Blue & grey railtour stock for Deltics

[LE Greys]

Is it possible to scrape together an entire rake of blue & grey railtour stock, either Mk.I or early Mk.II (say IIc)? I say this after seeing Royal Scots Grey going through with maroon coaches on the back despite being all-blue. I know there's the Cargo-D set, but AIUI Deltics can't haul air-conditioned stock without special modifications - at least not on their own. Preferably, it should be dual-braked as well, which suggests Mk.Is.

Basically, is it possible to have one or two sets of accurately-coloured coaches to run behind a Deltic or a blue Western.

I'm not sure this is the right subforum, so please move it if I've got it wrong.

 

[mumrar]

Is it possible to scrape together an entire rake of blue & grey railtour stock, either Mk.I or early Mk.II (say IIc)? I say this after seeing Royal Scots Grey going through with maroon coaches on the back despite being all-blue. I know there's the Cargo-D set, but AIUI Deltics can't haul air-conditioned stock without special modifications - at least not on their own. Preferably, it should be dual-braked as well, which suggests Mk.Is.

Basically, is it possible to have one or two sets of accurately-coloured coaches to run behind a Deltic or a blue Western.

I'm not sure this is the right subforum, so please move it if I've got it wrong.

Didn't Deltics spend a lot of their working life on air-conditioned mk2 stock? Certainly the photos I've seen from the BR Blue days suggest so, it would seem odd that these would be BRs top link East Coast workings without working aircon.

 

[northernrail]

Maybe its lack of Mainline Registered blue and grey coaches

 

[90019]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAAm4C5LnqY

 

[theblackwatch]

This from 2002 with 55019 in charge...
http://www.jim.nisbet.dsl.pipex.com/rail/55019_blindwells.jpg

 

[4SRKT]

As soon as Mk IId/e/f stock was introduced deltics were hauling it. If it's authenticity you're after, be careful what you wish for as aircons on railtours are a total disaster, especially on tours hauled by thrashy locos. I'd far rather have a rake of mk Is or mk IIa/b/c in any livery than mk IId/e/f or mk III in blue and grey if it means I can hear the loco and get a bit of fresh air.

I've only ever been hauled by deltics IRL in aircon mk IIs (unless I went to the restaurant car of course, which I didn't because my parents were always very careful to bring sandwiches on long journeys). And since I managed to miss 55022 on the main line AGAIN the other weekend, it's still my only experience of them

 

[87015]

Didn't the deltics chiefly get used with Mk2D stock in service rather than the Mk2E/F which has slightly different ETS setup and makes up most of the ex-XC/WC sets used by Riviera/Cargo-D. Certainly remember stories of 55022 leading to a few stock issues (MA sets?) after its Virgin/Anglia trips.

Shame that nice ex- Rail Charter Service (EWS?) rake of blue and grey Mk1s got withdrawn though, was nice inside and out. Some of them ex cobbler stock aswell

 

[4SRKT]

I don't know TBH. Certainly mk IId stock is my favourite of the aircons as it had the superbly comfortable second class seats and nicer wooden veneer internal finish of the PV mk IIs.

As for cobbler stock, I only ever used that on summer Saturdays when it got taken to Aberystwyth behind the 37s. It was never very nice stock after that experience!

 

[ainsworth74]

I know most nicknames for coaching stock, but what on earth is cobbler stock?

 

[4SRKT]

The 'cobbler' stock was several rakes of the most disreputable mk Is you can imagine, that during the week in the 1980s were used on one out and back each from Northampton to Euston at peak times, hauled by an 81 or 85 (I think they may have been vacuum braked only). I think there were 4 of these loco hauled trains up in the mornings, and 4 down in the evening. At weekends they were often used on railtours, but on summer Saturdays three sets were used to work holiday trains to Aberystwyth. These ran from Euston in the paths of the normal 2-hourly Euston > Shrewsbury service that the rest of the time was Oxley aircon mk II stock from the Euston > Birmingham > Wolverhampton workings. From Shrewsbury they were hauled by pairs of 37s to Aberystwyth.

I guess the cobbler reference comes from Northampton's one time position as the shoe making capital of Britain. It also unintentionally refers to the fact that they were a load of rubbish!

 

[ainsworth74]

Interesting, thanks 4SRKT

 

[LE Greys]

Didn't Deltics spend a lot of their working life on air-conditioned mk2 stock? Certainly the photos I've seen from the BR Blue days suggest so, it would seem odd that these would be BRs top link East Coast workings without working aircon.

As soon as Mk IId/e/f stock was introduced deltics were hauling it. If it's authenticity you're after, be careful what you wish for as aircons on railtours are a total disaster, especially on tours hauled by thrashy locos. I'd far rather have a rake of mk Is or mk IIa/b/c in any livery than mk IId/e/f or mk III in blue and grey if it means I can hear the loco and get a bit of fresh air.

I've only ever been hauled by deltics IRL in aircon mk IIs (unless I went to the restaurant car of course, which I didn't because my parents were always very careful to bring sandwiches on long journeys). And since I managed to miss 55022 on the main line AGAIN the other weekend, it's still my only experience of them

I've looked this up, and apparently the problem was that Deltic ETS comes directly off one of the main generators, because they had to switch from steam heating to electric and there simply was not enough space inside to put in a separate generator. This led to voltage fluctuations in the supply (does anyone remember if the lights got brighter or dimmer when on the move?) and would have screwed up the motor-alternators in the air-con. Some stock was fitted with modified motor-alternators, and that solved the problem, although I don't quite know how.

I quite agree with 4SRKT, give me IIc's any day!

 

[sprinterguy]

I've looked this up, and apparently the problem was that Deltic ETS comes directly off one of the main generators, because they had to switch from steam heating to electric and there simply was not enough space inside to put in a separate generator. This led to voltage fluctuations in the supply (does anyone remember if the lights got brighter or dimmer when on the move?) and would have screwed up the motor-alternators in the air-con. Some stock was fitted with modified motor-alternators, and that solved the problem, although I don't quite know how.

I quite agree with 4SRKT, give me IIc's any day!

Yeah, that was it: I could remember reading in the past that some sort of modification had to be made for Deltics to provide ETS, as pulling power straight out of the generators, with the associated fluxes in power for the auxillaries, caused problems, but I couldn’t remember exactly what went on. Now that you’ve said it, I’m sure I’ve got an old Ian Allan Coaching Stock pocket book that has an asterisk next to certain coaches with a footnote reading “Modified to work with Class 55 Deltic locomotives” or something. Maybe I’m imagining it, but I might see if I can check it out later to satisfy my own curiosity.

The East Coast was one of the first routes to get aircon mark 2s (1971 onwards perhaps?), so the Deltcis will have spent the larger proportion of their working lives, especially in the later blue/grey era, on aircons.

 

[Masbroughlad]

It would be good to see one of the rakes of mainline registered mark one sets painted up in blue and grey. And/or any mk2a and mk2bs there are around.

Mind you, mark ones and older mark 2s haven't got much mainline life left have they???

 

[4SRKT]

When did ETH become ETS anyway?

 

[sprinterguy]

When did ETH become ETS anyway?

ETH is a throw back to the change over from steam heating to electric, when the change only affected the method of heating, given that the lighting had already been electric in steam heat days and there was nothing much else that required an electricity supply on any carriage before mark 2D (Except the PA system). The newer term of “Train supply” reflects the greater number of “gadgets” that have to be powered from the auxillary power on modern trains: Heating, lighting, air conditioning, PIS displays, exterior doors, toilet doors, electronic reservation screens, onboard software systems…

Additionally, it was still "ETH" in 1993 according to the Platform 5 combined volume! I'll have to hunt out some more recent ones to see when Plat 5 decided it changed...

 

[87015]

I always use EH for engines but on a thread about stock and aircon ETS seemed more appropriate to try and explain something I'm far from 100% on anyway.

 

[sprinterguy]

Looks like Platform 5 started using the term "Train supply" instead of ETH in 2000: I blame the imminent arrival of the Voyagers, seeing as they seem to get blamed for everything else