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Boeing v Airbus

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Scotrail314209

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It’s interesting to watch the battle being Boeing and Airbus continue.

Jet2 who have been predominantly Boeing have ditched them in favour of New A321Neos.

I wonder if the Max 8 groundings and delays with the 777X is still denting their rep?

Holiday giant Jet2.com has placed an initial order for 36 A321neos - making the airline a new Airbus customer.

The order reflects Jet2.com’s ambitious fleet expansion and renewal plans.


The Leeds based airline's current supplier up to now has been US giant Boeing with this deal a coup for the European planemaker
 
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Bletchleyite

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I suspect airlines just purchase whichever is cheaper (including in that assessment the additional costs posed by operating two types rather than one).
 

thejuggler

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It will always be down to total cost of operating the different aircraft types being considered.

321 Neo also has more passenger capacity than the current 737 max offerings.
 

YorkshireBear

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Jet2 have been really happy with their sole A321 from what I understand. They need something to replace the 757s too and I don't think the MAX quite cuts it for any future transatlantic flights, which assuming some of these A321s are delivered a along range, is easily achievable.
 

Bletchleyite

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Certainly as a passenger I prefer the A320 series over the B737 series, they are slightly wider (so you can have a wider seat or a wider aisle, both are good - and they don't have enough extra width that airlines can get tempted to squeeze an extra seat in) and much quieter. The B737 series is like a classic Land Rover Defender - it might well only be a few years old, but it's from a design that's well out of date. Or you could say a classic, but a classic isn't a selling point for a modern airline, otherwise there'd be prop planes all over the place.

Boeing really need to bin the 737 range and create a new narrowbody based on the 787. That would knock Airbus into a cocked hat. I feel so much better after a 787 flight due to the higher cabin pressure and humidity the composite structure allows for, and the big windows are lovely, almost like a train (indeed I think they're as high as Pendolino windows).
 

Scotrail314209

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Good points there, more and more airlines seem to be turning to the A321NEO for transatlantic flights, look at JetBlue and Aer Lingus.

I definitely think Boeing need to up their game since Airbus have had two major wins with the A321Neo/XLR and Airbus A350.
 

Skymonster

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Boeing 737s will be in Jet2’s fleet for quite some time to come. The airline has around 75 -800s, some of which are less than three years old and were some of the last of the marque off the production line. However, it does have to replace the 757-200s (eight) in the not too distant future, and some of its second-hand 737-800s are also more than 20 years old. So 36 firm 321 orders doesn’t actually represent turning over even half the fleet, although taking up the extra 24 options will bring the day when it becomes an all-Airbus operator a bit closer.

The A321neo will move a few more passengers a bit further than the 737MAX-10, and crucially will do it from shorter runways on warm days, which can be very important to a holiday airline operating into the Med. The Airbus also has true transatlantic capability whereas the Boeing is on the edge of the performance envelope (not that this is a big part of Jet2’s operation at present though).

Meanwhile, Airbus also knows what its doing and Jet2 would have been seen as a big prize, especially as in the longer term the airline might want to revert to a common fleet again. With the potential for discounts of circa 50% off the sticker price possible - and Jet2 having experiences the performance of the A321 in the real world - there was obviously a deal to be done as far as both sides were concerned, even if it meant split fleets (split flight deck crews, spares, engineers, training etc.)
 
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Meglos

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The A321neo will move a few more passengers a bit further than the 737MAX-10, and crucially will do it from shorter runways on warm days, which can be very important to a holiday airline operating into the Med. The Airbus also has true transatlantic capability whereas the Boeing is on the edge of the performance envelope (not that this is a big part of Jet2’s operation at present though).
Jet2 were reported to be looking at the 737 MAX-10, but the earliest it will be certified is 2023, and then the delivery slots for 737's are pretty chocka through 2025. By ordering the A321NEO - which is in my opinion a superior offering - Jet2 are pretty much guarenteed to get deliveries in 2023, whereas going 737 MAX likely means 2024/25 for first deliveries.
 

Skymonster

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Jet2 were reported to be looking at the 737 MAX-10, but the earliest it will be certified is 2023, and then the delivery slots for 737's are pretty chocka through 2025. By ordering the A321NEO - which is in my opinion a superior offering - Jet2 are pretty much guarenteed to get deliveries in 2023, whereas going 737 MAX likely means 2024/25 for first deliveries.
As I said I believe the capacity, range and performance constraints of the 737MAX-10 are likely to have been a bigger impediment than delivery dates. Delivery of the 36 A321neo aircraft to Jet2 is planned for five years to 2028.
 

Bald Rick

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Good news for Airbus this week; they have won big orders from Qantas and Air France KLM for A320neo family aircraft. These airlines currently have mostly Boeing aircraft in their narrow body fleet, so it is a significant step.
 

LOL The Irony

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Boeing really need to bin the 737 range and create a new narrowbody based on the 787.
They were going to as part of the Yellowstone project (Yellowstone 1 was its name). However, McDonnell Boeing completely botched the 787 (Yellowstone 2) project and then Airbus announced the A320neo. You have to wonder why they didn't just re-engine the 757 and shorten as required instead.
 

TheEdge

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The A321LR/XLR have really been a big win for Airbus and really make the A32x NEO family so much more useful to airlines than the 737MAX family and thats being played out by a growing order book.

Also I think the crashes are going to be a real issue for passenger confidence for the MAX, the DC10 suffered its poor reputation for its entire life thanks to the cargo door incidents.
 

Giugiaro

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Indeed. Had Boeing not distracted itself with the development of the A320neo, they would have had a similarly sized plane developed from scratch that would beat the neo in a way Airbus couldn't respond to.

Airbus took advantage of the fact that it had a much newer air frame to work with, while Boeing had an already 50 year old design that they had already re-engineered twice.

Boeing decided it was best to milk the short-legged bird just one more time until both companies eventually agreed that both had to design a brand new air frame for the impending age of energy transition.
 
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LOL The Irony

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Also I think the crashes are going to be a real issue for passenger confidence for the MAX, the DC10 suffered its poor reputation for its entire life thanks to the cargo door incidents.
Guess who merged with and ruined Boeing.
Indeed. Had Boeing not distracted itself with the development of the A320neo, they would have had similarly sized plane developed from scratch that would beat the neo in a way Airbus couldn't respond to.
Well Boeing could've chosen pain today, gain tomorrow, but chose a quick profit.
 

JonasB

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You have to wonder why they didn't just re-engine the 757 and shorten as required instead.

Probably because the 757 is a larger and heavier aircraft, a 727-200 is roughly 10 tons (≈20%) heavier than and A321 when empty. So it would have been much harder to recieve a fuel economy that can compete with the A321neo. Also, when Airbus announced the neo, the 757 had been out of production for 6 years.
 

LOL The Irony

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Probably because the 757 is a larger and heavier aircraft, a 727-200 is roughly 10 tons (≈20%) heavier than and A321 when empty. So it would have been much harder to recieve a fuel economy that can compete with the A321neo. Also, when Airbus announced the neo, the 757 had been out of production for 6 years.
A 757-200 can also fly farther than an A321neo. And the 757 uses the same airframe as the 737, so restarting and moving production to Renton wouldn't have been difficult.
 

Western Lord

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A 757-200 can also fly farther than an A321neo. And the 757 uses the same airframe as the 737, so restarting and moving production to Renton wouldn't have been difficult.
The 757 did not use "the same airframe as the 737". Although the fuselage was the same, originally 707 based, cross section as the 727 and 737, the cockpit, tail surfaces, wings and landing gear are entirely different to the 737.
 

TheEdge

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And the 757 uses the same airframe as the 737, so restarting and moving production to Renton wouldn't have been difficult.

No, it really really doesn't, Airbus have turned that into an art and Boeing just really haven't and the airlines have embraced it.

A pilot with an A320 type rating can fly everything from an A318 through to an A321XLR and an A330 rating can also fly A350s. So most airlines with a purely Airbus fleet only need their pilots to hold two ratings.

Meanwhile at Boeing the 737, 757 and 777 all need different ratings. And one of the issues with the MAX was the bodging of its flight physics to keep it covered by the existing 737 rating.
 
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Meglos

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The 757 was also an expensive dog to manufacture. Analysts at the time reckoned the manpower cost to build one was greater than that for the widebody 767.
 

TravelDream

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What a few people above seem to forget is that the two manufacturers, like most businesses, are run by accountants.
Low-cost and low-risk is inevitable in such a situation.

In the last 30 years, Boeing has commercially launched one all-new aircraft, the 787 in 2003. Airbus has launched two, the A380 in 2000 and A350 in 2005/2006*.
*The A350 initial launch was for a beefed up A330 with a new wing and engines which received a pretty poor reception from potential customer so Airbus went on to reformulate their concept and relaunch the following year.

Everything else has been a development of an existing product.

A 757-200 can also fly farther than an A321neo. And the 757 uses the same airframe as the 737, so restarting and moving production to Renton wouldn't have been difficult.

This isn't true (with a huge proviso).
The Boeing quoted range for the 757-200 is 3,915nm. The Airbus quoted range for the A321XLR is 4,700nm. A significant increase.
The huge proviso being that manufacturer quoted range is not close to the real operation range. The manufacturer's range is based on a very lightly loaded aircraft (a light seating configuration and little to no cargo) in ideal wind conditions. It's like car manufacturer's range/ fuel consumption numbers.
The longest A321 flight currently operating is longer than the longest 757 flight.

It's already been answered above, but the 757 doesn't share an airframe with the 737. They have the same dimensions. Every Boeing narrow-body jet* has been based on the dimensions of the 707, but were not closely related otherwise. The 757 was developed alongside the widebody 767 and the two shared many components and systems.
*The 717 was a McDonnell Douglas jet rebadged after they merged.

A pilot with an A320 type rating can fly everything from an A318 through to an A321XLR and an A330 rating can also fly A350s. So most airlines with a purely Airbus fleet only need their pilots to hold two ratings.

Meanwhile at Boeing the 737, 757 and 777 all need different ratings. And one of the issues with the MAX was the bodging of its flight physics to keep it covered by the existing 737 rating.

This is a gross simplification and, in many respects, incorrect.

Of operational in-production commercial aircraft, Boeing has two (+2) type ratings and Airbus has two (+2) type ratings.
The Airbus type ratings are the A320 family rating and the A330/A340/A350 rating. The +2 are the A220 family which was developed by Bombardier and the programme then bought by Airbus as Bombardier collapsed and the A380 family which is soon to end production.
The Boeing type ratings are the 737 family rating and the 777/787 rating. The +2 are the 757/767 (the 767 is still in production) rating and the soon to end production 747-8 rating.

Someone with an A330 rating may not necessarily be allowed to fly an A340 or A350 despite them being the same rating as they would be required to undertake differences/ familiarisation training and, likely, some addition sim work as required by their authority.

Someone with an 737 rating might not (will not in reality) be able to fly all 737 versions. Generally, the rating will cover one or several of the families within the family (the MAX, NG, Classic etc. families). When the MAX was introduced, pilots had to do a a very short differences course before flying it. Boeing did everything it could to limit the length and difficulty of that course to limit implementation cost and difficulty for airlines. Now we know that didn't work out too well, but Boeing's plan would be no different to Airbus' or any other manufacturer.

The 757 was also an expensive dog to manufacture. Analysts at the time reckoned the manpower cost to build one was greater than that for the widebody 767.

Do you have a source for this?
The 757 and 767 were built on the same production line and shared many of the same components. I can not imagine it would have cost more than the 767 to manufacture.
 

TheEdge

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This is a gross simplification and, in many respects, incorrect.

Of operational in-production commercial aircraft, Boeing has two (+2) type ratings and Airbus has two (+2) type ratings.
The Airbus type ratings are the A320 family rating and the A330/A340/A350 rating. The +2 are the A220 family which was developed by Bombardier and the programme then bought by Airbus as Bombardier collapsed and the A380 family which is soon to end production.
The Boeing type ratings are the 737 family rating and the 777/787 rating. The +2 are the 757/767 (the 767 is still in production) rating and the soon to end production 747-8 rating.

Yes it was simplified but the point I was making is that Airbus have made it an absolute art form of everything being common when compared to Boeing. Are there any other examples where a single type rating gives an airline access to everything from regional jet size all the way to actual usable Trans-Atlantic capabilities? For an airline to use only Boeing aircraft and have like for like with an Airbus fleet you'd practically need to be flying 737 and 757s.
 

Giugiaro

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A 757-200 can also fly farther than an A321neo. And the 757 uses the same airframe as the 737, so restarting and moving production to Renton wouldn't have been difficult.

As said, air frame isn't the same between the two. Fuselage is, but not everything else.

The closest case would be the A300 with its A310, A330 and A340 variants. All of them have similar fuselage, cab, tail and vertical stabiliser; while landing gear, wings and wing-to-fuselage transition all differ, among other things.

In fact, the A330, technically, is the oldest bird Airbus has in its fleet. In this regard, the B777 is a much newer design, and it's noticeable that Boeing is taking full advantage of it.
This makes me wonder... since the A330 got its neo re-engineering, is it at the end of its lifecycle?
 

TravelDream

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Yes it was simplified but the point I was making is that Airbus have made it an absolute art form of everything being common when compared to Boeing. Are there any other examples where a single type rating gives an airline access to everything from regional jet size all the way to actual usable Trans-Atlantic capabilities?
No Airbus type-rating goes from 'regional jet size' to transatlantic.
The only Airbus 'regional' jet is the A220 and that is very large by regional jet standards.
The A318 is dead. Whilst there is an A319NEO, it has 70 out of the almost 8000 orders for the A320NEO family. Dead in all but name outside of the corporate jet market.
If you are counting the A320NEO as regional (which it definitely isn't), then the comparably sized 737-8 MAX is also transatlantic capable.

I think you are over-blowing type-rating commonality. Both an all-Airbus and all-Boeing airline could easily operate long and short-haul routes with two type ratings.


This makes me wonder... since the A330 got its neo re-engineering, is it at the end of its lifecycle?
I think the sales figures speak for themselves. The A330NEO has been pretty poorly received by airlines.

Don't forget that the original A330 is nothing like the non-NEO A330s currently coming off the line in terms of efficiency, payload or range. The aircraft and its engines have been continually developed and the two birds are very different.

I'm sure all the crew will be happy as it's a much nicer aircraft to operate.

Boeings and Airbuses are very different aircraft to fly from a pilot's perspective. My experience is people who have flown Boeing for a long time prefer Boeing and people who fly Airbus aircraft for a long time prefer Airbus.
 

Sawasdee

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Boeings and Airbuses are very different aircraft to fly from a pilot's perspective. My experience is people who have flown Boeing for a long time prefer Boeing and people who fly Airbus aircraft for a long time prefer Airbus.

Probably right. For cabin crew though, it seemed everyone wanted to be trained on the airbus because it was a lot more crew-friendly.
 

TheEdge

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No Airbus type-rating goes from 'regional jet size' to transatlantic.
The only Airbus 'regional' jet is the A220 and that is very large by regional jet standards.
The A318 is dead. Whilst there is an A319NEO, it has 70 out of the almost 8000 orders for the A320NEO family. Dead in all but name outside of the corporate jet market.
If you are counting the A320NEO as regional (which it definitely isn't), then the comparably sized 737-8 MAX is also transatlantic capable.

I was being theoretical and making the point the A320 family as a whole can do a whole lot more across the family than the 737. The MAX may be capable but its the 321XLR that's starting to see use in that market.

I think the sales figures speak for themselves. The A330NEO has been pretty poorly received by airlines.

Don't forget that the original A330 is nothing like the non-NEO A330s currently coming off the line in terms of efficiency, payload or range. The aircraft and its engines have been continually developed and the two birds are very different.

I do wonder why Airbus have carried on offering the A330NEO when they are pumping out A350s. The A330/340 family has never been all that popular with the 777 and 767 totally cornering that large two jet market so it all seems a bit redundant.
 

TravelDream

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I do wonder why Airbus have carried on offering the A330NEO when they are pumping out A350s. The A330/340 family has never been all that popular with the 777 and 767 totally cornering that large two jet market so it all seems a bit redundant.

The A330 has been a hugely successful plane for Airbus. Over 1,500 have been built far exceeding expectations when the aircraft was launched (and greater than the 1,200 767s).
On why they haven't cancelled the A330NEO, it's a fair bit lighter and a bit cheaper than the A350. The core efficiency gain vs. the older variant are the engines which Rolls-Royce have already developed. There will be a huge load of contractual difficulties for Airbus to do so. 350 sales isn't too bad either given it's built on the same line as the original A330.

To be fair to the A340, it launched before the 777 which became quite the game-changer in terms of twin long-haul operations.

It is now reasonable to ask if Airbus is the top-dog in the long-haul market after Boeing's long multi-decade lead. Boeing's sales record with the 777X has not been particularly good (320 orders) and Airbus seems to have better found the right-sized aircraft the market wants unlike in the previous generation.
 

Giugiaro

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To be fair to the A340, it launched before the 777 which became quite the game-changer in terms of twin long-haul operations.

The A340 is no more than an A330 before ETOPS was further extended.

As soon as the A330neo got the range and ETOPS certification that everyone wanted, they quickly phased out the A340 from the skies.
TAP Air Portugal was well known for using their A340's on their Transatlantic crossings. So much so that they even became the launch carrier of the A330neo, as TAP was ever longing to get rid of the four engine gaz-guzzler in favour of its twin-engine, more sensible version.

In TAP's case, given their small market, the A321neo LR and XLR are at the top of the carrier's wish list.
Had they been developed first than the A330neo, maybe the later wouldn't even have been bought at all.
 

Butts

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It's a shame Embraer don't enter this Market.

If they could make as good a product as the E-190 on a larger scale things could get interesting.

The E-190 is the best available commercial short -haul aircraft from my experience.
 
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