instead of a train company. For example, Advance fares Stevenage - Sheffield are issued route PETERBORO & EC. It is evident that a connection is required because EC does not serve Sheffield. For example, if travelling via Worksop, the ticket would be accepted on any train Retford - Sheffield, none of which are reservable.

 

[Ferret]

Further to this, I've seen Glasgow-Plymouth Advance tickets marked VWC & Connections, but still with a reservation for the xx:12 XC service out of Birmingham New St. Not sure how this agrees with what you're saying HHF?

 

[Zoe]

The Op tells us this ticket is routed 'AP London Reading'.

How do we get from Cambridge to Paddington?

If we interpret the rules as you suggest then as it's not possible to be booked onto a train from Cambridge to Paddington then the journey is impossible.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No. This analysis does not take account of instances where a place name is included in the Route description instead of a train company. For example, Advance fares Stevenage - Sheffield are issued route PETERBORO & EC. It is evident that a connection is required because EC does not serve Sheffield. For example, if travelling via Worksop, the ticket would be accepted on any train Retford - Sheffield, none of which are reservable.

Well, if Yorkie is right and the non-reservable service can't be booked, then there is big issue with that. If it is true that the non-reservable service can be, atleast considered as booked then most issues are resolved. I must admit I was unaware of the Stevenage-Sheffield example, that is a curious one.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Further to this, I've seen Glasgow-Plymouth Advance tickets marked VWC & Connections, but still with a reservation for the xx:12 XC service out of Birmingham New St. Not sure how this agrees with what you're saying HHF?

To be honest I think that issue goes back to the first signs of Virgin losing the XC franchise. The 'VT & Connections fares became 'VXC & Connections' and/or 'VWC & Connections'. I believe this has been a problem ever since.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If we interpret the rules as you suggest then as it's not possible to be booked onto a train from Cambridge to Paddington then the journey is impossible.

I'm not interpreting them, that's what they say. The only way it can be valid is if the non-reservable service is booked, even if we don't get a coupon for it.

 

[Zoe]

I'm not interpreting them, that's what they say. The only way it can be valid is if the non-reservable service is booked, even if we don't get a coupon for it.

In that case that ticket is completely useless as you can't be booked on any of the trains from Cambridge to King's Cross.

 

[John @ home]

Advance fares Stevenage - Sheffield are issued route PETERBORO & EC. It is evident that a connection is required because EC does not serve Sheffield. For example, if travelling via Worksop, the ticket would be accepted on any train Retford - Sheffield, none of which are reservable.

if Yorkie is right and the non-reservable service can't be booked, then there is big issue with that.

I don't see any issue. In my example, the passenger travels from Stevenage to Retford on one or more EC trains in accordance with their reservation (or, depending on the timetable, by unreservable FCC to Peterborough then by reserved EC to Retford).

On arrival at Retford, I don't think there will be many disputes between the passenger and the railway industry about how to conclude the contract for carriage to Sheffield.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The conditions of the ticket are that you must use the booked services unless the route on the ticket says '& Connections'. This is fact, it cannot be denied.

This being true, you either face the fact that the ticket is impossible to use, or that non-reservable services are still booked, even if it cannot be proved which one is booked.

My thoughts on the Stevenage-Sheffield example are that it does not say 'EC Only' or 'EC & Connections', I suspect this is deliberate. Because it does not say 'EC Only' it IS valid on other TOCs however you must at some point use EC. Because it does not say '....& Connections' you must use the booked services.

This means that if a non-reservable service is booked you can still use the ticket, but if not it is impossible to use.

 

[Zoe]

This being true, you either face the fact that the ticket is impossible to use, or that non-reservable services are still booked, even if it cannot be proved which one is booked.

But as it doesn't say on your ticket which service is booked, how are you supposed to know which one to use?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't mean to sound like I'm being funny but most would enquire when they purchase the ticket or print it off the website.

There are non-reservable services in the UK for which Advance quotas exist. For these services you get a reservation coupon where the coach and seat are replaced by ****. The only reason you do not get a reservation coupon for other non-reservable services is that no qouta exists for them. If they did there might only be two or three on a pacer or sprinter service outside of the southeast. I'm sure more than that might want to use a particular service, especially on a Summer Saturday.