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Bombardier
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Manchester77
Established Member
The impression I've got is that stuff from Derby can be a bit shoddy but is still a quality product
Up in manchester we get our new bombardier trams from Vienna and are quite good
Up in manchester we get our new bombardier trams from Vienna and are quite good
My impression is they don't serve as tasty snacks as the other manufacturers for press launches! Railway journos don't like them and the sheep follow.
All manufacturers of trains for the UK market have had their problems and produced some shoddy stuff (possibly excluding Hitatchi) but certain people like to conveniently forget about some of Alstom's and Siemens's problems and highlight Bombardier's.
All manufacturers of trains for the UK market have had their problems and produced some shoddy stuff (possibly excluding Hitatchi) but certain people like to conveniently forget about some of Alstom's and Siemens's problems and highlight Bombardier's.
Is your question what are some of the problems experienced by Alstom and Siemens?
Alstom - everything they have produced for the UK.
175s were awful until they had significant work on them. SWT almost returned the whole 458 fleet to the ROSCO, though they also have had significant work on them and are now exceptionally reliable. 390s were late and unreliable. 334s were late and unreliable. 180s were and still are very unreliable.
Siemens - 350s were late, 380s were late, bits fell off them and ScotRail refused to accept them and their initial reliability was very poor.
Alstom - everything they have produced for the UK.
175s were awful until they had significant work on them. SWT almost returned the whole 458 fleet to the ROSCO, though they also have had significant work on them and are now exceptionally reliable. 390s were late and unreliable. 334s were late and unreliable. 180s were and still are very unreliable.
Siemens - 350s were late, 380s were late, bits fell off them and ScotRail refused to accept them and their initial reliability was very poor.
Eagle
Established Member
You forgot 460s. :P
However, both of those companies seem to have accepted that their trains have had issues and are prepared to work on them - Alstom has recently brought one of their most experienced managers back over here to sort out any UK Issues, and from the work on the Pendolinos & Junipers, seems to be working very well. Whilst Siemens on the other hand seem very good at getting on with the job in hand, supplying rolling stock with their own depots and increasing the reliability very well. Bombardier on the other hand doesn't seem to particularly show much effort / care & attention towards the UK Market until someone such as LUL is prepared to go raise it in such a way (especially when it's affecting their service). All new rolling stock will have it's faults and niggles, but Bombardier seem to be taking on the role that Alstom once had 10 or so years ago.
My opinion of Bombardier rolling stock, poorer quality rolling stock compared to what's available / offer from other rolling stock producers (Siemens, Alstom, Rotem & CAF), with some designs which i would say are becoming rather outdated (well, they were inherited from ABB/BREL). And then there's issues such as the exhaust problem on the delayed the 172s, the issues with the 09 stock on the vic line with the over sensitive door sensors, and the constant issues with the S Stock.
Im sure others will have comments on the quality of Bombardier's stock too.
Eagle
Established Member
Bombardier produced some of the most reliable and best-performing units in the country: the 22xs.
(But that wasn't in Derby so who cares :P)
(But that wasn't in Derby so who cares :P)
True, but then Siemens & Alstom also produces some of the best performing rolling stock in the country too. I would personally put the blame on Bombardiers UK Management - What Bombardier seems to produce over in Europe is impressive (Including the Croydon & Manchester Trams - a design based on the Cologne Tram), and reliable. But when you have cases such as Southern ordering more 377s, and Bombardier trying to sell them the more expensive (and less compatable) 379s, you do have to wonder.
starrymarkb
Established Member
I thought the 350s were late by 1 week by the time the order was complete (and that was due to pathing from Wildenwrath to the Tunnel) and were going straight into service within a couple of days of delivery...
I can't recall the exactly how late the 350s were but it wasn't 1 week. Silverlink resurrected the Cobbler trains with 90s - Northampton due to their late arrival.
Indeed, the ficticious exhaust problem. There never was an exhaust problem and the problem that did exist with the early 172s was later identified as contaminated fuel.
As for Bombardier trying to flog 379s instead of 377s, is that a fact or just something you read from a journo on the internet? As I initially said, there are some journos who seriously dislike Bombardier and one, who Siemens allowed to drive a 350 on their German test track, who can never find any fault whatsoever with Siemens - I wonder why.
Indeed, the ficticious exhaust problem. There never was an exhaust problem and the problem that did exist with the early 172s was later identified as contaminated fuel.
As for Bombardier trying to flog 379s instead of 377s, is that a fact or just something you read from a journo on the internet? As I initially said, there are some journos who seriously dislike Bombardier and one, who Siemens allowed to drive a 350 on their German test track, who can never find any fault whatsoever with Siemens - I wonder why.
Eagle
Established Member
Because they're all foreign. There is no British train manufacturing company.
Bombardier Transportation are German (although the conglomerate is Canadian), they just happen to have a plant in the UK. Hitachi are going to build a plant here too, at Newton Aycliffe.
I wouldn't be so sure it's all that good. We can barely sustain one factory how we're going to sustain two will be interesting to see. Also worth bearing in mind that we're building this factory even though we've ordered less than the DfT said was the absolute minimum to make a UK factory worthwhile.
YorkshireBear
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Yes that is a valid point. However one thing that may help Newton Aycliffe over Derby.
Hitachi have no other factory in the area so it will be Hitachi's only one, bombaridier and siemens both have more factories in Europe.
Newton Aycliffe is a lot closer to a port to export continental gauge stock too.
Not saying that it will be a huge success neccesarily but it does have some benefits over derby.
bronzeonion
Member
Personally I quite like Bombardier trains, the modular design makes sense and the trains are very aesthetically pleasing (apart from the recent LU stock)
My personal favourites are the
Southeastern Class 375, excluding the /9's.
London Overground Class 378
Class 168/170's in general
London Midland Class 172
The build quality is not the best in the world I can admit that but in general their trains are more comfortable and nicer to travel in.
My personal favourites are the
Southeastern Class 375, excluding the /9's.
London Overground Class 378
Class 168/170's in general
London Midland Class 172
The build quality is not the best in the world I can admit that but in general their trains are more comfortable and nicer to travel in.
Which of course means that it could be Derby that ends up closing. My point was just a general one that if we can barely sustain one plant how on earth are we going sustain two? The likelihood it seems to me is that one of them is going to end up closing its doors.
The only way I can see us keeping both is if Bombardier wins Crossrail (though it might be more logical for Siemens to get this) and Hitachi win both additional IEP orders and some export orders into Europe. Not impossible but by no means guaranteed and of course that only really secures their future out to around 2020.
bronzeonion
Member
I think Bombardier will get Crossrail because of the bad press the rail industry got because of the Thameslink saga. I'm not a fan of Siemens anyway :P
/1s were well over 6 months late - but that was a result of DfT/SRA whatever it was then faff. The delivery schedule completed quicker than expected.
/2s finished 8 weeks ahead of schedule. Their initial reliability was shocking though.
MCR247
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But it did then improve and they became one of the most reliable EMUs didn't they? I seem to remember reading that in a magazine
It would be utterly bonkers for Siemens not to get Crossrail now. The signalling packages were awarded to the Siemens consortium last week. The consortium that's doing the signalling for Thameslink... Put 2 and 2 together and let's have some efficiency!
Which of course means it will go to someone like CAF
Totally agree though, it seems totally logical for Siemens to provide the Crossrail fleet what with them having supplied the Thameslink fleet and the signalling.
D365
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Which of course means it will go to someone like CAF
This may seem a bit dumb, but would communication between the Siemens Mobility rolling stock and signalling departments be any better than, say, Siemens signalling and Bombardier rolling stock?
Also, could somebody remind me of the problems with the thirty or so first S8s are and the causes? I recall something about signalling and a late change to Bombardier...
Oh, this thread is interesting, certainly nice to know what is really going in train manufacturing.
What was the late change to the S8s? I also quite the Meridian trains, and even the Voyagers, but I never look under the surface of one so don't know the exact build quality.
What was the late change to the S8s? I also quite the Meridian trains, and even the Voyagers, but I never look under the surface of one so don't know the exact build quality.
Well the Voyagers are amongst the most reliable trains in the country so I'd suggest the build quality is probably pretty reasonable (though they aren't a product of Derby).
I pearsonally think that the problems with bombardier are a top down thing. Since derby has no UIC guage link to the channel it can only make UK guage trains, reducing the market they can deliver to cost effectively. Because of that the long term plan may be to close derby down, hence they dont care about trying to make more 379's and competing for tenders with bespoke(ish) trains, jsut taking the closest star.
I would hope that if derby where to close down, the government would look at funding some sort or BREL thing again, albeit on a smaller scale. Or maybe they could be bought out by the other derby based british engineering firm, that is part owned by the government, Rolls Royce
[/conspiriacy mode]
I would hope that if derby where to close down, the government would look at funding some sort or BREL thing again, albeit on a smaller scale. Or maybe they could be bought out by the other derby based british engineering firm, that is part owned by the government, Rolls Royce
[/conspiriacy mode]
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