Bluestar Discussion

[83G/84D]

The have indeed, photo of the lineup on Flickr (not my photo - the blue fronts applied over the GNE Red):

Southampton Replacement Buses

Tomorrow 19th Feb 2023 will see GoAhead Bluestar take over the First CityRed services in Southampton, this is the main part of the new fleet ready to see action. Barton Park Eastleigh 18th February 2023 © Copyright PD3

www.flickr.com

Thanks. That was as I saw them today. There were some more examples in a row behind.There were several ex Swindon Optare Versas nearby as well.

 

[nw1]

One question is: will these vehicles be used solely on the new routes, or will they be used on a mix of the new and existing routes?

Likewise, will existing Bluestar vehicles be booked onto any of the new routes at any point in the day?

 

[Surreyman]

One question is: will these vehicles be used solely on the new routes, or will they be used on a mix of the new and existing routes?

Likewise, will existing Bluestar vehicles be booked onto any of the new routes at any point in the day?

The answer, as at 0715 this morning, is that they are using existing Bluestar vehicles on the ex City Reds routes, perhaps not that surprising on a Sunday when much of the fleet is 'idle'. We may have to wait until monday morning to see how it pans out.
I wonder what future plans there are for the Bluestar fleet? - Using 17 year old B7TLs as a 'quick fix' is understandable but for how long?
As others have pointed out, Go Ahead in Oxford is due a large fleet of new electric vehicles later this year, we don't know how cascades to Thames/Carousel or any other Go ahead subsidiaries will pan out but the Oxford fleet contains 14 E400MMC, 4 E400 (originally destined for Southern Vectis) & 15 E400 Hybrids now re-engined with Euro 6 diesels, plus a fleet of E400 bodied Scania 'deckers - all are euro 6 built/upgraded.

 

[M803UYA]

The answer, as at 0715 this morning, is that they are using existing Bluestar vehicles on the ex City Reds routes, perhaps not that surprising on a sunday when much of the fleet is 'idle'. We may have to wait until monday morning to see how it pans out.
I wonder what future plans there are for the Bluestar fleet? - Using 17 year old B7TLs as a 'quick fix' is understandable but for how long?
As others have pointed out, Go Ahead in Oxford is due a large fleet of new electric vehicles later this year, we don't know how cascades to Thames/Carousel or any other Go ahead subsidiaries will pan out but the Oxford fleet contains 14 E400MMC, 4 E400 (originally destined for Southern Vectis) & 15 E400 Hybrids now re-engined with Euro 6 diesels, plus a fleet of E400 bodied Scania 'deckers - all are euro 6 built/upgraded.

There is a waiting time for delivery of new buses. So if you're expanding your operation you need to have stop gap measures in place. New vehicles are normally built to order, very few manufacturers build speculatively for dealer stock that's simply available to the first buyer. Those vehicles do exist, but not in the quantities Go South Coast would want.

Yellow Buses went out of business last summer and Go South Coast have ordered a fleet of new vehicles to run those services. It's going to be almost 12 months from taking over to receiving new vehicles to operate those routes. Supply chain issues with components will have an effect too - that'll slow down the delivery process.

So I'd assume a similar timeframe here - it's the second part of a major expansion by an operator following the exit of another. So these stop gap vehicles may well be here for 12-18 months before disposal.

 

[Surreyman]

There is a waiting time for delivery of new buses. So if you're expanding your operation you need to have stop gap measures in place. New vehicles are normally built to order, very few manufacturers build speculatively for dealer stock that's simply available to the first buyer. Those vehicles do exist, but not in the quantities Go South Coast would want.

Yellow Buses went out of business last summer and Go South Coast have ordered a fleet of new vehicles to run those services. It's going to be almost 12 months from taking over to receiving new vehicles to operate those routes. Supply chain issues with components will have an effect too - that'll slow down the delivery process.

So I'd assume a similar timeframe here - it's the second part of a major expansion by an operator following the exit of another. So these stop gap vehicles may well be here for 12-18 months before disposal.

In terms of Capital spending, in their press releases GSC are quoting 7.7m for 28 E400 for More in Bournemouth & 1.7m for 7 E400 for Southern Vectis, this works out at @£275,000 per vehicle for More & @£242,000 for Southern Vectis, that's a difference of @£33,000 per bus, even allowing for some 'rounding' of figures, it maybe suggests a different specification for the More buses?
To be clear, I am aware that there may be a difference in 'declared Book-Price' and actual price paid, I don't know Go-Aheads preferred ownership model - there seem to be many variations nowadays on the whole range of lease-purchase options.

 

[Dorsetbus]

In terms of Capital spending, in their press releases GSC are quoting 7.7m for 28 E400 for More in Bournemouth & 1.7m for 7 E400 for Southern Vectis, this works out at @£275,000 per vehicle for More & @£242,000 for Southern Vectis, that's a difference of @£33,000 per bus, even allowing for some 'rounding' of figures, it maybe suggests a different specification for the More buses?
To be clear, I am aware that there may be a difference in 'declared Book-Price' and actual price paid, I don't know Go-Aheads preferred ownership model - there seem to be many variations nowadays on the whole range of lease-purchase options.

I belive the morebus ones are of a higher spec, and there's no mention of the new camera wing mirrors. So the Southern Vectis E400 must be lower spec.

 

[M803UYA]

In terms of Capital spending, in their press releases GSC are quoting 7.7m for 28 E400 for More in Bournemouth & 1.7m for 7 E400 for Southern Vectis, this works out at @£275,000 per vehicle for More & @£242,000 for Southern Vectis, that's a difference of @£33,000 per bus, even allowing for some 'rounding' of figures, it maybe suggests a different specification for the More buses?
To be clear, I am aware that there may be a difference in 'declared Book-Price' and actual price paid, I don't know Go-Aheads preferred ownership model - there seem to be many variations nowadays on the whole range of lease-purchase options.

Even if Go South Coast wanted to order vehicles, there'd be a delay in them entering service as they'd have to be built. Unlike Stagecoach, they're not ordering enough vehicles nationally to own a production line in the factory. So there might be a queue to have vehicles built - the smaller operator buys one or two vehicles and will buy 'stock build' to a basic specification. But it's rare for those vehicles to come onto the market. They don't wait around to be sold either...

 

[Surreyman]

Even if Go South Coast wanted to order vehicles, there'd be a delay in them entering service as they'd have to be built. Unlike Stagecoach, they're not ordering enough vehicles nationally to own a production line in the factory. So there might be a queue to have vehicles built - the smaller operator buys one or two vehicles and will buy 'stock build' to a basic specification. But it's rare for those vehicles to come onto the market. They don't wait around to be sold either...

Not sure I understand what you are saying?
Obviously there is a lead time involved between placing an order and taking delivery.
Stagecoaches current orders with ADL are not huge - 200+ E400 diesels and a small number of Electrics, assembly & delivery spread over many months, not sure what you mean by 'owning a production line in a factory?' ADL own the production lines at Falkirk & Scarborough.
The press release indicates that Southern Vectis expect delivery of their 7 E400 in August/September - so around 6 months lead time.

 

[scosutsut]

Not sure I understand what you are saying?
Obviously there is a lead time involved between placing an order and taking delivery.
Stagecoaches current orders with ADL are not huge - 200+ E400 diesels and a small number of Electrics, assembly & delivery spread over many months, not sure what you mean by 'owning a production line in a factory?' ADL own the production lines at Falkirk & Scarborough.
The press release indicates that Southern Vectis expect delivery of their 7 E400 in August/September - so around 6 months lead time.

I suspect he means they don't have other in-flight orders, due sooner to a different part of the group, that they could divert to Bluestar, in a way that a larger group might more likely have?

On a side note, I don't believe the investment numbers they are quoting can be reflective of the purchase price alone. Seems considerably too high in my opinion.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I suspect he means they don't have other in-flight orders, due sooner to a different part of the group, that they could divert to Bluestar, in a way that a larger group might more likely have?

On a side note, I don't believe the investment numbers they are quoting can be reflective of the purchase price alone. Seems considerably too high in my opinion.

Really? The prices look about right to me. Prices for new buses have increased dramatically in the last 6-9 months due to parts inflation, supply chain issues, utility and labour costs.

 

[scosutsut]

Really? The prices look about right to me. Prices for new buses have increased dramatically in the last 6-9 months due to parts inflation, supply chain issues, utility and labour costs.

I've redone my maths and actually you are probably right. Even though at that price I'd hope pretty much every options box is ticked!

 

[43055]

One question is: will these vehicles be used solely on the new routes, or will they be used on a mix of the new and existing routes?

Likewise, will existing Bluestar vehicles be booked onto any of the new routes at any point in the day?

Looks like a mix today of old and new on the new routes. The Go North East deckers are predominantly on the 19 with the Single decks on the 10/13/14/15 but one Versa did end up on the 35/39 in Romsey.

 

[nw1]

Looks like a mix today of old and new on the new routes. The Go North East deckers are predominantly on the 19 with the Single decks on the 10/13/14/15 but one Versa did end up on the 35/39 in Romsey.

I noticed some 20s today, in the morning and early evening. All the ones I saw were the existing "breathe" single-deckers used on some 3 and 16 journeys.

They looked in quite a good state, quite "shiny", not sure if they've been cleaned specially for introduction to the new routes?

Didn't study the operations in detail but I'd guess the 20 is self-contained due to the high frequency. The 10 however needs to interwork with something else due to a round trip of just over an hour.

 

[baza585]

I noticed some 20s today, in the morning and early evening. All the ones I saw were the existing "breathe" single-deckers used on some 3 and 16 journeys.

They looked in quite a good state, quite "shiny", not sure if they've been cleaned specially for introduction to the new routes?

Didn't study the operations in detail but I'd guess the 20 is self-contained due to the high frequency. The 10 however needs to interwork with something else due to a round trip of just over an hour.

10 InterWorks with 13 &14.

There were some serious issues with late running today on certain routes and the controllers seemed reluctant to intervene. Hopefully teething problems.

 

[nw1]

Observed some services today and it's much as described above by @baza585.

In the small time window I observed, the 19 was operated by the "imported" 2006 red and blue double-deckers, the 13, 14 and 15 were operated by the 2010 "imported" green and blue single deckers, while the 20 was run with existing Bluestar single deckers. Didn't see any 10s.

The green and blue vehicles appear to have E3x diagrams, the 20s E5x diagrams, and the 19s E90x (sic) diagrams. (for reference: E1x mostly operate the 1; E2x mostly operate the 2; E4x seem to operate various services; and E8x and E9x are on the 18).

I also noticed the 16 had more single-deckers this week compared to last; not sure if this is as a result of the changes or whether it's related to half-term (which was last week).

Not sure if any tightening up of diagrams has been done to make existing vehicles available for the 20.

 

[Towers]

I wonder if any of the 'imported' stuff will sneak out onto the Bluestar 1 at any point!

 

[nw1]

I wonder if any of the 'imported' stuff will sneak out onto the Bluestar 1 at any point!

Given the "imported" vehicles are older, I'm surprised they haven't deployed them on "lower priority" existing routes (e.g. not the 1 or 2) and given newer vehicles to the newer routes to encourage usage.

 

[Towers]

Given the "imported" vehicles are older, I'm surprised they haven't deployed them on "lower priority" existing routes (e.g. not the 1 or 2) and given newer vehicles to the newer routes to encourage usage.

It's not at all uncommon to see other members of the fleet supplementing the usual MMCs on the service 1, usually either an E400 City or one of the 63 plate E400s, but occasionally an OmniDecker makes it out. I'd imagine every effort will be made to keep the 'temporary' fleet away from the 1, but it's always a possibility!

 

[nw1]

It's not at all uncommon to see other members of the fleet supplementing the usual MMCs on the service 1, usually either an E400 City or one of the 63 plate E400s, but occasionally an OmniDecker makes it out. I'd imagine every effort will be made to keep the 'temporary' fleet away from the 1, but it's always a possibility!

Seems to be a regular trip by an older vehicle on the 1755 out of Southampton, which works in as a short working from Asda.

UPDATE Saturday: This was supposed to be a new post, but has been auto-merged:

Seems to be some significant differences in vehicle allocations on a Saturday, if today is anything to go by.

The blue and green single-deck "imports" don't seem to be out and about on Saturday, from what I can see. The 10, 13 and 14 journeys I saw (between around 1600-1630) were all operated by existing and relatively new Bluestar single-deckers, including the "Breathe" buses.

Meanwhile the 20 seemed to be run with double-deckers, unlike weekdays. Presumably loadings on Saturdays require double-deckers, perhaps from vehicles used for school journeys on Mon-Fri? So the "Breathe" buses get displaced onto the 10, 13 and 14 (and presumably the 15, though I didn't see any).

Seems to be more double-deckers on the 16 too.

The 19, however, appears to be run with the red and blue double-deck "imports", as on Mon-Fri.

 

[ChrisPJ]

Rumour has it,that the former first Depot at empress Road is to be taken over by bluestar.

 

[Beemax]

Rumour has it,that the former first Depot at empress Road is to be taken over by bluestar.

They need something. All the roads in the Barton park estate are chocked full of buses - if not Bluestar or Unilink, then visiting LT buses for refurb

 

[nw1]

Rumour has it,that the former first Depot at empress Road is to be taken over by bluestar.

EDIT - I've seen that supposedly "confirmed" (via a comment) elsewhere, on the Sotonbus blog, with mid-April as the changeover date (April 16, I think). So may or may not be true.

The question is: if true, what services will run out of there, rather than Eastleigh? The new services (10, 13, 14, 15, 19 and 20) all appear to be self-contained within the group (i.e. some interwork with each other, but, they do not interwork with any old services), so one might imagine they would work out of Empress Road. Plus, as has been pointed out on Sotonbus, the 7, 16 and 18, presumably, too, as they are also city services. Again, I don't think these interwork with any out-of-town services.

The other Eastleigh routes (i.e. 1, 2, 3, and 5, plus some 4s and 8s) would presumably continue to work out of Eastleigh?

 

[Surreyman]

I've seen that confirmed elsewhere, on the Sotonbus blog, with mid-April as the changeover date (April 16, I think).

The question is: what services will run out of there, rather than Eastleigh? The new services (10, 13, 14, 15, 19 and 20) all appear to be self-contained within the group (i.e. some interwork with each other, but, they do not interwork with any old services), so one might imagine they would work out of Empress Road. Plus, as has been pointed out on Sotonbus, the 7, 16 and 18, presumably, too, as they are also city services. Again, I don't think these interwork with any out-of-town services.

The other Eastleigh routes (i.e. 1, 2, 3, and 5, plus some 4s and 8s) would presumably continue to work out of Eastleigh?

If this is going to happen I would be interested to know whether they are leasing it or buying the freehold.
Empress Road under First had an operators licence for 127, (could be increased) so could probably take a large part of Eastleigh's allocation. The 1, 2, 3, 5 plus the school routes would probably be best left kept at Eastleigh.
I suspect that some or all of Totton's allocation (Operators licence 47) could be transferred in, ultimately it is all about minimising costs. Is Totton owned or leased?

 

[nw1]

If this is going to happen I would be interested to know whether they are leasing it or buying the freehold.
Empress Road under First had an operators licence for 127, (could be increased) so could probably take a large part of Eastleigh's allocation. The 1, 2, 3, 5 plus the school routes would probably be best left kept at Eastleigh.
I suspect that some or all of Totton's allocation (Operators licence 47) could be transferred in, ultimately it is all about minimising costs. Is Totton owned or leased?

I've got no idea to be honest, it was just a comment on the Soton Bus blog, no detail given, but some speculation about what services would be operated, rather like here.

Perhaps a number of double-deckers could be transferred from Totton for the 17? I can see that it would make more sense operating the 17 out of Empress Road. However I can see that for the 8, 9, 11 and 12 it would be worth keeping Totton open so that journeys can start and end there at both ends of the day.

 

[GusB]

I've got no idea to be honest, it was just a comment on the Soton Bus blog, no detail given, but some speculation about what services would be operated, rather like here.

Perhaps a number of double-deckers could be transferred from Totton for the 17? I can see that it would make more sense operating the 17 out of Empress Road. However I can see that for the 8, 9, 11 and 12 it would be worth keeping Totton open so that journeys can start and end there at both ends of the day.

I'm not sure that a comment on a blog can be taken as a reliable source, so I'd suggest that people use their own judgement as to its accuracy. It would also be helpful if we could actually have a link to and a quote from your source so that others can read for themselves.

 

[nw1]

I'm not sure that a comment on a blog can be taken as a reliable source, so I'd suggest that people use their own judgement as to its accuracy. It would also be helpful if we could actually have a link to and a quote from your source so that others can read for themselves.

OK, it's here:

"Southampton Bus Update" blog, see this comment:

End of an Era: First's Final Day

First City Red operates for the final time today, Saturday 18th February. The very final service they operate will be on route 2 from Millb...

sotonbus.blogspot.com

"Confirmed.. Bluestar have the old First depot."

 

[GusB]

OK, it's here:

"Southampton Bus Update" blog, see this comment:

End of an Era: First's Final Day

First City Red operates for the final time today, Saturday 18th February. The very final service they operate will be on route 2 from Millb...

sotonbus.blogspot.com

That's an anonymous post on an unofficial source. Salt is required!

 

[nw1]

That's an anonymous post on an unofficial source. Salt is required!

Sorry - do we want to edit/remove some of the above posts as a result? Happy to edit/remove mine, I have edited mine already to reflect this.

 

[ReeceD1993]

That's an anonymous post on an unofficial source. Salt is required!

Bus drivers are known to post on the blog and can't comment with their names on display.

 

[M803UYA]

Bus drivers are known to post on the blog and can't comment with their names on display.

Bus drivers aren't always reliable information sources, though. Quite often they'll know more about what's going on than the management, but it should always be taken with a pinch of salt. You may well find a head office employee commenting anonymously on there - in both instances it's a serious breach of the company's social media policy to divulge any information.