Class800
Established Member
So effectively seat reservations are solely advisory and cannot be relied on or enforced
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Booked seat not available on LNER as passengers wouldn't move
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py_megapixel
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So, apparently, is the whole timetable at the moment!
Haywain
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They are more than advisory but that are limits to what can be done to enforce them. Staff will, I expect, be advised against using force by both the employers and the unions. And I doubt that delaying a train would be seen as appropriate if there is no other behavioural issue involved.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The newspaper method could always be used, it works on buses. "This train will not be departing until the passengers wrongly occupying Coach C, seats 20 and 21 leave those seats so the people who have reserved them can sit there" (then get out the newspaper and wait). If they don't shift themselves, a few other passengers will deal with it.
Haywain
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Years ago, I was on a DOO train where the driver chose to do that over a different issue. It took something like half an hour and then resulted in the cancellation of the following train and early termination of the one I was on. First train of a Sunday morning and, fortunately, I didn’t miss the flight I was headed for.
Still awaiting an answer to this.
Were seat reservations displayed?
What exactly was said?
If reservations were displayed, I would be surprised if you spoke to the Train Manager and they refused to assist.
If reservations were not displayed and staff cannot find an alternative seat, then that's just bad luck and the other passengers did nothing wrong. But you can claim under LNER's Seat Guarantee scheme.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
That's ridiculous. Mounting minutes of delay for such a reason!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Reservations are meaningless if not enforced. Thus they should be enforced by whatever means necessary or abolished.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Not by delaying the train...
Parham Wood
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If the offenders paid by credit card surely the guard could take the ticket details and then BTP could trace the offender(s) and prosecute. Or perhaps BTP cannot be bothered, if so questions should be asked and action taken by those who can.
Runningaround
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Daft idea the train can still run but you'd delay every passenger and cause them issues just over a seat, including the passenger with the reservation. Ask them what they wish ''wait for the train to be met by BTP and get your seat after they've been moved and all the hassle that creates or get to their destination on time while standing?''.
I find the seat Olympics have disappeared off TFW since reservations have stopped, find a seat, sit in it. No wondering up and down looking for yours after getting on the wrong end with piles of luggage, no going back to the carriage you left it in and then trying to get down to the seat when getting off, no squeezing past passengers in the aisle who are standing as they won't sit in a seat with a piece of paper stuck on it, no arguments with passengers after the person prior to you ripped the reservation out, no twenty different seats reserved on each leg of your split as you couldn't get the same one for all, no fighting with someone who has got on the wrong train and has reserved the earlier one, no single passengers managing to reserve a seat at a table and splitting up a group and then playing musical chairs to swap reservations or having to be part of the groups discussions as they shout down the train too each other.
If capacity matched demand, then reservations wouldn't be needed, or you could make compulsory reservations but with the knowledge the train will at 90 % of times have a seat for you.
It was probably the train I was on. The 14:00 (1E18) from Edinburgh to Kings X. It was rammed with standing in 1st Class as the 13.30 (1E17) had been cancelled (due to lack of driver), so there were 2 train load of passengers trying to fit into 1.
The Train Manager was good from Edinburgh to Newcastle in making sure people moved who were sat in reserved seats and announcing there seat reservations applied for passengers on the 14.00 there was also an attempt to run a 1st class service.
Unfortunately from Newcastle onwards, the staff changed and I never saw the Train Manager again. Chaos ensued. Conflicting sporadic messages were broadcast that reservations no longer applied, but were still shown on the seats and arguments started. Queue people doing exactly as the OP described, sitting in other peoples seats and refusing to move as they thought reservations no longer applied, but others who hadn't heard the message were trying to claim their reserved seats.
The train stopped at extra stops (the ones the 1.30 should have done). It was a total shambles with no staff on hand to help and tempers seemed to get worse the further the train went down to London.
Overall it was one of the worst train journeys I've ever had and I was one of the lucky ones to claim my reserved seat at Edinburgh.
The Train Manager was good from Edinburgh to Newcastle in making sure people moved who were sat in reserved seats and announcing there seat reservations applied for passengers on the 14.00 there was also an attempt to run a 1st class service.
Unfortunately from Newcastle onwards, the staff changed and I never saw the Train Manager again. Chaos ensued. Conflicting sporadic messages were broadcast that reservations no longer applied, but were still shown on the seats and arguments started. Queue people doing exactly as the OP described, sitting in other peoples seats and refusing to move as they thought reservations no longer applied, but others who hadn't heard the message were trying to claim their reserved seats.
The train stopped at extra stops (the ones the 1.30 should have done). It was a total shambles with no staff on hand to help and tempers seemed to get worse the further the train went down to London.
Overall it was one of the worst train journeys I've ever had and I was one of the lucky ones to claim my reserved seat at Edinburgh.
I was waiting for an LNER service on Friday and there was an announcement on the station that due to several replacement trains having to be brought into service the seat booking system wasn't working and you could sit where you wanted. Maybe that's something to do with it it?
Sounds like the sort of justice you’d get in China. No thanks.
Sitting in a seat shouldn’t be a police matter.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Personally I think it should carry a "base" Penalty Fare (i.e. just the £50, not the fare on top) in the event of the reserver asking for their seat showing their coupon and it not being freed up immediately (i.e. if staff have to intervene). Same with e.g. an unreserved bicycle where the reserver shows up.
WoodHillsian
Member
There's another problem with seat reservations which I encountered at Paddington 2 Saturdays ago. The Swansea train was announced as "Boarding" so passengers passed through the gates and began to board. I found a carriage where all the lights above the seats were green - no reservations. I sat down and relaxed - the train filled up, and just before departure a family arrived, and said to me and another person "You are in our seats" - and when we looked up, the seats now displayed "Reserved - Paddington - Swindon" - so they hadn't updated the on-train reservations before starting boarding. I was quick, and managed to find another seat, but by the time we left it was rammed, standing room only.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It would be a fairly easy software fix to make the system show the yellow LED and "seat may be reserved" until they have loaded, other than in the unreserved coach, and for that to be the default if nothing is set up. If they were to be disabled entirely this would need to be physically done by staff.
Class800
Established Member
Is stealing someone's seat different than stealing someone's handbag? Probably a matter of opinion
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Had things gone the way GNER wanted (I think it was them) prosecution would have been an option if on an Advance as they considered them invalid in any seat other than the booked one. The T&C I believe still say that but it isn't enforced other than by some slightly overzealous guards.
It’s not really a matter of opinion, one is theft and the other isn’t. For the avoidance of doubt, the sitting in a reserved seat isn’t theft. Nor should it ever be something the police are involved with unless it turns into a breach of the peace.
Class800
Established Member
I despair at the railways sometimes - not theft to sit in a seat that someone's ticket has reserved, what an awful approach. Not really that different to taking the ticket out of the person's hand. Anyway, no point going round in circles. Some people think it's OK to take someone else's seat - not very good citizens but then not everyone is.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Theft is a very specific thing. You have to take an item of property with the intent to permanently deprive of it (hence why TWOC - taking a motor vehicle without consent - is a specific offence - otherwise you just argue you were going to return it later and no offence has been committed). Software piracy, for instance, despite the blatherings of FAST* and the BSA*, isn't theft either, it's civil copyright infringement. Even though it's got a beak and quacks a bit like theft, it's actually not.
Occupying a reserved seat you didn't reserve is however a Byelaw offence, and I don't doubt that if other TOCs applied Merseyrail's zero tolerance approach there would be some prosecutions for it.
* Federation Against Software Theft/Business Software Alliance.
It could be; we don't know the situation, as the original poster hasn't clarified.
Seat reservations are only enforceable (to the limited extent they can be) if they are actually displayed. If nothing is displayed then anyone may occupy those seats
But if it's just a paper reservation note in the seat back, it can somehow become "un-displayed" just before the seat is occupied.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Generally speaking you can tell the difference between "nothing displayed" i.e. no labels there, or "someone's taken it out" i.e. labels there but not that one. At that point the member of staff can threaten the £200 penalty for removal and the miscreant will usually shift.
I had that experience at Paddington too- about a year ago- a Plymouth train. I suspect the incoming train was late? My recollection is of the coach being mis-labeled, or maybe unlabelled? Coach A- the quiet coach?? I forget the details- as you can tell- but recall clearly the chaos. Feeling for the crew; fully understanding the imperative of getting people home and reluctance of onboard crew to 'get involved'. I would have hoped (thought) the onboard messaging tech should have been 'weaponised'- cannot 'off-the-peg' messages be digitalised?
Often happens at Waverley on the WCML trains too - except that they don't appear until you are on the way to Carlisle. My contact who knows about these things said that they are supposed to be uploaded on the inward journey well before the turn-round.
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