I booked 2 1st class seats from York to Kings Cross. When the train arrived 2 men were sat in the said seats and refused to move. My daughter and I had to stand the whole journey. No help was given by rail staff, just a shoulder shrug. Does any one know the rules on LNER about this sort of situation.
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Booked seat not available on LNER as passengers wouldn't move
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gray1404
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Submit a complaint to LNER.
WesternLancer
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IMHO it should have been up to on a board staff to help you sit in / access the seats you had reserved (and / or find alternative seats for the other passengers) - or if that not possible at least refund the fare to the equiv standard class price.
Others on here - who are staff esp - may have other views if rules they work to do not require that.
But yes, submit a clear complaint to LNER about it
Haywain
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I’m afraid there’s really not much the staff can do if the people occupying your seats refuse to move.
WesternLancer
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I'm sure that is strictly speaking correct - but as a paying passenger I would expect the staff to at least ask the passengers in the seats concerned to move. Not to just shrug their shoulders.
D6130
Established Member
Depending on the stopping pattern of the train, can they not call ahead for BT Police to meet the train at the next stop, as the offenders must surely be in breach of railway bye-laws?
I mean they could but the BTP aren't going to be interested unless they're having an extremely quiet day!
Bletchleyite
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One option is to offer a free upgrade to 1st. Best done right in the face of the errant occupiers.
Ivor
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Can I ask why not? I’m asking as genuinely interested, I’ve worked on the railway but never on board, shouldn’t the OBS/Guard if nothing else have a ‘polite word?’ That scenario must be featured in their training?
I believe one guard who used to post here a number of years ago said that they had done as much in the past: "I'm terrible sorry but as you can see these passengers here are refusing to vacate your reserved seats and there's nothing I can do to force them. However I believe there are spare seats in 1st class, if you'd like to follow me we'll get you seated in there instead, I hope that's acceptable?" etc etc.
The value of that is reduced when the booked seats that aren't being vacated are in 1st.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
True, though there are more likely to be other seats there.
"If you'd like to accompany me to the cab I believe the driver has a spare seat in there"
But yes I do of course take your point!
Class800
Established Member
If the passengers didn't have 1st class tickets the guard could have taken action over a ticketing issue.
If they did, it's more discretionary - but if they are on an Advance, the terms say you must travel as per the itinerary - could this mean that technically if you're in the wrong seat and refuse to move if asked by the Guard, he or she could deem the passengers to be effectively ticketless?
If they did, it's more discretionary - but if they are on an Advance, the terms say you must travel as per the itinerary - could this mean that technically if you're in the wrong seat and refuse to move if asked by the Guard, he or she could deem the passengers to be effectively ticketless?
LNER have a seat guarantee scheme where you can get all of your money back. Did the guard endorse your ticket? Was there disruption on the day? It’s unusual for first class to be entirely rammed.
Our Seat Guarantee scheme | LNER
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Maybe in a fantasy dimension where the police are going to be bothered about that!
Let's hope that a full fare compensation will be given accordingly.LNER have a seat guarantee scheme where you can get all of your money back. Did the guard endorse your ticket? Was there disruption on the day? It’s unusual for first class to be entirely rammed.
Our Seat Guarantee scheme | LNER
www.lner.co.uk
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Maybe in a fantasy dimension where the police are going to be bothered about that!
If LNER refused to do so, an escalation to Rail Ombudsman or local press would be a good location.
It’s the fare, although the first two points on that page are a bit vague I agree!
There is no "reservation fee", so it's very clear that the refund is of the fare.
OK. Last time I travelled (on GWR), there was a nominal (£1?) reservation fee.
As it happens, the train broke down as it left Paddington, and we were all decanted onto an adjacent train.
There was obviously no time to move all the seatback reservation cards to this replacement, and I got into an argument with a group who wouldn't accept that my Coach/Seat reservation still applied.
ChewChewTrain
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Would I be right in thinking that the vast majority of railway byelaws are extremely rarely enforced, if they ever have been? For example, has anyone ever been fined (or even threatened with a fine) for refusing to keep right when standing on an escalator?
Admittedly, that would probably be OTT, but if that’s the case then what is the point in having all these byelaws at all?
At the very least the staff should take the action documented in the LNER Passenger's Charter. (my bold)
"If you’ve reserved a seat but it’s not available, our staff will try to find you another seat on the train. If none are available then we will compensate you for the inconvenience under our Seat Guarantee Scheme.
If you reserved a seat in First Class, but the only seat we can find you is in Standard, we will refund the diference between the First Class fare you paid and the equivalent Standard fare. If another seat can’t be found on the train, one of our onboard team will endorse your ticket or seat reservation coupon to allow you to make a claim. They will do the same if you reserved a seat in First Class, but the only seat we can find you is in Standard."
If you are saying staff cannot actually take such action, then the assertion that they "will" needs to be removed from the Charter.
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They could do the same as what they'd do with a passenger breaking Byelaw 18. Funny how these things only seem to be enforced when it suits the TOC...
Not sure about fined, but I saw a TV show about the BTP which showed people being refused travel, and in one case arrested (IIRC), for refusing to queue properly and trying to board the train before people have alighted.
Mostly because they give the right to remove people from the railway, using reasonable force if need be. But yes, most of the Byelaws may as well not exist.
The OP already held First Class tickets.
WesternLancer
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I think the OP had 1st class tickets anyway - and we do not know if the people sitting in their seats also had 1st class tickets, they may well have done - I doubt the OP would be able to find out one way or the other unless the passengers occupying the reserved seats voluntarily showed the OP their tickets.
Haywain
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Which is...?
WesternLancer
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Posts above are clear advice now on the action you should take - obtain a refund under the LNER seat guarantee scheme as per @AlterEgo very good post #16
John Palmer
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If notices were on display to indicate that the seats referred to in the OP had been reserved then at first glance the occupation of those seats by persons other than the reservation holders constituted an offence under Byelaw 19 of the Railway Byelaws, which contain ample powers for that Byelaw's enforcement, if the operator has the will to use them. Implicit in LNER's Seat Guarantee Scheme is an declaration that it lacks that will.
A potential difficulty arising from Byelaw 19's wording is that the requisite Notice must indicate “that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class.” Does this mean that the identity of the specified ticket holder must appear upon the Notice or does it suffice for such Notice merely to state that the associated seat has been reserved? And if the latter, then what purpose is served by the words “ for a specified ticket holder”?
A potential difficulty arising from Byelaw 19's wording is that the requisite Notice must indicate “that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class.” Does this mean that the identity of the specified ticket holder must appear upon the Notice or does it suffice for such Notice merely to state that the associated seat has been reserved? And if the latter, then what purpose is served by the words “ for a specified ticket holder”?
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