Harlequinuk
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Has anyone written a book on the Cross Country sleepers? Bristol to Glasgow ? London to Newcastle? etc?
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Book(s) on the Cross Country Sleeper Services?
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Hardly XC - where did you mean? There was a Bristol to Newcastle back in the day, attached to the Postal IIRC.
WesternLancer
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I’m not sure there are that many good books on sleeper services overall. Unsure about a particular route specific book.
Cheshire Scot
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Also Plymouth to Manchester - not sure but it may have also had a Liverpool portion.
Harlequinuk
On Moderation
Was thinking in general about sleepers, the ones above are examples.
The London to Newcastle was part of `The Night Scotsman` which continued on the Edinburgh, all on the ECML of course.
The London to Newcastle was part of `The Night Scotsman` which continued on the Edinburgh, all on the ECML of course.
nanstallon
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I found the Plymouth to Glasgow sleeper very handy - and also well used - until it was taken off about 1995.
Cheshire Scot
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London to Newcastle was not part of the Night Scotsman, it was a separate train.
Harlequinuk
On Moderation
Source : https://www.classicmagazines.co.uk/single-issue/RE/201203 - May 1982 sleepers
A huge amount more sleepers than in 2025
WesternLancer
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A useful
List there. Thanks for posting it
Pyewipecarshed
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Not really relevant to the route, but probably the best book on sleeper services is "Night Trains" by Andrew Martin
WesternLancer
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That’s true. It’s a good book. Well worth reading.
But not a history of the uk routes as you say.
Cheshire Scot
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Missing from that list is 01.00 Kings Cross Newcastle
Note d is also incorrect so possubly other errors on the list too.
But ceratinly correct to say a huge amount more sleepers than in 2025
Harlequinuk
On Moderation
Maybe post your cited list? I cited my source
Cheshire Scot
Established Member
Through the 1970s and up to and including 1981 there was 01.00 Kings cross - Newcastle and 22.55 Newcastle Kings Cross - source various timetables. The Night Scotsman was Edinburgh only.
In 1982 (the year quoted on the list) there is no trace of the Newcastle trains (my error for that year only) but the Night Scotsman did not convey any Newcastle Sleeping cars, formed of 10 sleeping cars for Edinburgh plus vans, source 1982 ECML pasenger train marshalling book. It is possible passengers may have been able to alight from the Night Scotsman at Newcastle - I do not have access to a timetable to check this - but at 04.xx not very attractive!
The list from your source makes no mention of Newcastle under the Night Scotsman entries.
I am not sure there is any benefit in debating fine detail, particularly as several errors are evident in the list for 1982.
Like many forum members I traveled on many of the sleepers around the country in the 1970s and 1980s, a glorious era for sleeper travel.
In 1982 (the year quoted on the list) there is no trace of the Newcastle trains (my error for that year only) but the Night Scotsman did not convey any Newcastle Sleeping cars, formed of 10 sleeping cars for Edinburgh plus vans, source 1982 ECML pasenger train marshalling book. It is possible passengers may have been able to alight from the Night Scotsman at Newcastle - I do not have access to a timetable to check this - but at 04.xx not very attractive!
The list from your source makes no mention of Newcastle under the Night Scotsman entries.
I am not sure there is any benefit in debating fine detail, particularly as several errors are evident in the list for 1982.
Like many forum members I traveled on many of the sleepers around the country in the 1970s and 1980s, a glorious era for sleeper travel.
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hexagon789
Veteran Member
There's an 0155 King's Cross to Edinburgh sleeper with a Newcastle call in the 1982 GBTT. Until 2nd October, it also had a portion "via Coast".
Sir Felix Pole
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No Liverpool portion but ran via the North & West (aka Marches) line as with the daytime services. SC attached / detached at Plymouth - train to and from Penzance.
Cheshire Scot
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Thank you.
Manchester to Glasgow was another which ran until the late 60s, with a portion from Liverpool also incuding sleepers, and a seated portion Manchester to Edinburgh.
Glasgow to Nottimngham ran until the late 70's with seated coaches and sleepers - in earlier years it had run to St Pancras and for a short spell Euston via Nottingham.
Plus there were lots of other overnight trains which did not have sleepers such as Colchester to Glasgow Queen St and Glasgow to Oban (connected with early morning ferries)
Those two cars were mainly for intermediate stations beyond NCL - the 2xSK indicate that it ran as an ordinary train on that section (I didn't remember it being 2nd class only).
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
My memory of using it Crewe-Bristol was it had a Glasgow portion, combined with the Manchester portion at Crewe, running via the Severn Tunnel.
Like other Marches North West - South West services it was diverted via Birmingham in c1970, becoming recognisably a Cross Country sleeper service.
Then there was the Paddington-Oxford-Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Chester-Birkenhead sleeper service (informally "The Zulu"), which was axed in 1967.
OVS Flatbottom
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BTW how long did it last afterwards? It seems to have been gone by 1973 (I believe the Birmingham - Scotland and Bristol - Newcastle sleepers were still running in that year, but were replaced by Bristol - Scotland before the end of the year; Manchester/Liverpool - Scotland also seems to have gone before then).
I've read (probably somewhere here) that it lingered on briefly as a Paddington-Shrewsbury service after Woodside closed.
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Agree. The only technically XC sleeper that I remember was the poertion of the Glasgow sleeper which ran to Poole attached to the day coaches, and I don't think that ran for very long. In connection with that I rememebr some riot with the stock of rthe train which I belive ended up stabled at Wareham. The Regional Control set up a special ECS using a Beascot crew and a class 31/4 to run light to Wareham and move the stock back to the LMR. The driver was ex Salisbury Robin Coles and he took a a Trainman G with him to couple and brake test the stock.
I did travel on a number of sleeper services back in the early 1980s, but always in Mk1 sleeping cars. Never rodes a Mk3
Euston - Stranraer 474xx with 20114 as the pilot from Kilmarnock
Padington - Penzance. 47082 Paddington-Plymouth for 50024 forward
Glasgow Quuen St - Fort William 37184+Ethel
Inverness - Edinburgh / Glasgow 47117 to Stirling for 26008 to Edinburgh
Bristol - Glasgow numerous times
Sunderland - King Cross 474xx to Darlington for 55018 forward
Kings Cross - Aberdeen from Newcastle 474xx
Never did the Euston - Manchester / Liverpool "splitter" or the Euston - Barrow. Did the sleeping cars at Peston get attached to an Up Euston ?
Sir Felix Pole
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According to the WR timetables I have, Plymouth to Manchester SC ceased in May '70 - it did not make the transfer from the Severn Tunnel to run via Birmingham as with the daytime services. In May '72 the full XC timetable centred on Birmingham (including the South Coast etc) was introduced which may have led to the confusion.
Bristol to Newcastle ceased in May '73 replaced by Bristol to Glasgow / Edinburgh.
Cheshire Scot
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Yes, the up Barrow sleeper. just one sleeping car to/from Preston (two to/fro, Barrow).
Gone before 1970.
Egg Centric
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Some of these journeys sound remarkably slow. Did they crawl along at 50 if they were making good time, or did they e.g. stop in sidings somewhere for a while?
Iskra
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Doesn’t even mention the Thames-Clyde sleeper services properly, let alone English sleepers…
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Presumably a lot of shunting was involved for detaching sleeper and mail/parcels carriages at the various stops along the route.
Harlequinuk
On Moderation
Alot of memories! Do we have any published authors , considering a new project?
Fleetwood Boy
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Even today sleepers dawdle along, timed to proceed sedately to give a comfortable ride. Compare a journey time of nearly 8 hours from London to Glasgow with even a good old non-tilting class 87 which could do the same journey in 5.
Generally northbound if there’s no delays en route you have to sit for a long stop between Carstairs and Glasgow (frustrating when I just want to get home, but otherwise there’s no platform at Central) and in the other direction I’ve been an hour early into Euston despite a detour via Birmingham and Northampton.
Generally northbound if there’s no delays en route you have to sit for a long stop between Carstairs and Glasgow (frustrating when I just want to get home, but otherwise there’s no platform at Central) and in the other direction I’ve been an hour early into Euston despite a detour via Birmingham and Northampton.
Does anyone have any more info about sleepers at Poole?
I used the Cross Country day services to/from Poole extensively in the 80s and 90s and was very disappointed when they were all truncated at Bournemouth. I’d love to know more about what sleepers existed in prior decades.
Helvellyn
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Given the often stated fact that one of the reasons the Plymouth-Edinburgh service lasted so long was Royal Navy traffic between Plymouth and Rosyth it's always intrigued me the service to Poole didn't actually run to Portsmouth instead to tap into similar traffic. Can only presume it was viewed as easier to route any Navy personnel needing overnight travel via London.
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