Boarding Train without ticket.

[dcbwhaley]

I am well aware that it a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket if there are facilities to buy a ticket at the station. But what is the situation if you cannot make use of those facilities?

Two instances bother me.
1) When there is a "plastic" only ticket vending machine but you do not have a card with you or the card will not read.
2) You arrive at the ticket office five minutes before the train is due but there is a long queue or an awkward customer in front of you, so you would miss your train if you waited to buy a ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

1) When there is a "plastic" only ticket vending machine but you do not have a card with you or the card will not read.

If you don't have a card that you can use (but instead have another acceptance payment method, such as cash, RTV etc.) then you can board the train and buy on board without any penalty. Some Penalty Fares schemes may require you to obtain a Permit to Travel (Northern appear to have invented their own entirely distinct and thoroughly confusing Promise to Pay system).

However, whilst failing to obtain a Permit to Travel where there were no facilities to buy a ticket with your chosen (valid) payment method may leave you civilly liable for a Penalty Fare (as in, you could theoretically be sued at County Court for the value of the Penalty Fare), it is unheard of for any TOC to pursue Penalty Fares in this way. Since you would not be committing a Byelaw or other offence (as long as you had bought a ticket at the first reasonable opportunity) then I don't think this could realistically be pursued in any way. (Or rather, in most cases it would be possible to fight it successfully).

2) You arrive at the ticket office five minutes before the train is due but there is a long queue or an awkward customer in front of you, so you would miss your train if you waited to buy a ticket.

I think views do vary - and particularly if you are waiting in the queue at the ticket office at an intermediate station along your journey, where you may miss a connection if you wait longer in the queue - but in general the rule is that it is about the theoretical and technical availability of facilities, not whether they were actually practicable to use. Boarding without a ticket where there was a long queue at the ticket office may leave you liable to a Penalty Fare in some circumstances, or it may see you in breach of Byelaw 18, however I don't think it could be construed as a more serious Regulation of Railways Act offence.

 

[najaB]

When there is a "plastic" only ticket vending machine but you do not have a card with you or the card will not read.

Cash at a card-only machine isn't an opportunity to purchase. Card not reading is less clear cut - if it's not reading any cards then it's not an opportunity, if it's just your card then that could be seen as being your problem, not the railway's.

 

[dcbwhaley]

If you don't have a card that you can use (but instead have another acceptance payment method, such as cash, RTV etc.) then you can board the train and buy on board without any penalty. Some Penalty Fares schemes may require you to obtain a Permit to Travel (Northern appear to have invented their own entirely distinct and thoroughly confusing Promise to Pay system).

However, whilst failing to obtain a Permit to Travel where there were no facilities to buy a ticket with your chosen (valid) payment method may leave you civilly liable for a Penalty Fare (as in, you could theoretically be sued at County Court for the value of the Penalty Fare), it is unheard of for any TOC to pursue Penalty Fares in this way. Since you would not be committing a Byelaw or other offence (as long as you had bought a ticket at the first reasonable opportunity) then I don't think this could realistically be pursued in any way. (Or rather, in most cases it would be possible to fight it successfully).


I think views do vary - and particularly if you are waiting in the queue at the ticket office at an intermediate station along your journey, where you may miss a connection if you wait longer in the queue - but in general the rule is that it is about the theoretical and technical availability of facilities, not whether they were actually practicable to use. Boarding without a ticket where there was a long queue at the ticket office may leave you liable to a Penalty Fare in some circumstances, or it may see you in breach of Byelaw 18, however I don't think it could be construed as a more serious Regulation of Railways Act offence.

The ticket office at Whaley Bridge Station opens at 0650. The first Manchester train leaves at 0651. It is a two minute walk over the bridge from the ticket office to the platform. Am I breaking the bye-law if I decide to catch the train rather than buy a ticket?

 

[The_Train]

The ticket office at Whaley Bridge Station opens at 0650. The first Manchester train leaves at 0651. It is a two minute walk over the bridge from the ticket office to the platform. Am I breaking the bye-law if I decide to catch the train rather than buy a ticket?

I'm no expert on the legalities of ticket purchasing but in my humble opinion surely you'd be entitled to purchase a ticket on the train in this case knowing otherwise you're relying on the train arriving/departing late for you to be able to get on it.

With regards to your 2nd point in your original post, I personally don't see turning up a few minutes before train is due to leave and then finding a queue at the ticket office as an excuse for not buying a ticket before boarding. For me, if you are planning to buy tickets on the day of your journey then you should allow a reasonable amount of time to do this and this includes the potential of being caught in a queue.

However, these points are simply my opinions. I will leave the legal side of things to those more in the know

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The ticket office at Whaley Bridge Station opens at 0650. The first Manchester train leaves at 0651. It is a two minute walk over the bridge from the ticket office to the platform. Am I breaking the bye-law if I decide to catch the train rather than buy a ticket?

You wouldn't be in breach of the Byelaw in my view - assuming there are no other ticket issuing facilities for the method of payment you intend to use. I think you could quite justifiably put forward that, given that train doors are supposed to regularly close 30 seconds prior to departure, it is not fair to assume that you can buy a ticket and get to the other platform in 30 seconds (assuming the ticket office opens bang on time). Hence there are no issuing facilities at that time, for the purposes of Byelaw 18(3)(i).

In my opinion, it is all somewhat of a moot point, as I believe that the actual Byelaw 18 itself could be challenged if it came to Court - on the basis that it is ultra vires. Of course, that is not a risk-free approach (though there is some considerable precedent which, in my view, backs it up), so I can understand that not everyone would want to proceed that way.

 

[dcbwhaley]

I'm no expert on the legalities of ticket purchasing but in my humble opinion surely you'd be entitled to purchase a ticket on the train in this case knowing otherwise you're relying on the train arriving/departing late for you to be able to get on it.

With regards to your 2nd point in your original post, I personally don't see turning up a few minutes before train is due to leave and then finding a queue at the ticket office as an excuse for not buying a ticket before boarding. For me, if you are planning to buy tickets on the day of your journey then you should allow a reasonable amount of time to do this and this includes the potential of being caught in a queue.

However, these points are simply my opinions. I will leave the legal side of things to those more in the know

Ha. But what is a reasonable amount of time to buy a ticket? If I had to turn up half a hour before the train is scheduled it would be quicker - and cheaper - to go by bus.

Last week i turned up ten minutes early and there was a man at the ticket office discussing all the different options for his forthcoming holiday. He was still there when the train arrived and several of us had to board without tickets. Fortunately the train guard was very reasonable.

 

[furlong]

But what is a reasonable amount of time to buy a ticket?

The train companies must use their "reasonable endeavours" to ensure that no-one has to queue for more than 5 minutes at peak times and 3 minutes at off-peak times. Peak and off-peak times are displayed "prominently" at each station (in an area "nearby" that is accessible "at all times"). Then you should add on the time the transaction is likely to take, time to get to the platform, and a bit of contingency.

 

[The_Train]

Ha. But what is a reasonable amount of time to buy a ticket? If I had to turn up half a hour before the train is scheduled it would be quicker - and cheaper - to go by bus.

Last week i turned up ten minutes early and there was a man at the ticket office discussing all the different options for his forthcoming holiday. He was still there when the train arrived and several of us had to board without tickets. Fortunately the train guard was very reasonable.

It really depends on your knowledge of the particular station and the chance of being caught in a queue at a particular time but I would say 10-15 minutes beforehand is reasonable. In the example of the bloke having an in depth conversation about future travel plans, I would have no concern about interrupting to politely ask if I could jump in to get a ticket as I'm wanting to catch the next train. It's hardly unreasonable to expect someone to stand aside in a situation like that (and yes I know this world is not full of reasonable people but surely any ticket office worker would understand?)

 

[The_Train]

The train companies must use their "reasonable endeavours" to ensure that no-one has to queue for more than 5 minutes at peak times and 3 minutes at off-peak times. Peak and off-peak times are displayed "prominently" at each station (in an area "nearby" that is accessible "at all times"). Then you should add on the time the transaction is likely to take, time to get to the platform, and a bit of contingency.

I never knew it was such a short amount of time. Can understand that being possible at a larger station with multiple windows (plus machines) but must be difficult to achieve at a busy but small station with just the 1 ticket window?

 

[dcbwhaley]

It really depends on your knowledge of the particular station and the chance of being caught in a queue at a particular time but I would say 10-15 minutes beforehand is reasonable. In the example of the bloke having an in depth conversation about future travel plans, I would have no concern about interrupting to politely ask if I could jump in to get a ticket as I'm wanting to catch the next train. It's hardly unreasonable to expect someone to stand aside in a situation like that (and yes I know this world is not full of reasonable people but surely any ticket office worker would understand?)

I think that in the case I mentioned a properly trained ticket clerk would have asked the customer to wait until he had

I never knew it was such a short amount of time. Can understand that being possible at a larger station with multiple windows (plus machines) but must be difficult to achieve at a busy but small station with just the 1 ticket window?

Which is why it makes far more sense to sell the tickets on the train rather than at the station. Buses have operated on that principle for over a century without major problems. The present method of operation where the guard - who has responsibility for the safety of the train - has to double as a ticket salesman is ludicrous. There should be a separate customer interface officer selling tickets.

Or, perhaps, the driver should take full responsibility for the safety of the train.

 

[Hadders]

I think that in the case I mentioned a properly trained ticket clerk would have asked the customer to wait until he had



Which is why it makes far more sense to sell the tickets on the train rather than at the station. Buses have operated on that principle for over a century without major problems. The present method of operation where the guard - who has responsibility for the safety of the train - has to double as a ticket salesman is ludicrous. There should be a separate customer interface officer selling tickets.

Or, perhaps, the driver should take full responsibility for the safety of the train.

How you propose to operate selling tickets on board on services into London in the morning peak that are often 12-car full and standing?

 

[The_Train]

I think that in the case I mentioned a properly trained ticket clerk would have asked the customer to wait until he had

Not quite sure what you mean here. Kind of feels like you missed something off the end

Which is why it makes far more sense to sell the tickets on the train rather than at the station. Buses have operated on that principle for over a century without major problems. The present method of operation where the guard - who has responsibility for the safety of the train - has to double as a ticket salesman is ludicrous. There should be a separate customer interface officer selling tickets.

It is quite easy for buses to operate with people buying tickets aboard as there is one carriage where in most cases all passengers enter via one door, compared to a train that is multiple carriages with multiple entrance points. To manage the sale of tickets on board you could potentially need a ticket salesperson in each carriage or only open one set of doors at each stop and have people purchase tickets as they enter (similar to a bus). Let's face it, neither of these are going to work.

Or, perhaps, the driver should take full responsibility for the safety of the train.

Don't let the unions see this