Bombardier Derby at "30 year high"

[Domh245]

158/159 are the last Mark 3 derived stock

I've never seen that suggested before

 

[Richard Scott]

I've never seen that suggested before

Thought 158/159 were aluminium too so unlikely to be derived from mark 3.

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't expect the order book for CAF, Hitachi or Bombardier to calm down any time soon. It will not be too long before pretty much all Mk3-based stock is life expired (some of the earliest stuff already meeting the cutter's torch).

But almost all of it is already spoken for - the 455/456s are being replaced by 701s, the 317/321s are being replaced by 710/720s, the 319s have been replaced by the 700s and latterly 331/323s. Only the smaller 318/320 fleets are left and of course the 150s. Realistically, in my view, the 150s, 153s, 155s and 156s up north could do with being replaced in one big lot to get some commonality to the area. Ordinarily speaking it'd be preferable to have a bi-mode equivalent of the 195 but given how the 195/331 fleets have turned out and the fact that other bimode options are readily available, perhaps not.

Arguably pretty much every pre-privatisation DMU is already beyond its originally intended service life but I do think it might be a bit of a stretch to replace the 158s and 159s just yet given how much better the travelling experience is with them compared to what came before, plus the recent downturn in the economy and indeed demand probably means they ought to have a few extra years' grace, but then of course the argument for a common replacement fleet is weaker.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Isn't that just the UK arm?
The wider business (strategy, investment, employment levels etc) is managed from Berlin, where their largest plants are based.

The 2018 accounts include a list of all the companies that Bombardier Transportation (Global Holding) UK Ltd wholly or partly owns, which appears to be all Bombardier Transportation subsidiaries around the world. As you say, the business is managed from Berlin.

 

[DorkingMain]

But almost all of it is already spoken for - the 455/456s are being replaced by 701s, the 317/321s are being replaced by 710/720s, the 319s have been replaced by the 700s and latterly 331/323s. Only the smaller 318/320 fleets are left and of course the 150s. Realistically, in my view, the 150s, 153s, 155s and 156s up north could do with being replaced in one big lot to get some commonality to the area. Ordinarily speaking it'd be preferable to have a bi-mode equivalent of the 195 but given how the 195/331 fleets have turned out and the fact that other bimode options are readily available, perhaps not.

Arguably pretty much every pre-privatisation DMU is already beyond its originally intended service life but I do think it might be a bit of a stretch to replace the 158s and 159s just yet given how much better the travelling experience is with them compared to what came before, plus the recent downturn in the economy and indeed demand probably means they ought to have a few extra years' grace, but then of course the argument for a common replacement fleet is weaker.

Well - there's also a larger number of 455s and a smaller number of 313s at Southern. The 318s and 320s at Scotrail as you mention. Huge numbers of 150s, as well as their sister units 153s / 155s / 156s with no replacement in sight. 769s are also going to be deployed as a stopgap in various places.

Then of course you can turn to the Networker family - significant number of 365s at GN, huge number of Turbos on Chiltern and GWR, 465 / 466 fleet at Southeastern.

The thing with BR replacing huge chunks of the fleet in the 80s and early 90s is that now all of that stock is becoming life expired (or probably doesn't reasonably have a service life beyond 15-20 more years).

 

[samuelmorris]

Well - there's also a larger number of 455s and a smaller number of 313s at Southern. The 318s and 320s at Scotrail as you mention. Huge numbers of 150s, as well as their sister units 153s / 155s / 156s with no replacement in sight. 769s are also going to be deployed as a stopgap in various places.

Then of course you can turn to the Networker family - significant number of 365s at GN, huge number of Turbos on Chiltern and GWR, 465 / 466 fleet at Southeastern.

The thing with BR replacing huge chunks of the fleet in the 80s and early 90s is that now all of that stock is becoming life expired (or probably doesn't reasonably have a service life beyond 15-20 more years).

True, I did forget about the Southern 455s, now the idea of them being displaced by 707s has been formally put to bed. With things as they are now I'm not convinced the Network family are going anywhere any time soon but I could be wrong about that.

 

[43096]

Know it's off topic but would think the 175/180 have a little in common with a mark 3 or are appearances deceptive?

Appearances are deceptive. The 175/180 is a product of Alstom, the Mark 3 derivative is part of what is (currently) Bombardier's heritage. For the ancestor to the 175/180 type you need to look at the Class 156 and Mark 4 stock - built by Metro-Cammell/GEC-Alsthom at the same factory as the 175/180s.

 

[supervc-10]

Some new diesel units for Chiltern would nicely cascade some 168s (and possibly 165s) in decent condition to a bunch of other routes, handily displacing a whole load of 15x. Ideally it would be alongside electrification of the Chiltern mainline, but perhaps that's wishful thinking.

I would feel that basically any stock that is currently not airconditioned with the exception of the metro Electostars are fair game for replacement, either by direct replacement or cascade.

Some new bi-mode Aventras replacing SWRs 159s could push some some 156s out for example.

There are plenty of opportunities out there for Derby, IMO, so long as they can make a reliable and cost-effective bi-mode or hybrid Aventra.

 

[samuelmorris]

Appearances are deceptive. The 175/180 is a product of Alstom, the Mark 3 derivative is part of what is (currently) Bombardier's heritage. For the ancestor to the 175/180 type you need to look at the Class 156 and Mark 4 stock - built by Metro-Cammell/GEC-Alsthom at the same factory as the 175/180s.

I wonder if they're looking at the windows inside - the window frames on 175s/180s do actually look remarkably similar to those on loco-hauled Mk3s.

 

[WilloughbyGC]

Isn't that just the UK arm?
The wider business (strategy, investment, employment levels etc) is managed from Berlin, where their largest plants are based.

Home

www.bombardier.com

Bombardier Transportation employs about 36000 people globally, 4000 of whom are in the UK.

Yes HQ is in Germany but UK and global companies are both tax domiciled in UK according to Companies House

 

[Richard Scott]

Appearances are deceptive. The 175/180 is a product of Alstom, the Mark 3 derivative is part of what is (currently) Bombardier's heritage. For the ancestor to the 175/180 type you need to look at sithe Class 156 and Mark 4 stock - built by Metro-Cammell/GEC-Alsthom at the same factory as the 175/180s.

Thanks for info, learn something new every day!

 

[Swanny200]

Some new diesel units for Chiltern would nicely cascade some 168s (and possibly 165s) in decent condition to a bunch of other routes, handily displacing a whole load of 15x. Ideally it would be alongside electrification of the Chiltern mainline, but perhaps that's wishful thinking.

I would feel that basically any stock that is currently not airconditioned with the exception of the metro Electostars are fair game for replacement, either by direct replacement or cascade.

Some new bi-mode Aventras replacing SWRs 159s could push some some 156s out for example.

There are plenty of opportunities out there for Derby, IMO, so long as they can make a reliable and cost-effective bi-mode or hybrid Aventra.

I know there was a cascade thread somewhere, 168's and 165's would serve GWR or even Scotrail well although I don't know if 165/8's would be cleared on Scottish routes if even considered. A Bi-Mode Aventra would be the way to go forward just now as I don't think Hydrogen is there yet and battery storage technology on some routes may be enough.

 

[supervc-10]

I personally don't think hydrogen will ever be a viable option for rail except some niche routes.

But if a bi-mode Aventra could be made in a 4 or 5 car variant then I think it would be an excellent option.